Administrator Stan Posted June 24 Author Administrator Share Posted June 24 2 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said: However you look at it the loss against Hungary was the decessive match. And no Scotland wouldn't have become a better side by some weird magic if the'd won against Switzerland. Not weird magic, but do you not think they'd have gone into it with a bit more confidence and less pressure, knowing a draw would have been suitable? Not necessarily a better side, but mentally they might have approached it differently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnersaurus Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 @Inverted what would you think about a foreign manager? Didn't go to well last time but doesn't mean it will go badly again. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rucksackfranzose Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Stan said: Not weird magic, but do you not think they'd have gone into it with a bit more confidence and less pressure, knowing a draw would have been suitable? Not necessarily a better side, but mentally they might have approached it differently... Are you trying to tell me Scotland lost the match yesterday because they tried so hard to win and were countered? Scotland had their first chance in the second half in a must win match, mind. If anything they'd played even less adventurous if they'd won the match against Switzerland. Edited June 24 by Rucksackfranzose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 20 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Are you trying to tell me Scotland lost the match yesterday because they tried so hard to win and were countered? Scotland had their first chance in the second half in a must win match, mind. If anything they'd played even less adventurous if they'd won the match against Switzerland. Under Clarke, this Scottish team should be really happy with any point they gained. That draw result against Switzerland was an achievement for Clarke's Scotland. The fact of the matter is that all 3 teams in this group are stronger than Clarke's Scotland, even Hungary. Hopefully the new manager of Scotland will get more out of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 46 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said: @Inverted what would you think about a foreign manager? Didn't go to well last time but doesn't mean it will go badly again. What do you think? Yeah, lets bring back Berti Vogts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted June 24 Author Administrator Share Posted June 24 41 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Are you trying to tell me Scotland lost the match yesterday because they tried so hard to win and were countered? Scotland had their first chance in the second half in a must win match, mind. If anything they'd played even less adventurous if they'd won the match against Switzerland. Can you not see that? If they had won vs Switzerland (the better outcome) you know fully well they wouldn't need to commit so many bodies so late on vs Hungary and having to scramble for the win. If they're on 3 points, and going into stoppage time last night at 0-0, you know exactly that they don't need to 'try so hard to win'. They can settle for the 0-0, right? End up on 4 points and pretty much be guaranteed to go through to the knockouts. But I think you're being deliberately obtuse about it all. If you don't think they'd have been in a better position with 3 points going into yesterday's game than 1 points then there's no points discussing it any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rucksackfranzose Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Stan said: Can you not see that? If they had won vs Switzerland (the better outcome) you know fully well they wouldn't need to commit so many bodies so late on vs Hungary and having to scramble for the win. If they're on 3 points, and going into stoppage time last night at 0-0, you know exactly that they don't need to 'try so hard to win'. They can settle for the 0-0, right? End up on 4 points and pretty much be guaranteed to go through to the knockouts. But I think you're being deliberately obtuse about it all. If you don't think they'd have been in a better position with 3 points going into yesterday's game than 1 points then there's no points discussing it any further. They had also more points if they hadn't lost against Germany, so why is the draw with Switzerland not being a win more important than the loss against Germany not being a win? Genuine question? Edited June 24 by Rucksackfranzose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted June 24 Author Administrator Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, Rucksackfranzose said: They had also more points if they hadn't lost against Germany, so why is the draw with Switzerland not being a win more important than the loss against Germany not being a win? Genuine question? Because I'm talking about going into the third game following the 2nd game. It's pretty damn obvious winning any game puts you in a better position for the next one. There's also obviously more chance they get a result against Switzerland than against a Germany side. But you're doing what Michael did yesterday - missing my point about the context of going into the 3rd game and just focusing on the quality of the opposition. Not saying that's totally irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is that had they gained 3 points vs Switzerland, they wouldn't have had to go all out to win vs Hungary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rucksackfranzose Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Stan said: Because I'm talking about going into the third game following the 2nd game. It's pretty damn obvious winning any game puts you in a better position for the next one. There's also obviously more chance they get a result against Switzerland than against a Germany side. But you're doing what Michael did yesterday - missing my point about the context of going into the 3rd game and just focusing on the quality of the opposition. Not saying that's totally irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is that had they gained 3 points vs Switzerland, they wouldn't have had to go all out to win vs Hungary. And that's the point where the two of us indeed disagree whilst you're saying they lost because they went all out to win it, my point of view is they either went out because they didn't or they are that utterly abysmal they've lost to Hungary regardless of any other result. If the going all out to win is resulting in the first shot on goal (not on target) happens in the second half than you're rife for a loss. In this case your opponent is that superior they'll win anyway no matter how you approach the respective match, to be completely honest. Edited June 24 by Rucksackfranzose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Just now, Stan said: Because I'm talking about going into the third game following the 2nd game. It's pretty damn obvious winning any game puts you in a better position for the next one. There's also obviously more chance they get a result against Switzerland than against a Germany side. But you're doing what Michael did yesterday - missing my point about the context of going into the 3rd game and just focusing on the quality of the opposition. Not saying that's totally irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is that had they gained 3 points vs Switzerland, they wouldn't have had to go all out to win vs Hungary. I didn't miss your point, I made the same point as Rucksackfranzos. Don't you see that you are stating the obvious. Winning against any team in a group at these Euros eases the pressure in the next match. But it's easier said than done. You should say the same about all Scotland's matches then. Yeah, sure it can be argued that Germany are stronger than Switzerland, but there isn't a huge difference in class. The fact of the matter is, as I already said, getting a result in any of these games is a positive result for Scotland, given their strength. This all started when I wrote after Scotland's draw with Switzerland, that it was a positive(something like this, can't remember exact term I used) result for Scotland. Then you said "is it"? My point is that yes, it was a positive result given the stronger opposition and it is a result that Scotland would have probably grabbed before the tournament kicked off. Anyway, I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted June 24 Author Administrator Share Posted June 24 19 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said: And that's the point where the two of us indeed disagree whilst you're saying they lost because they went all out to win it, my point of view is they either went out because they didn't or they are that utterly abysmal they've lost to Hungary regardless of any other result. If the going all out to win is resulting in the first shot on goal (not on target) happens in the second half than you're rife for a loss. In this case your opponent is that superior they'll win anyway no matter how you approach the respective match, to be completely honest. Yes, they were abysmal this tournament and I agree with this point about lack of shots on target. And that's not just for this game, but the previous two. I'm saying they lost because they had to go all out to win because a) they were shit enough to let it get to that stage and b) they missed their opportunity in those final moments and had to throw so many bodies forward. As for the final point, no win is ever guaranteed for a superior opponent. We saw that with Slovakia vs Belgium... 16 minutes ago, Michael said: I didn't miss your point, I made the same point as Rucksackfranzos. Don't you see that you are stating the obvious. Winning against any team in a group at these Euros eases the pressure in the next match. But it's easier said than done. You should say the same about all Scotland's matches then. Yeah, sure it can be argued that Germany are stronger than Switzerland, but there isn't a huge difference in class. The fact of the matter is, as I already said, getting a result in any of these games is a positive result for Scotland, given their strength. Yes there bloody well is . Germany are far superior. 16 minutes ago, Michael said: This all started when I wrote after Scotland's draw with Switzerland, that it was a positive(something like this, can't remember exact term I used) result for Scotland. Then you said "is it"? My point is that yes, it was a positive result given the stronger opposition and it is a result that Scotland would have probably grabbed before the tournament kicked off. Anyway, I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this. You said it was a 'great result'. I argued it wasn't. Precisely because of this exact scenario. And now we're going round in circles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Stan said: Yes there bloody well is . Germany are far superior. Number 1, you don't know if they would have lost anyway against Hungary, even if they had beaten Switzerland, so that's a very bold assumption to make. As for Germany being far superior, yeah, sure they were, they drew 1-1 with Switzerland in their match on home soil in Germany. Yeah, they are arguably better, but to say they are far superior is hyperbole. What I am saying is that Scotland's result against the Swiss was a positive one, because of the strength of the Swiss and that Clarke would have probably targeted a draw as a positive result against the Swiss prior to the tournament. Belgium and Slovakia are much better sides than Scotland and the gulf in class between Belgium and Slovakia isn't a huge difference, just like Germany and Switzerland. If you want to talk about context, the result of Scotland drawing against Switzerland was also very positive at the time, given that Scotland were coming off of a 5-1 thrashing by Germany. Edited June 24 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted June 24 Author Administrator Share Posted June 24 I give up. I can't be arsed any more 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 2 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Even if they'd won against Switzerland that loss had seen them efinish their group on 4th spot. However you look at it the loss against Hungary was the decessive match. And no Scotland wouldn't have become a better side by some weird magic if the'd won against Switzerland. Why are you being so snappy for me having an opinion. If you'd got a result against Switzerland you'd not have needed a win last night and you would have approached the game in a different way. Instead you chased the result and got caught at the end. I take it you are Scottish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, Devil said: Why are you being so snappy for me having an opinion. If you'd got a result against Switzerland you'd not have needed a win last night and you would have approached the game in a different way. Instead you chased the result and got caught at the end. I take it you are Scottish? Haven't you been on this site long enough to know where he is from? He is German. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Just now, Michael said: Haven't you been on this site long enough to know where he is from? He is German. I've got to be honest I've not spoken to everyone or read everyone's posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Just now, Devil said: I've got to be honest I've not spoken to everyone or read everyone's posts. Fair enough mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 The point stands, they would have expected to lose to Germany. So based on that it was huge to win against Switzerland. I felt they ended up lumping too much pressure for themselves by running with the attitude a point was good because it meant they were still in it. Personally I feel the worst thing for Scotland is how the fixtures were drawn. I don't believe playing the strongest side first is a good thing, you need to build confidence and losing straight away heaps pressure on that second game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 (edited) It's also worth noting, that Hungary also had to go all out to win against Scotland in this match. So there was no advantage for any side in this game. Scotland had more points than Hungary going into this game, so if anything, there was more pressure on Hungary than there was for Scotland. In the end, Hungary deservedly got the win they needed. Edited June 25 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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