Dr. Gonzo Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, Cicero said: You genuinely don’t get it. Any young player with inexperience will surely have a patch of inconsistency when they are being played week in week out. Let alone at clubs that are struggling. You even stated you’d have Mount over Pogba when the former hit the ground running at the start of the season. You honestly can’t comprehend how football works on a mental aspect for young players being thrown into the water and asked to swim. The fact you mentioned TAA and conveniently missed the glaring obvious he was shite defensively his first season proves that. It has everything to do with their mental state. Jesus Christ. They hit the ground running and were at a point the highest goal scoring striker and midfielder in the league. They are being asked to play every game and you don’t think it would exhaust them mentally? Have you ever played football before? And yes. Beckham has made shit decisions and had patches of inconsistency when he was young. Virtually every young player being played every game has patches of inconsistency. To think otherwise is daft. You in a nutshell. Sorry but the narrative that TAA was utter dogshit defensively in his first seasons a bit ridiculous. He was pretty clearly our best RB, offensively or defensively. We were a shambles defensively that season. But I guess some people just have a hard time understanding context
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Sorry but the narrative that TAA was utter dogshit defensively in his first seasons a bit ridiculous. He was pretty clearly our best RB, offensively or defensively. We were a shambles defensively that season. But I guess some people just have a hard time understanding context Ridiculous is to suggest otherwise. I’ve virtually lost track of the amount of times he was beaten by an attacker or caught out of position his first season under Klopp. Teso was wrong about a lot of things but his obsession in highlighting TAA’s flaws that first season served a good purpose in analysing his performance. The whole telling point was how he needed to improve defensively, and look what happened after couple seasons. A shambles defensively but our golden boy was the exception.
LFCMadLad Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 Fuck me, now a drop in form means you are mentally drained. And yes, I would take Mounds over Pogba. One is a young player just finding his way whilst trying his hardest every single game. The other is a dabbing wanker, a toxic presence that will cause more problems in the dressing room than he solves. Anyone who would want Pogba anywhere near their club cannot be trusted.
Dr. Gonzo Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, Cicero said: Ridiculous is to suggest otherwise. I’ve virtually lost track of the amount of times he was beaten by an attacker or caught out of position his first season under Klopp. Teso was wrong about a lot of things but his obsession in highlighting TAA’s flaws that first season served a good purpose in analysing his performance. The whole telling point was how he needed to improve defensively, and look what happened after couple seasons. A shambles defensively but our golden boy was the exception. Everyone was shit defensively in his first season, the whole defense was shit - so is it any surprise the 18 year old was also shit
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 Just now, Dr. Gonzo said: Everyone was shit defensively in his first season, the whole defense was shit - so is it any surprise the 18 year old was also shit Which is my point! Bloody hell I'm done talking with Liverpool supporters.
LFCMadLad Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 19 minutes ago, Cicero said: Ridiculous is to suggest otherwise. I’ve virtually lost track of the amount of times he was beaten by an attacker or caught out of position his first season under Klopp. Teso was wrong about a lot of things but his obsession in highlighting TAA’s flaws that first season served a good purpose in analysing his performance. The whole telling point was how he needed to improve defensively, and look what happened after couple seasons. A shambles defensively but our golden boy was the exception. You've lost the plot. Taking the word of fucking Teso over hundreds of people that see Trent play week in week out. Trent isnt perfect defensively, butbthats because he's not asked to be. Of course he occasionally gets caught positionaly high up the pitch because that's where hes being asked to play. If we wanted a fullback that is solid in position we would bring bloody Gary Neville out of retirement.
LFCMadLad Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, Cicero said: Bloody hell I'm done talking with Liverpool supporters. Thank fuck for that.
Dr. Gonzo Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, Cicero said: Which is my point! Bloody hell I'm done talking with Liverpool supporters. Is it your point? Because he came in as an 18 year old and was better than Clyne was in the same position. But you want to bang on about his defensive frailty. Even though he was performing better than the senior player that came before him. But oh no I guess we’re insufferable then and we should just take your word on the supposed mental state of a player based on guessing how they’re feeling after they’re out of form.
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Is it your point? Because he came in as an 18 year old and was better than Clyne was in the same position. But you want to bang on about his defensive frailty. Even though he was performing better than the senior player that came before him. But oh no I guess we’re insufferable then and we should just take your word on the supposed mental state of a player based on guessing how they’re feeling after they’re out of form. Ok. I’ll try and make this as simple as possible. Why couldn’t an 18 year old TAA, who was thrown into the team ahead of a senior player, be consistently good on the defensive end during his first season in the premier league?
Dr. Gonzo Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Cicero said: Ok. I’ll try and make this as simple as possible. Why couldn’t an 18 year old TAA, who was thrown into the team ahead of a senior player, be consistently good on the defensive end during his first season in the premier league? Because we were shit defensively because we had no Virgil and our defense was consistently poor. Our side massively improved defensively and yeah a part of that is he improved as he got older. Another part of that is we brought in a brilliant defensive leader that changed our defense from the moment he joined us. And then later we signed a goalkeeper.
LFCMadLad Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cicero said: Ok. I’ll try and make this as simple as possible. Why couldn’t an 18 year old TAA, who was thrown into the team ahead of a senior player, be consistently good on the defensive end during his first season in the premier league? Well it could be that he was learning his trade as a youngster, meaning his form inevitably would fluctuate. That or he was mentally drained
The Artful Dodger Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 TAA also had a world class manager and not dilettante, tory boy Frank.
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Our side massively improved defensively and yeah a part of that is he improved as he got older. Ahh and there lies the answer. Football is as much a physical sport as it is mental. Some bellends fail to comprehend that. Young players being thrown in don’t have the experience to perform consistently. Mental fatigue being one of the biggest factors, especially to those playing week in week out as they’ve never experienced playing both in Europe and the grueling nature of the PL. Hence why you’d see during his first season TAA would have a great game defensively and then a poor one. At times patches. That is my point. Seems like you didn’t even read this thread and merely jumped right in after seeing criticism of TAA TAA started to improve consistently after experience and when Liverpool as a team did. So why can’t Mount or James be given that same benefit of the doubt?
The Artful Dodger Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Cicero said: Ahh and there lies the answer. Football is as much a physical sport as it is mental. Some bellends fail to comprehend that. Young players being thrown in don’t have the experience to perform consistently. Mental fatigue being one of the biggest factors, especially to those playing week in week out as they’ve never experienced playing both in Europe and the grueling nature of the PL. Hence why you’d see during his first season TAA would have a great game defensively and then a poor one. At times patches. That is my point. Seems like you didn’t even read this thread and merely jumped right in after seeing criticism of TAA TAA started to improve consistently after experience and when Liverpool as a team did. So why can’t Mount or James be given that same benefit of the doubt? In fairness Mount is 2 years older than TAA, when he started playing premier league football, and James 3 years older. Mount has been treated as some sort of golden boy because he's English. In reality he's done no better than Harry Wilson has at Bournemouth (in a far worse team), who is never mentioned at all.
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: In fairness Mount is 2 years older than TAA, when he started playing premier league football, and James 3 years older. Mount has been treated as some sort of golden boy because he's English. In reality he's done no better than Harry Wilson has at Bournemouth (in a far worse team), who is never mentioned at all. He has. Mount was part of our dominating youth team both domestically and in Europe, won POTY in the Dutch league for Vitesse and was in the league’s TOTS. He’s rated because everywhere he’s gone he’s excelled. This isn’t an argument of who will be better. It’s an argument of improvement comes with experience.
The Artful Dodger Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, Cicero said: He has. Mount was part of our dominating youth team both domestically and in Europe, won POTY in the Dutch league for Vitesse and was in the league’s TOTS. He’s rated because everywhere he’s gone he’s excelled. This isn’t an argument of who will be better. It’s an argument of improvement comes with experience. Irrelevant to this discussion, which is about playing at the top level. I agree that improvement comes with experience, but it was Chelsea fans telling us how wonderful he was so seems a bit cheeky asking others to be more patient now.
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: Irrelevant to this discussion, which is about playing at the top level. I agree that improvement comes with experience, but it was Chelsea fans telling us how wonderful he was so seems a bit cheeky asking others to be more patient now. How’s it irrelevant? You’ve asked reasons why the media rated Mount higher than Wilson. I told you that Mount has a better track record in top flight football given his time in the Eredivisie. I think any club and their fans owe it to be patient with their young promising players. Just because the limelight is on us doesn’t make that statement any less true.
The Artful Dodger Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cicero said: How’s it irrelevant? You’ve asked reasons why the media rated Mount higher than Wilson. I told you that Mount has a better track record in top flight football given his time in the Eredivisie. I think any club and their fans owe it to be patient with their young promising players. Just because the limelight is on us doesn’t make that statement any less true. It's not top level football. The only comparison worth making is their time at Derby, where they both performed adequately and are now both performing ok but not notably well in the top flight. Well maybe don't be so premature next time, overhyping Chelsea's youth has long been an issue and it's happening again.
Dr. Gonzo Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 40 minutes ago, Cicero said: Ahh and there lies the answer. Football is as much a physical sport as it is mental. Some bellends fail to comprehend that. Young players being thrown in don’t have the experience to perform consistently. Mental fatigue being one of the biggest factors, especially to those playing week in week out as they’ve never experienced playing both in Europe and the grueling nature of the PL. Hence why you’d see during his first season TAA would have a great game defensively and then a poor one. At times patches. That is my point. Seems like you didn’t even read this thread and merely jumped right in after seeing criticism of TAA TAA started to improve consistently after experience and when Liverpool as a team did. So why can’t Mount or James be given that same benefit of the doubt? Well done ignoring most of my post Obviously I think any young player, Mount included, will get better by playing more and gaining experience. I just don’t buy into this notion of mental fatigue. If they’re fatigued it’s likely actual physical fatigue - unless they come out and say they’re mentally fatigued
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: It's not top level football. The only comparison worth making is their time at Derby, where they both performed adequately and are now both performing ok but not notably well in the top flight. Well maybe don't be so premature next time, overhyping Chelsea's youth has long been an issue and it's happening again. Their careers didn’t start at Derby. Mount’s prior was better than Wilsons’, hence the attention. Premature? I fully back what I said previously about Mount and I’ll say it to this day. He’s going to be a quality player. Convenient of neutrals to downplay his ability when the club is performing inconsistently post Hazard and under a new manager. 4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: I just don’t buy into this notion of mental fatigue. If they’re fatigued it’s likely actual physical fatigue - unless they come out and say they’re mentally fatigued If you can’t grasp the concept of mental fatigue in athletes, particularly young athletes, this argument is done. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/31081474/
The Artful Dodger Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 The only fair comparison is when they started playing at the same level...together. Ok, Wilson has 18 months on Mount but Mount has done very little to suggest he's worthy of going to the Euros. You make out if Chelsea are going through some awful time, yet you're vastly wealthy, spent huge sums on Pulisic in anticipation of your ban (for illegaly poaching young players btw, this wasn't something that came from nothing) and have a side that came third and won the Europa League last year. This isn't some 'against all odds' tale of heroism, you're having a mediocre year because of your manager and players, not external forces.
Cicero Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: The only fair comparison is when they started playing at the same level...together. Ok, Wilson has 18 months on Mount but Mount has done very little to suggest he's worthy of going to the Euros. I’ve literally stated a couple weeks ago Maddison and Grealish both deserve to be well ahead of Mount. Who exactly is on about him going to the Euros? 5 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said: This isn't some 'against all odds' tale of heroism, you're having a mediocre year because of your manager and players, not external forces. Who has suggested otherwise?
Administrator Stan Posted February 3, 2020 Administrator Posted February 3, 2020 I don't get how mental fatigue can be written off just because someone is young.
The Artful Dodger Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, Cicero said: I’ve literally stated a couple weeks ago Maddison and Grealish both deserve to be well ahead of Mount. Who exactly is on about him going to the Euros? Who has suggested otherwise? Your manager for one! I think you’re right, Mount will come good again but there was certainly clamouring for him to be an England starter.
Dr. Gonzo Posted February 3, 2020 Posted February 3, 2020 I don't know how you can infer mental fatigue from a player without them coming out and saying they're mentally fatigued. It's obviously a thing otherwise clubs wouldn't employ psychologists. I just have a hard time believing fans can just see a player and definitively know their mental state from the form they're in. You could say things like "it looks like he's lacking in confidence" or "he looks like he might be mentally fatigued" - and that could well be true. But definitively stating he has mental fatigue... it's a bit weird. None of us actually knows what's going on in any players' head. Either way I think Mount looks promising and I think there's more to his game than Harry Wilson, who's just got a good shot on him but his all around game needs shitloads of improvement. And I think with young players, just because they're older than certain players that have come out and really made a name for themselves because they're truly special talents, that doesn't mean a player still doesn't have a lot of room to grow. Look at Jordan Henderson, at Mount's age shitloads of people had written him off. Even after he'd won over Liverpool fans, you'd still see people had their opinions of the player from when the player first made their breakthrough as a first team football and were saying shite about him that wasn't really reflective of how he was actually playing. And then when people would actually watch him play - either for us in the CL or for England they'd say shite like "wow Henderson's done surprisingly well" although it wouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who'd been watching how he'd improved. Mount's done enough this season to where you can see he'll likely grow into a very very good player if he's given chances at Chelsea. Him being out of form a bit in a season where Chelsea have been pretty inconsistent as a young side with a young manager doesn't surprise me. He's still learning his craft and so is his manager.
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