Explosion at Manchester MEN Arena

[Fairy In Boots]

45 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Mate...  There are constitutional laws and as much as I agree with you on that one, there's no way you could ever validate forcing national born citizens to have to apply for permission (VISA) to return to their country of birth.  It's up to our security forces to control these people and as hard as that is (the government can start by not cutting on the police forces anymore) that's the only option available.

You can severely limit accessibility to certain countries. And if you do go you need a visa, yes it will require law changes but so what

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

yes it will require law changes but so what

Indeed...  It requires law changes and I don't know how any country would get past it because it's a legal citizen and belongs to said nation on return.  What if the country he/she has travelled to doesn't want them there and sends them back without having committed a known crime to them?

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Indeed...  It requires law changes and I don't know how any country would get past it because it's a legal citizen and belongs to said nation on return.  What if the country he/she has travelled to doesn't want them there and sends them back without having committed a known crime to them?

Since when has the west given a fuck when there's a desire to do something? We pay lip service and hide behind excuses but when the wheels of motion are turning we become very selective about what we adhere to.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 1:38 PM, Batard said:

I stand corrected. And I do agree  that known extremists should not be permitted entrance into the UK, but that isn't always going to be so easy. Rarely are thing so cut and dried 

Agreed 100%. We've clearly got to do something about extremists who can leave and come back after being trained in conducting terror attacks. I don't know how, particularly, we would go about that. It is also certain to cause some global tension, because aside from barring reentry to those who've been to Syria and Libya, if we want to really take a stand against it we'd also have to do things like be weary of people coming back from Saudi Arabia too. And I'm sure they would take that as a slight - and even people like Trump and Bannon with their Muslim ban did not want to include the Saudis. I suspect being oil rich makes them less scary...somehow?

I think another part of the problem is we've got social media companies that simply are not doing enough to regulate the content posted to them. ISIS loves twitter and has social media managers, like a company, and their goal is to radicalise young and impressionable Muslims to join their holy war. And with all of the homegrown terrorists we're seeing in Europe, you've got to say they've been successful in radicalising them With social media being what it is and so widespread, how long until more people ask if Twitter, Facebook, etc. have a responsibility to do more to stop the burgeoning radicalisation of our youths? And then that's a tricky situation because how do we balance open expression and ideas of free speech against the clear danger posed by social media being used as a tool for radicals?

I also think more should be done to ensure Muslims who do come in can have an easy time assimilating. I say this as someone who's mother and uncles fled a revolution in the middle east to come to the UK & assimilated pretty quickly (granted Iran of 1979 was probably more similar to the west than most, if not all, places in the Middle East) - assimilation does not mean you have to abandon the culture of your people and replace it with that of your new home. And I don't think we should be asking people to fuck off generations of their culture. But we should absolutely be asking people who come to live here to adopt our social norms and embrace our ideals. Why would you flee war and idiot zealots only to try to make your new home more similar to the place you fled from? Smaller countries like Norway do a lot in the way of providing government assistance to help immigrants assimilate to Norwegian life. But I imagine that is pretty expensive to do, and as a result we'd probably have to take in a lot less immigrants and refugees. And at some point, you'd have to expect that immigrant communities should also help the assimilation process as well.

We as a nation should be against radicals (from everywhere, whatever religion, and whatever race/ethnicity), and not Muslims generally. I advocate radical intolerance of radicals, essentially

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agreed 100%. We've clearly got to do something about extremists who can leave and come back after being trained in conducting terror attacks. I don't know how, particularly, we would go about that. It is also certain to cause some global tension, because aside from barring reentry to those who've been to Syria and Libya, if we want to really take a stand against it we'd also have to do things like be weary of people coming back from Saudi Arabia too. And I'm sure they would take that as a slight - and even people like Trump and Bannon with their Muslim ban did not want to include the Saudis. I suspect being oil rich makes them less scary...somehow?

I think another part of the problem is we've got social media companies that simply are not doing enough to regulate the content posted to them. ISIS loves twitter and has social media managers, like a company, and their goal is to radicalise young and impressionable Muslims to join their holy war. And with all of the homegrown terrorists we're seeing in Europe, you've got to say they've been successful in radicalising them With social media being what it is and so widespread, how long until more people ask if Twitter, Facebook, etc. have a responsibility to do more to stop the burgeoning radicalisation of our youths? And then that's a tricky situation because how do we balance open expression and ideas of free speech against the clear danger posed by social media being used as a tool for radicals?

I also think more should be done to ensure Muslims who do come in can have an easy time assimilating. I say this as someone who's mother and uncles fled a revolution in the middle east to come to the UK & assimilated pretty quickly (granted Iran of 1979 was probably more similar to the west than most, if not all, places in the Middle East) - assimilation does not mean you have to abandon the culture of your people and replace it with that of your new home. And I don't think we should be asking people to fuck off generations of their culture. But we should absolutely be asking people who come to live here to adopt our social norms and embrace our ideals. Why would you flee war and idiot zealots only to try to make your new home more similar to the place you fled from? Smaller countries like Norway do a lot in the way of providing government assistance to help immigrants assimilate to Norwegian life. But I imagine that is pretty expensive to do, and as a result we'd probably have to take in a lot less immigrants and refugees. And at some point, you'd have to expect that immigrant communities should also help the assimilation process as well.

We as a nation should be against radicals (from everywhere, whatever religion, and whatever race/ethnicity), and not Muslims generally. I advocate radical intolerance of radicals, essentially

You can't bar re-entry of a legal citizen of your country and much less one that was born there.  It's ridiculous although I wish it weren't like that.  So in effect what we're saying is that we would impose a terrorist or whatever you want to call that person on another country?  Under what law or even ethics would or could that work.

[Honey Honey]

38 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

You can't bar re-entry of a legal citizen of your country and much less one that was born there.  It's ridiculous although I wish it weren't like that.  So in effect what we're saying is that we would impose a terrorist or whatever you want to call that person on another country?  Under what law or even ethics would or could that work.

You can already do it if the person in question also has citizenship of another country. What you cannot do is make someone stateless. 

The legal framework exists for a chunk of it. How you do it in practice is another issue. With the Manchester bomber for example he and his brothers might have been entitled to Libyan passports but they could easily have not taken them up and gone to Libya on British passports. That will be the loop hole they will start using, but no matter what you do you will be chasing these people around. They're like corporations looking to dodge tax. You'll always be one step behind.

[SirBalon]

43 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

You can already do it if the person in question also has citizenship of another country. What you cannot do is make someone stateless. 

The legal framework exists for a chunk of it. How you do it in practice is another issue. With the Manchester bomber for example he and his brothers might have been entitled to Libyan passports but they could easily have not taken them up and gone to Libya on British passports. That will be the loop hole they will start using, but no matter what you do you will be chasing these people around. They're like corporations looking to dodge tax. You'll always be one step behind.

Indeed I'm talking about someone who's born here and has sole nationality of the state he was born in.  Obviously you could coax the nation he travelled to or maybe passed through as a wanted terrorist and force a hold there if you have good relations with that state.  But under normal regulations a sole citizen is permitted always to return to his country of origin.  If he has done no crime within your borders or know of any crime you can use against him in another state, he or she is then allowed to roam free.  It's unfortunate but I don't see how something like that can be amended without taking away human rights which in effect could include us all.

[Honey Honey]

15 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Indeed I'm talking about someone who's born here and has sole nationality of the state he was born in.  Obviously you could coax the nation he travelled to or maybe passed through as a wanted terrorist and force a hold there if you have good relations with that state.  But under normal regulations a sole citizen is permitted always to return to his country of origin.  If he has done no crime within your borders or know of any crime you can use against him in another state, he or she is then allowed to roam free.  It's unfortunate but I don't see how something like that can be amended without taking away human rights which in effect could include us all.

As a last resort you can drop them off on a Greek island and the Germans will pick them up as part of their world war 2 reparations. 

[Smiley Culture]

Released in the news today that this could have potentially been stopped. A sad indictment of the levels of under funding and under staffing the Police force in this country receives.

[Fairy In Boots]

Even if we chucked billions at the police the numbers of potential terrorist are unmanageable, that’s the harsh reality. 

It’s a culture we need to change not more anti terrorism police, we’re putting on plasters when we need several stitches. It will get worse as numbers increase and we keep lying to ourselves about the problem we face.

[Smiley Culture]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Even if we chucked billions at the police the numbers of potential terrorist are unmanageable, that’s the harsh reality. 

It’s a culture we need to change not more anti terrorism police, we’re putting on plasters when we need several stitches. It will get worse as numbers increase and we keep lying to ourselves about the problem we face.

Shock you’re blaming the foreigns again. 

[Fairy In Boots]

16 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Shock you’re blaming the foreigns again. 

Where have I mentioned foreigners BDTC? 

[Smiley Culture]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Where have I mentioned foreigners BDTC? 

Just your usual sweeping assumptions. This time it’s that the UK is overrun with terrorists and that the police isn’t understaffed and underfunded, when it clearly is and that’s been proven numerous times. 

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, Smiley Culture said:

Just your usual sweeping assumptions. This time it’s that the UK is overrun with terrorists and that the police isn’t understaffed and underfunded, when it clearly is and that’s been proven numerous times. 

Lmao god you’re a moron. I never mentioned foreigners you brought them up. It’s you that naturally assumed that I was talking about foreign nationals when I use the term terrorist and you have the gall to accuse of racism 😂

You literally are a sjw meme  😂

I never speculated as to the origin of these terror suspects, from experience I’d say an awful lot are home grown, hence the “culture” we need to tackle bit.

 I just said that we’re dealing with a large unmanageable number. Which we are, MI5 pretty much said so this week.

Lets be fair we’re currently in a  week in which the majority of our news & media tried to deride Trump for telling May “to focus on the issue” and are reporting about a plot to assassinate her in the next breath. 

Basically BDTC you’re a weapon, a total fucking weapon with absolutely no idea what’s going on. All your little brain tells you to do is stand up for the foreigners (who nobody’s attacking) because they can’t do it themselves. The fact you think they need you to virtue signal for them like the knight in shining armour you are speaks of a condescending attitude towards them, I know what I’d consider as racial prejudice in the last few comments on this thread and it’s not mine. 😂

[Smiley Culture]

24 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

I mean yeah, there's hundreds of English at it. 

RacistIsABigot is just blaming terrorists and using sweeping accusations about figures whilst missing my point that understaffing and cuts have decimated the police force and the Manchester attack not being foiled is down to the governments treatment of the forces in the UK not negligence nor any other reason used to have a dig at the police. 

[Smiley Culture]

14 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Lmao god you’re a moron. I never mentioned foreigners you brought them up. It’s you that naturally assumed that I was talking about foreign nationals when I use the term terrorist and you have the gall to accuse of racism 😂

You literally are a sjw meme  😂

I never speculated as to the origin of these terror suspects, from experience I’d say an awful lot are home grown, hence the “culture” we need to tackle bit.

 I just said that we’re dealing with a large unmanageable number. Which we are, MI5 pretty much said so this week.

Lets be fair we’re currently in a  week in which the majority of our news & media tried to deride Trump for telling May “to focus on the issue” and are reporting about a plot to assassinate her in the next breath. 

Basically BDTC you’re a weapon, a total fucking weapon with absolutely no idea what’s going on. All your little brain tells you to do is stand up for the foreigners (who nobody’s attacking) because they can’t do it themselves. The fact you think they need you to virtue signal for them like the knight in shining armour you are speaks of a condescending attitude towards them, I know what I’d consider as racial prejudice in the last few comments on this thread and it’s not mine. 😂

I’m not standing up for anyone. Something needs to be done, attack’s have been normalised and accepted, I know that. We live on a cycle in the UK but I’m not daft enough to use my own personal prejudice and hatred to tarnish people, which you do numerous times on here.

 I just see racism, homophobia and sweeping assumptions (I mean, you know a gay, you can’t be a homophobe) from you and call you out on them, which you get the camel about. You’re a dunce who makes assumptive comments about various things, of which nearly all are totally wrong and often crass, too. 

I meant, you’re now a Police spokesman. You’ve got some serious hats. 

[Fairy In Boots]

6 hours ago, Smiley Culture said:

I’m not standing up for anyone. Something needs to be done, attack’s have been normalised and accepted, I know that. We live on a cycle in the UK but I’m not daft enough to use my own personal prejudice and hatred to tarnish people, which you do numerous times on here.

 I just see racism, homophobia and sweeping assumptions (I mean, you know a gay, you can’t be a homophobe) from you and call you out on them, which you get the camel about. You’re a dunce who makes assumptive comments about various things, of which nearly all are totally wrong and often crass, too. 

I meant, you’re now a Police spokesman. You’ve got some serious hats. 

 Lol so you’re justification is because you determine I make sweeping assumptions.

You then go on to make a sweeping assumption that because I once cracked a gay joke I’m a homophobe 😂. You scorn the fact that I said the gays I knew would have laughed. It’s a sweeping assumption that that’s not the case surely? You’re like a sjw feminist type with things like this there’s no grey area with you it seems. Most gays I know and it’s quite a few over the years have always had a very crass sense of humour with near the knuckle gags being well received. Obviously there’s a context to the delivery but they determine the intent themselves at the time of delivery.  (Granted assumption from me there on calling you a sjw type)

You then determine it to be racism because I talk in less than complimentary terms about “Muslims”. I’ve said numerous times now that Islam is an ideology that has followers that aren’t racially specific. I think on the odd occasion I’ve said that I pity them because in my view they’re brainwashed idiots, it’s hardly calling them a racial slur. Although you however seem absolutely fine with making the assumption that by “Muslims” we’re talking about someone of a different skin tone. Yet we have a white Balkan Muslim member that gets pissy because I think little of the ideology that was forced violently upon his ancestors, do we not? 

You also previously been happy to brand me as a racist “EDL type” on occasion. I’ve never once posted a pro EDL post across either forum. This is again a sweeping assumption on your part. 

 If you must know I think the EDL are their own worst enemies, the fact they let their legitimate distrust of Islam manifests into often mislead racism allows for regressive leftist types (which I think you’re one, assumption but based off continued interaction) to counter and subvert a legitimate argument that as a society we all need to address. Because of that I take a dim view of them, obviously the racism is idiotic but so is the irony of what they’re doing. 

On on the actual point about numbers, you seem to think more funding for police will have an effect. I disagree it may help prevent attacks in terms of catching them when they’re about to commit an atrocity but it’s doing nothing to stem the flow.  We can keep giving money to the police/secret service  but if they’re trying to keep tabs on 20k potential terrorists they must prioritise on what they determine is urgent and you’re not going to catch them all. 

If we fight this end of the problem it’s great but the real work needs to go into making sure that 20k becomes 0 not grows to 30k or 40k which is what it’s looking like at present because we keep getting hung up on “racism” or “acceptance of their culture”.

 My plaster rather than stitch analogy was basically this, or another way we’re fucking around mopping up water but the taps still running (love an analogy).

I’ve said numerous times throughout the multitude of topics addressing this issue.  That’s it’s a cultural war we need to fight, we need to force integration, break down social barriers and change the rhetoric being taught within the Islamic community. Of course you’ll have to do some harsh but fair things here, insisting upon gay rites, women’s equality, banning religious slaughter of animals, banning face veils and faith schools (across the board) promoting science over creationism and stemming the influx of migration and deporting bad apples to allow greater intergration. At present all of this is labelled “racist” and right wing but it’s people management and social conditioning, that is the cure.  I’m the only fucker to suggest it on this forum. I think otherwise we’ll carry on as we are into sectarian violence down the road, we already have block voting patterns based upon religious faith it does not bode well long term. 

One of my interests is history I spend a lot of time watching and reading about it and historically there’s a pattern to the spread of Islam, I respect its potency and effectiveness and have a healthy fear of it. That’s why I’m like a dog with a bone about it, it’s not because I don’t like people with different skin colours. I just don’t like the idea of living in a country where Islamic law has any sort of legitimacy at all. 

I’ll conceed at times I’ve probably not articulated my option very diplomatically and spoken out of anger on the issue but in fairness we’re on a football forum with 150 sad cunts reading it then cycling onto debate about who’s better CR7 or Messi? I don’t see why I need to be squeaky clean with my P’s & Q’s most are able to parse my spiel to understand my point in the topic. Others just brush it off as “rascism or bigotry” but that’s down to them basically being ignorant or making an assumption about me because of a option I hold (yourself very much included). 

Not that it matters to you because someone expressing an option based upon their experience is a “sweeping generalisation”.  My family are pretty much career social servants ranging from immediate family to aunties and uncles across sectors such as the CPS, job Center / benefits agency, social workers in and around the very ethnically diverse Birmingham. I hear all their experiences & I spend a day a week in old industrial Birmingham which are 90-95% Muslim populations, I interact with all faiths & nationalities on a daily basis. I’m no middle Englander I’ve been in this city for 30+ years now I’m telling you we’re socially divided and there’s problems coming if we don’t act. Ignore at your leisure but I’ll keep calling it as I find it. Let’s be fair I said terrorism would get worse several years back and people were scornful then, they’ve gone quiet now. 

 

 

[Stan]

Abedi sentenced to 55 years in jail.