The Gay Man vs Bakery Court Case

[Cicero]

A cake shop has won its appeal over being fined because it would not put in icing the slogan " Support Gay Marriage "

Where do you guys stand on this matter? I'f i'm not mistaken there have been several incidents like this one. 

[nudge]

Where did it happen? 

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, nudge said:

Where did it happen? 

Belfast 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/world/europe/northern-ireland-cake-gay.html

9 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

The gentleman is asking for the services of a cake shop, that shop can determine what it does and doesn't want to create.

The gentleman has no right to demand that his slogan is created by the shop and it's common sense that any fine has been retracted. 

Great news

There is a thin line.

Refusing to serve them on the basis they are gay, is discrimination. However, if they are demanding him to customise the cake with something that goes against his religious and moral principals, it is his right to refuse to do so. 

[Bluewolf]

 

Interesting.. Do you have a link to the article @Cicero?? 

It's a bit vague.. was it icing on a cake for example or something else?? 

 

[Cicero]

Just now, Bluewolf said:

 

Interesting.. Do you have a link to the article @Cicero?? 

It's a bit vague.. was it icing on a cake for example or something else?? 

 

I posted the link. 

The icing on the cake stated  " We support Gay Marriage" or something along those lines. 

[nudge]

Cheers, I was just trying to figure out if it's a good or bad business decision... Given that same-sex marriage is not legal in Northern Ireland, it's probably good for business haha.

After reading the article, it looks like the objection was to the message on the cake, not the customer; and they had served him in the past but refused it this time due to the message being inconsistent with their religious beliefs. 

[Bluewolf]

Ok.. 

Not the first time something like this has happened.... 

Obviously they don't follow 'the customer is always right rule' then.. 

It's a hard one, On one hand if that Bakery offered that service regardless of their personal beliefs I don't see why they could not have fulfilled it, On the other hand I also don't believe that because the shop declined to do it based on their beliefs that they should be punished either.. It's all about one belief trying to impose itself upon another and you really won't get a satisfactory result from it either way you go about it.. 

You would probably have to side with the shop taking everything else into consideration.. Such are the times that having been turned down that he felt the best course of action was to drag the whole thing through the courts... should have just gone to another cake shop the daft sod..  

 

 

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, Cannabis said:

It was the latter.

Right, in which I 100% agree with the Baker and the Court's ruling 

He's not refusing them service because they are gay. He's refusing to make a gay cake. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I side with the baker here (and not just because I used to work in a bakery and my dad's a baker and his dad was a baker and his dad was a baker, etc...).

Remove the gayness from the equation here and instead make this the situation. A Nazi comes into a bakery and asks for a cake to be made that says "Support the Nazi Party" and it's surrounded by swastikas. Should the baker have the right to refuse making that cake?

Yes. He should have the right to refuse that cake. Just like printing companies shouldn't be compelled to make giant billboards with child porn on them if a kiddy fiddler comes in.

And I don't mean to compare gay people with scum like Nazis and child molesters to say they're all equal morally. But taking things that are universally easy to condemn and applying them to the situation makes it clear that you can't just compel someone to perform services for you just because you want to.

[Cicero]

One of our fundamental rights is to have our religious and philosophical objections protected. Business law however prevents any sort of discrimination. 

He isn't downright refusing to serve the gay couple. He just doesn't want to make that kind of cake they requested. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Cannabis said:

I'd go as far as to say that the baker has the right to produce what he wants. It would be incredibly petty and ridiculous but if an Evertonian supporting baker refused to make a YNWA cake then he has the right to do so. 

As I say incredibly petty, but each individual should have the right to refuse or accept for me.

I mean if someone came into my dad's bakery and was like "I want an Everton cake" and my dad said "alright" then made a big fuck off LFC themed cake to sell to the blueshite customer... I think my dad would be well in the wrong. I don't think it's an absolute right to produce what the baker wants - if he agrees to make something, that's what he should make. But I think he's got the right to refuse service if he doesn't want to make something in most, if not all, cases.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Cicero said:

One of our fundamental rights is to have our religious and philosophical objections protected. Business law however prevents any sort of discrimination. 

He isn't downright refusing to serve the gay couple. He just doesn't want to make that kind of cake they requested. 

Now this I'm not sure I agree with. I think everyone should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want, if they're so inclined (although I'd prefer that they didn't, because religion is cancer). But I'm not so sure religious objections need to be protected - certain religions are opposed to certain things for no good fucking reason. If I ran a restaurant, am I to pull pork products because Jews and Muslims object to pork? Fuck that.

I agree with your last sentence though. This isn't discrimination if the gay couple can order a cake from him, he's simply refusing to perform the service they requested and imo he's free to do so. And the couple is free to take their business elsewhere to a baker that will make them the cake they want. They aren't compelled to buy a cake from this baker, just as he's not compelled to make them a cake he doesn't want to make.

[Cicero]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Now this I'm not sure I agree with. I think everyone should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want, if they're so inclined (although I'd prefer that they didn't, because religion is cancer). But I'm not so sure religious objections need to be protected - certain religions are opposed to certain things for no good fucking reason. If I ran a restaurant, am I to pull pork products because Jews and Muslims object to pork? Fuck that.

I agree with your last sentence though. This isn't discrimination if the gay couple can order a cake from him, he's simply refusing to perform the service they requested and imo he's free to do so. And the couple is free to take their business elsewhere to a baker that will make them the cake they want. They aren't compelled to buy a cake from this baker, just as he's not compelled to make them a cake he doesn't want to make.

You're looking at it the wrong way.  This right is on the basis of someone forcing something upon you that contradicts your religious/philosophical beliefs.

Like  If someone was to force a Muslim to serve them alcohol/pork. That is a violation of the Muslim's religious right. Their negative right. If you ran a restaurant, you have full authority to conduct business as you see fit so long it regulates under business law.  If a Muslim demands you to not serve pork/alcohol, you can tell them to fuck off. 

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

You're looking at it the wrong way.  This right is on the basis of someone forcing something upon you that contradicts your religious/philosophical beliefs.

Like  If someone was to force a Muslim to serve them alcohol/pork. That is a violation of the Muslim's religious right. Their negative right. If you ran a restaurant, you have full authority to conduct business as you see fit so long it regulates under business law.  

 

 

Yeah, wording it that way makes a lot more sense and I agree with you there.

I think that whole phrase about fundamental rights to be protected from religious objections just threw my mind to that typical Y'all Qaeda American rallying cry of "but muh religious freedom!!" which always makes me roll my eyes. That remnant of America being founded by our religious extremists and being so prominent in American politics still is something that just rubs me the wrong way lol.

My mistake though - I actually agree with your whole post 

[Danny]

It's discrimination, unless they have a policy of not writing anything on cakes with icing which would be bizarre for a cake shop to do, it's discrimination.

[Danny]

Shock the bigot disagrees with me.

[nudge]

It would be discrimination if they refused him service just because he's gay. Not exactly the same as refusing to put a political message that's against their beliefs on their product and use it to promote something they're opposed to. What if someone else went to a gay baker and asked for a cake with anti-gay marriage message and he refused? Would it be discrimination as well?

 

[Danny]

4 minutes ago, nudge said:

It would be discrimination if they refused him service just because he's gay. Not exactly the same as refusing to put a political message that's against their beliefs on their product and use it to promote something they're opposed to. What if someone else went to a gay baker and asked for a cake with anti-gay marriage message and he refused? Would it be discrimination as well?

 

No because equality is a human right....not a political stance. It would be the same as refusing to serve someone wanting something racist on their cake

[Cicero]

32 minutes ago, Danny said:

It's discrimination, unless they have a policy of not writing anything on cakes with icing which would be bizarre for a cake shop to do, it's discrimination.

Business Law disagrees 

[Danny]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Business Law disagrees 

Yeah because the law has never enforced acts of discrimination before.

[nudge]

Just now, Danny said:

No because equality is a human right....not a political stance. It would be the same as refusing to serve someone wanting something racist on their cake

Marriage is a civil institution, not a human right though. Currently, same-sex marriages aren't legal in NI. Rallying for or against it in order to change the existing law is absolutely a political stance. 

[Danny]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

Marriage is a civil institution, not a human right though. Currently, same-sex marriages aren't legal in NI. Rallying for or against it in order to change the existing law is absolutely a political stance. 

Maybe, and maybe whoever is over seeing this sees it in that way hence the fine being taken. But it's still discrimination and will be identified as such one day in the future when that level of bigotry stops holding NI back.

[Danny]

2 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

And the supreme court you gimp.

Again, the law has never protected and supported acts of discrimination before has it?

[Cicero]

13 minutes ago, Danny said:

Yeah because the law has never enforced acts of discrimination before.

Except there is no discrimination at play. 

It's his business, and he is allowed to sell and make what ever he wants should it fall under the regulations of business law.  

Business law also states that you cannot refuse service on the basis of race, orientation, or color.  The baker didn't do that as he had clearly served this couple in the past and even offered to make a different cake. He just didn't want to make this kind of cake. 

It is the baker's negative and fundamental right, to have their religious and philosophical objections protected. No one can come in and force him to create a cake that he doesn't feel comfortable making let alone a cake that goes against his religious views. It's his business and he can conduct his business how he sees fit. 

 

 

[Danny]

Just now, Cicero said:

Except there is no discrimination at play. 

It's his business, and he is allowed to sell and make what ever he wants should it fall under the regulations of business law.  

Business law also states that you cannot refuse service on the basis of race, orientation, or color.  The baker didn't do that as he had clearly served this couple in the past and even offered to make a different cake. He just didn't want to make this kind of cake. 

It is the baker's negative and fundamental right, to have their religious and philosophical objections protected. No one can come in and force him to create a cake that he doesn't feel comfortable making let alone a cake that goes against his religious views. It's his business and he can conduct his business how he sees fit. 

 

 

He refused to ice the cake, that is a service his company provides. He refused to do it because he doesn't agree with gay marriage, that is bigotry. The failure to provide a service because of his bigotry is discrimination.

The law is hiding behind religious views to allow discrimination, it's not the first time it's happened and won't be the last. Marriage is not a religious ceremony, it is a legal ceremony, and the law currently discriminates against homosexuals in Northern Ireland.