Generation 'Snowflake'

[Marc]

Oh dear, Cicero having a mare here

[Cicero]

7 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Your whole stance seems to be "I agree with him kneeling but I want to be represented as well as it's not about race and I'm going against him because I'm not represented and the whole thing is invalid. It's definitely not about blacks or whites but here are some statistics about the differences between blacks and whites".

As for the Daniel Shaver shooting, maybe you should search online. There was a big deal made out of it and most of the people and media outraged about blacks regularly being killed by police were the ones mainly outraged by this shooting as well. And even if you don't think they were outraged, you'd have to be crazy to think that they thought it was justified. There were fewer people trying to justify it overall though which is interesting. I guess some people need to racially identify with victims to realise something's wrong...

And your stance seems to be, "If you do not believe this is a race issue, even though there is no evidence to suggest that it is, you are a racist". 

Was race a factor for Daniel Shaver's death? Or the 50% of whites killed this past year as a result of police shootings? Or does that only apply if they are black? 

[SirBalon]

To me it's as it always is... A class issue!  Unfortunately due to history, many black people are fitted into a particular class and from there the black issue.  In America it's you have to add demographics and geographical positions into th equation too. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

To me it's as it always is... A class issue!  Unfortunately due to history, many black people are fitted into a particular class and from there the black issue.  In America it's you have to add demographics and geographical positions into th equation too. 

I had a debate with someone racist the other day. Social poverty generally makes people more likely to commit crime. That's not making excuses it mearly pointing out that of you have 1000 people from a say working class background and 1000 people from  a underprivileged background the crime rates for the underprivileged will probably be higher. More black people live in poverty. It's nothing to do with them being black. Another thing is despite it being illegal to discriminate you normally can't prove it. So it is harder for a black person to get a job. Ironically a lot of the time it is racist attitudes that create a lot of the problems

[6666]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

And your stance seems to be, "If you do not believe this is a race issue, even though there is no evidence to suggest that it is, you are a racist". 

Was race a factor for Daniel Shaver's death? Or the 50% of whites killed this past year as a result of police shootings? Or does that only apply if they are black? 

You have an issue with Kaepernick taking a stance against blacks being killed by police and nothing being done about it. There are plenty of high profile examples of black men that are assumed to be guilty being killed by police or black men in minor offences that get killed by police. Suggesting that there isn't a pattern is wilful ignorance. Even if you want to suggest it's coincidence or not intentional in anyway, it's still happening to black people with more obvious examples then against whites and the right wing in America always try to justify it.

And I thought we've covered this Daniel Shaver incident already... No one's saying that whites don't get unjustly killed as well. And no one on the left tried to justify that murder either or cover it up. All I remember is the same people on the left being outraged by it and the same people on the right going "one of ours died, told you racism doesn't exist".

And you should probably do a better job of writing out stats wherever you got them from. "The 50% of whites killed this past year as a result of police shootings" probably isn't what you wanted to say... Half of white people weren't wiped out.

Saying white people get unjustly killed by the police as well is fair. No one's denying that. Minorities or those with less power (to be more specific) that are affected more by issues and are seen to have less of a voice in society are the group that are allowed to have the biggest voice when it comes to activism. Sexual assault happens to both genders but women lead the charge against it but that doesn't mean men aren't allowed to be victims. Being angered by that is a bit insecure in my opinion.

[Cicero]

56 minutes ago, 6666 said:

You have an issue with Kaepernick taking a stance against blacks being killed by police and nothing being done about it. There are plenty of high profile examples of black men that are assumed to be guilty being killed by police or black men in minor offences that get killed by police. Suggesting that there isn't a pattern is wilful ignorance. Even if you want to suggest it's coincidence or not intentional in any way, it's still happening and the right wing in America always try to justify it.

And I thought we've covered this Daniel Shaver incident already... No one's saying that whites don't get unjustly killed as well. And no one on the left tried to justify that murder either or cover it up. All I remember is the same people on the left being outraged by it and the same people on the right going "one of ours died, told you racism doesn't exist".

And you should probably do a better job of writing out stats wherever you got them from. "The 50% of whites killed this past year as a result of police shootings" probably isn't what you wanted to say... Half of white people weren't wiped out.

Or you can show some level of advisability and see in my previous post towards Gonzo where that stat came from, but you're too busy nitpicking and, quite literally, putting words in my argument.  https://talkfootball365.com/topic/2820-generation-snowflake/?do=findComment&comment=208646

Everyone has a right to protest whether you look like an idiot doing so or not. Kaepernick is an idiot because he believes in something that evidence suggests doesn't exist. 

If that were the case with Daniel Shaver then why is there such animosity towards people who don't agree with what Kaepernick is doing? They are racist because they believe this epidemic is of police incompetence vs racial hatred? It is such simplistic thinking to state that blacks get wrongfully shot because they were black. It couldn't have had anything to do with the police being sloppy or impulsive. Of all police fatality shootings, rightfully or wrongly this last year, 50% were whites and 26% were black. The far left interprets this statistic and sees 26% of police fatality shootings were because of race. 

Whether it be Trayvon Martin or Daniel Shaver, there is an issue of poor training of police. Only the left makes this issue about race.  Dividing the country even further. 

[6666]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Or you can show some level of advisability and see in my previous post towards Gonzo where that stat came from, but you're too busy nitpicking and, quite literally, putting words in my argument.  https://talkfootball365.com/topic/2820-generation-snowflake/?do=findComment&comment=208646

Everyone has a right to protest whether you look like an idiot doing so or not. Kaepernick is an idiot because he believes in something that evidence suggests doesn't exist. 

If that were the case with Daniel Shaver than why is there such animosity towards people who don't agree with what Kaepernick is doing? They are racist because they believe this epidemic is one of police incompetence vs racial hatred? It is such simplistic thinking to state that blacks get wrongfully shot because they were black. It couldn't have had anything to do with the police being sloppy or impulsive. Of all police fatality shootings, rightfully or wrongly this last year, 50% were whites and 26% were black. The far left sees this statistic and sees 26% of police fatality shootings was because of race. 

Whether it be Trayvon Martin or Daniel Shaver, there is an issue of poor training of police officers. Only the left makes this issue about race. 

Once again, the way you use your stat doesn't really help you. Saying "rightfully or wrongly" and then putting out a stat when it comes to people being killed kind of defeats the purpose of specifically discussing wrongful killings. And seeing as there are more examples of blacks being unjustly killed, that's what creates the sense that it's a race issue. You may think that's wrong and it's just an issue of incompetent police and that argument can be had but that's not the argument being had by people angered by those taking a knee as they're not really looking to tackle the issue of why the police are poorly trained, they're simply angered and offended by the talk of race. That's why they very much come across as racist. Or as I said before, these idiots think this is about their military being disrespected (which it probably should be but that's a different story).

If Kaepernick decided to say that it's now about police unjustly killing people without consequence and it's not specifically about race then are you all for it? That's your only issue right?

[SirBalon]

29 minutes ago, Cicero said:

50% were whites and 26% were black

What's the stats on the US demographics on race?  In other words what's the percentage of black people in the USA?

There are things that you are saying that are also true though and have to be taken into account.  I don't believe every single shooting of a black person was racially motivated by a long way.

[Cicero]

26 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Once again, the way you use your stat doesn't really help you. Saying "rightfully or wrongly" and then putting out a stat when it comes to people being killed kind of defeats the purpose of specifically discussing wrongful killings. And seeing as there are more examples of blacks being unjustly killed, that's what creates the sense that it's a race issue. You may think that's wrong and it's just an issue of incompetent police and that argument can be had but that's not the argument being had by people angered by those taking a knee as they're not really looking to tackle the issue of why the police are poorly trained, they're simply angered and offended by the talk of race. That's why they very much come across as racist. Or as I said before, these idiots think this is about their military being disrespected (which it probably should be but that's a different story).

If Kaepernick decided to say that it's now about police unjustly killing people without consequence and it's not specifically about race then are you all for it? That's your only issue right?

There is a thin line between unjustly killed vs being killed due to resisting arrest or other hidden context that the far left media love to hide from the public. Hence the increasing racial tensions. I have never seen a case similar to Daniel Shaver happen to a black man, and if it did, we would of most definitely heard of it.

Even if Kaepernick was kneeling for the right reasons, there is a time and place to do so. I don't think doing it at his job, one that is viewed by millions, was the right way to go about it.  I mentioned this in the City Academy coach thread that you are ignorant or naive to believe your actions won't be perceived differently by others. The NFL and Nike are now at risk of plummeting financially, and Kaepernick looks like a hypocrite partnering with Nike. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

What's the stats on the US demographics on race?  In other words what's the percentage of black people in the USA?

There are things that you are saying that are also true though and have to be taken into account.  I don't believe every single shooting of a black person was racially motivated by a long way.

72% white, 13% black - as of the last census. As I said earlier in the thread, the stats actually indicate you're much more likely to be shot by police in America if you're taking the demographic stats into account.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

72% white, 13% black - as of the last census. As I said earlier in the thread, the stats actually indicate you're much more likely to be shot by police in America if you're taking the demographic stats into account.

That information is extremely important to ascertain how many black people are falling victim to these occurrences and why I asked.  When stats on occurrences are issued, then we need the stats on demographics also.

[Dr. Gonzo]

13 minutes ago, Cicero said:

There is a thin line between unjustly killed vs being killed due to resisting arrest or other hidden context that the far left media love to hide from the public. Hence the increasing racial tensions. I have never seen a case similar to Daniel Shaver happen to a black man, and if it did, we would of most definitely heard of it.

Even if Kaepernick was kneeling for the right reasons, there is a time and place to do so. I don't think doing it at his job, one that is viewed by millions, was the right way to go about it.  I mentioned this in the City Academy coach thread that you are ignorant or naive to believe your actions won't be perceived differently by others. The NFL and Nike are now at risk of plummeting financially, and Kaepernick looks like a hypocrite partnering with Nike. 

Have you seen the video of Eric Garner? He was selling individual cigarettes which is illegal, sure, but he was then put in a chokehold & said he couldn't breathe and was then shot on the ground. There have been numerous incidents where black people have phones, medicine containers, etc... "mistaken for weapons" - that might be sloppy cops. Or it might be because of this https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

[Cicero]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Have you seen the video of Eric Garner. He was selling individual cigarettes which is illegal, sure, but he was then put in a chokehold & said he couldn't breathe and was then shot on the ground. There have been numerous incidents where black people have phones, medicine containers, etc... "mistaken for weapons" - that might be sloppy cops. Or it might be because of this https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

Still nothing to suggest it was racially motivated. Yet this doesn't stop some members of black lives matter attacking  innocent white bystanders on the streets. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Still nothing to suggest it was racially motivated. Yet this doesn't stop some members of black lives matter attacking  innocent white bystanders on the streets. 

You probably wouldn't get a bunch of pissed off idiots thinking all white people are bad if US society didn't try to brush all of these unjustified killings by police under the rug. 

[Cicero]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You probably wouldn't get a bunch of pissed off idiots thinking all white people are bad if US society didn't try to brush all of these unjustified killings by police under the rug. 

The common denominator, whether it be black or white, is poor police training. Instead of dividing the country, US society needs to come together and tackle this issue. More educated and trained police officers to handle a wide spectrum of situations. 

What Kaepernick did, isn't going to bind the country together. Naive of him to think otherwise and partnering with Nike just shows how hypocritical he is. 

[6666]

58 minutes ago, Cicero said:

There is a thin line between unjustly killed vs being killed due to resisting arrest or other hidden context that the far left media love to hide from the public. Hence the increasing racial tensions. I have never seen a case similar to Daniel Shaver happen to a black man, and if it did, we would of most definitely heard of it.

Even if Kaepernick was kneeling for the right reasons, there is a time and place to do so. I don't think doing it at his job, one that is viewed by millions, was the right way to go about it.  I mentioned this in the City Academy coach thread that you are ignorant or naive to believe your actions won't be perceived differently by others. The NFL and Nike are now at risk of plummeting financially, and Kaepernick looks like a hypocrite partnering with Nike. 

Using your platform to bring notice to injustice isn't abnormal and makes sense (regardless of if you don't think there's an injustice taking place).

And Nike really isn't going to plummet. Idiots burning their own shit won't have much of a lasting effect. Even if it's an issue in America, they'll still be fine.

[Dr. Gonzo]

27 minutes ago, Cicero said:

The common denominator, whether it be black or white, is poor police training. Instead of dividing the country, US society needs to come together and tackle this issue. More educated and trained police officers to handle a wide spectrum of situations. 

What Kaepernick did, isn't going to bind the country together. Naive of him to think otherwise and partnering with Nike just shows how hypocritical he is. 

I still think race plays a role, but you're not wrong. The vast majority of police, like the general public, have no business having firearms, you'd get a big reduction in unjustifiable police murders if they didn't have guns (and if they didn't assume everyone was carrying a gun). And they'd still have plenty of tools to incapacitate dangerous criminals (like stun guns). But getting America to have some common sense regarding guns is an even bigger ask.

And why should Kaepernick be held to this standard of being a grand unifier of American society? That's a role for American leaders, who are failing miserably at unifying anybody, not athletes. People using their profile and celebrity status for bringing certain issues to the public eye is nothing new.

[Guest]

@Dr. Gonzo @6666 is there evidence to suggest that there is a inperportionet amount of black people killed by police officers in America? I'm  not taking about enough to prove it just enough to justify a serious investigation?

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Using your platform to bring notice to injustice isn't abnormal and makes sense (regardless of if you don't think there's an injustice taking place).



And Nike really isn't going to plummet. Idiots burning their own shit won't have much of a lasting effect. Even if it's an issue in America, they'll still be fine.

The Nike boycott will probably go the way of the right's Keurig boycott 

[SirBalon]

17 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo @6666 is there evidence to suggest that there is a inperportionet amount of black people killed by police officers in America? I'm  not taking about enough to prove it just enough to justify a serious investigation?

You have the stats Cicero offered on the amount of black people to white people and then the stats Dr. Gonzo offered with the percentage of white people compared to black people that live in the US.  With those two stats you have your answer... There's a hell of a lot more black people being killed by the police compared to white people... A massive difference!

But again I want to reiterate on something that Cicero is putting forward that is more moderate in the sense that I don't believe for one second that every black person murdered by a police officer is racially motivated.  You'll have the times when shooting was required due to combatting an issue where firearms were used by the offenders, there'll be the errors by the police and then you have any case that regards racially motivated injustice. Those are the stats you don't get from either party because they both have their agendas.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo @6666 is there evidence to suggest that there is a inperportionet amount of black people killed by police officers in America? I'm  not taking about enough to prove it just enough to justify a serious investigation?

The evidence is in the statistical chances.

If you're an American, there's a 62% (roughly, there are conflicting sources - the latest census report says 72% also) chance that you're white & a 13% chance of being black. Using 2017 statistics on police killings in the US, 23% of people killed by police were black - nearly (but not quite) double their general population in the country. There's different data and ways it was calculated, but data suggests if you're black you're 1.7-2.8 times more likely to be shot by coppers.

The most unjustified police killings in the US are those where the victim is unarmed. As of June of this year we had:

• 11 out of 102 black people killed by cops while unarmed - roughly 11%
• 15 of 211 white people killed by cops while unarmed - roughly 7%
• 2 of 68 Hispanic  people killed by cops while unarmed - roughly 3%

The others are victims where there's a different race or where race/ethnicity isn't on the police report. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The evidence is in the statistical chances.

If you're an American, there's a 62% (roughly, there are conflicting sources - the latest census report says 72% also) chance that you're white & a 13% chance of being black. Using 2017 statistics on police killings in the US, 23% of people killed by police were black - nearly (but not quite) double their general population in the country. There's different data and ways it was calculated, but data suggests if you're black you're 1.7-2.8 times more likely to be shot by coppers.

The most unjustified police killings in the US are those where the victim is unarmed. As of June of this year we had:

• 11 out of 102 black people killed by cops while unarmed - roughly 11%
• 15 of 211 white people killed by cops while unarmed - roughly 7%
• 2 of 68 Hispanic  people killed by cops while unarmed - roughly 3%

The others are victims where there's a different race or where race/ethnicity isn't on the police report. 

For me that would be enough evidence to launch a nationwide investigation to see how big (if any) the racism problem in the police is. Personally I would imagine it is quite bad. The problem is the left and the right don't seem to listen to each other. Maybe if they did more would get done.

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

For me that would be enough evidence to launch a nationwide investigation to see how big (if any) the racism problem in the police is. Personally I would imagine it is quite bad. The problem is the left and the right don't seem to listen to each other. Maybe if they did more would get done.

The FBI once released a report suggesting white supremacist groups were actively getting their members to join police departments across the nation. But more recently this happened... https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/346552-trump-cut-funds-to-fight-anti-right-wing-violence - I'm not optimistic American leadership will do anything meaningful to address the problem.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The FBI once released a report suggesting white supremacist groups were actively getting their members to join police departments across the nation. But more recently this happened... https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/346552-trump-cut-funds-to-fight-anti-right-wing-violence - I'm not optimistic American leadership will do anything meaningful to address the problem.

Out of interest what is your ethnicity?

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Gunnersauraus said:

Out of interest what is your ethnicity?

Half English, half Persian.