Dr. Gonzo Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 I think it’s bollocks if you chat a lot of shite before a match and then go into fucking hiding after. That should be against the rules. Where are you @José?
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Yeah but the league is the one we want the most. I get that, but to justify 'missing out' or blaming your short comings on City being so dominate, is a poor excuse when there are two domestic trophies up for grabs. One of which is the greatest domestic trophy on the planet.
Dr. Gonzo Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 Just now, Cicero said: I get that, but to justify 'missing out' or short comings on City being so dominate, is a poor excuse when there are two domestic trophies up for grabs. One of which is the greatest domestic trophy on the planet. Obviously any trophy is great, but let’s say we finish in second by a point but win the FA Cup... I’d be gutted tbh. The CL wouldn’t be as gutting. But beggars can’t be choosers I’d take any silverware. I just have priorities.
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Stan said: Gotta agree with this. Even more so considering Liverpool have gone so long without a title whereas Man Utd capitalised on their dominance in the 90s by adding many trophies. It is one (good) thing being better than rivals. It's another (better thing) going a bit further and having some silverware to show for it. Manchester United never had what this Manchester City are to compete against. Arsenal or whatever subsequently turned up during Ferguson's domestic era were nothing compared to what this City are within this league. That fact is a very important one! 10 minutes ago, Cicero said: There are other trophies than just the league. There is only one other trophy (other than the league title) that could satisfy any possible criticism or analysis thrown in judgment at what Klopp is creating here. We can forget the League Cup because if that were to be the trophy won it would be nonsense. The FA CUP is absolutely nothing on what this Liverpool should be able to compete for and that only leaves the two aforementioned competitions. What Klopp is creating should be built for the two main trophies where the best sides are measured against which are the English championship and the European one.
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Obviously any trophy is great, but let’s say we finish in second by a point but win the FA Cup... I’d be gutted tbh. That would be a terrific season though. 2 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Manchester United never had what this Manchester City are to compete against. Arsenal or whatever subsequently turned up during Ferguson's domestic era were nothing compared to what this City are within this league. That fact is a very important one! There is only one other trophy (other than the league title) that could satisfy any possible criticism or analysis thrown in judgment at what Klopp is crating here. We can forget the League Cup because if that were to be the trophy won it would be nonsense. The FA CUP is absolutely nothing on what this Liverpool should be able to compete for and that only leaves the two aforementioned competitions. What Klopp is creating should be built for the two main trophies where the best sides are measured against which are the English championship and the European one. Well, obviously the double is the best thing going bar the treble. However, with the investment Liverpool have injected, to win literally nothing for the third straight year under Klopp should be concerning. Even the league cup would show sign of progress. Give the players a taste of silverware moving forward. And The FA Cup should always be seen as one of the priorities.
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Cicero said: That would be a terrific season though. Well, obviously the double is the best thing going bar the treble. However, with the investment Liverpool have injected, to win literally nothing for the third straight year under Klopp should be concerning. Even the league cup would show sign of progress. Give the players a taste of silverware moving forward. And The FA Cup should always be seen as one of the priorities. The problem with the League Cup is an obvious one... The biggest sides don't take it seriously until they're in the semi-final and even then that semi-final encounter would be almost negligent where player selection is concerned if the calendar in and around that date were to have serious games to be played. Honestly... That competition is absolutely nothing! I probably wouldn't even watch it if Arsenal were to make the final. (I'm being honest there as there are more important things like cleaning out all the old paperwork from work inside my car that I keep on putting off. Winning the League Cup isn't a sign of progress... It's a sign of winning that competition and moving on from that the next day. Just like winning the Charity Shield at the start of the season. The FA CUP has very unfortunately lost its prestige although I will say that if Liverpool were to win that I wouldn't argue although this Liverpool team are worth much much more than the FA CUP. Everyone can see that what Klopp has built and continues to improve is a team made to compete against the best. But this has come during a period where this Manchester a City are literally on their own up there. It doesn't mean they (City) can't be beat though... But doing it merits something massive if it were to occur!
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 1 minute ago, SirBalon said: The problem with the League Cup is an obvious one... The biggest sides don't take it seriously until they're in the semi-final and even then that semi-final encounter would be almost negligent where player selection is concerned if the calendar in and around that date were to have serious games to be played. Honestly... That competition is absolutely nothing! I probably wouldn't even watch it if Arsenal were to make the final. (I'm being honest there as there are more important things like cleaning out all the old paperwork from work inside my car that I keep on putting off. Winning the League Cup isn't a sign of progress... It's a sign of winning that competition and moving on from that the next day. Just like winning the Charity Shield at the start of the season. The FA CUP has very unfortunately lost its prestige although I will say that if Liverpool were to win that I wouldn't argue although this Liverpool team are worth much much more than the FA CUP. Everyone can see that what Klopp has built and continues to improve is a team made to compete against the best. But this has come during a period where this Manchester a City are literally on their own up there. It doesn't mean they (City) can't be beat though... But doing it merits something massive if it were to occur! It's still a domestic trophy and to compare it to a glorified friendly is nonsense. We are talking about a club that hasn't won anything since 2012 yet has injected a shit ton of money. Blaming your short comings on City being so dominate is a pitiful excuse. Small time mentality even. We were fucking awful last year yet still won the FA Cup. Liverpool even knocked City out of the Champions League that same season. It's about having that bottle and actually winning silverware to match the progression Klopp has done with Liverpool. These player have won fuck all in their careers so to say the League Cup isn't worth winning for them is laughable. They should be grabbing anything they can get.
LFCMadLad Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Cicero said: That would be a terrific season though. Well, obviously the double is the best thing going bar the treble. However, with the investment Liverpool have injected, to win literally nothing for the third straight year under Klopp should be concerning. Even the league cup would show sign of progress. Give the players a taste of silverware moving forward. And The FA Cup should always be seen as one of the priorities. Concerning? Are you being serious? The steps we have taken since Klopp took over, in literally every department of the club, is mind blowing. Before Klopp we could barely scrape a place in the top 4, now we are getting to CL finals, europa league finals and are keeping up with the possibly the best team in Premiere League history. The FA Cup btw is seen by every top club as third priority out of four, so not really a priority. Would be lovely to win it though I must admit because at the end of the day football is all about pots and pans.
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: Concerning? Are you being serious? The steps we have taken since Klopp took over, in literally every department of the club, is mind blowing. Before Klopp we could barely scrape a place in the top 4, now we are getting to CL finals, europa league finals and are keeping up with the possibly the best team in Premiere League history. The FA Cup btw is seen by every top club as third priority out of four, so not really a priority. Would be lovely to win it though I must admit because at the end of the day football is all about pots and pans. But when will it finally not be enough? Doing so well yet not winning anything? Just how long does Klopp actually need to win 'something'? I'm seriously not having this City being so dominate excuse
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cicero said: It's still a domestic trophy and to compare it to a glorified friendly is nonsense. We are talking about a club that hasn't won anything since 2012 yet has injected a shit ton of money. Blaming your short comings on City being so dominate is a pitiful excuse. Small time mentality even. We were fucking awful last year yet still won the FA Cup. Liverpool even knocked City out of the Champions League that same season. It's about having that bottle and actually winning silverware to match the progression Klopp has done with Liverpool. These player have won fuck all in their careers so to say the League Cup isn't worth winning for them is laughable. They should be grabbing anything they can get. Winning a league title as you well know is the most difficult thing to do out of all the competitions available to any club. There is no luck involved like in a cup competition. To supersede a monster like Manchester City over 38 games right now is very difficult. Just look at Real Madrid's record in La Liga compared to their recent record in the Champions League (a cup competition). As for the value between the Charity Shield and the League Cup... The difference is almost negligent other than in the Charity Shield you have two winning clubs (League Champions and FA CUP Winners) battling it out. It should have the same importance as the European Super Cup and the Club World Cup.
LFCMadLad Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cicero said: But when will it finally not be enough? Doing so well yet not winning anything? Just how long does Klopp actually need to win 'something'? I'm seriously not having this City being so dominate excuse It's not an excuse, it's a nailed on fact! If we win the league it would be an absolutely remarkable achiement. If we run them close it would be a fantastic effort. I think everyone can accept that we now have the second best side in the league. When Klopp arrived we probably had the sixth best side, at a push. If we win nothing this season then Klopp is under still under no pressure whatsoever.
Dr. Gonzo Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: Concerning? Are you being serious? The steps we have taken since Klopp took over, in literally every department of the club, is mind blowing. Before Klopp we could barely scrape a place in the top 4, now we are getting to CL finals, europa league finals and are keeping up with the possibly the best team in Premiere League history. The FA Cup btw is seen by every top club as third priority out of four, so not really a priority. Would be lovely to win it though I must admit because at the end of the day football is all about pots and pans. Yeah we’ve made a shitload of progress despite not winning anything. We’re so much better placed to be in a position to win things. You just have to look at the squad and his first XI and compare it to the squad now, and you can tell we’ve come a long way. And between this season and last season we’ve adjusted to overcome our biggest weaknesses. How many goals had we conceded at this point last season compared to our 7 now? How many times were we told we can’t win ugly or can’t control a match and that we’d need to do that to really contend? And we’ve clearly shown we’ve added that to our game (bonus lol’s to the people who’ve thrown that criticism at us last season and then say we need to be less cautious and more exciting, like last year). I do think that this season more than the end of last season does demonstrate that our expectation should be higher. Prior to last season, I think us winning something would be just very good fortune. This season I think we have reason to legitimately expect to be contenders for the league and more. And I suspect next season that expectation and the pressure to win will be higher. But I’m not going to start calling for Klopp’s head if we don’t win anything this year so long as we keep this kind of form up. Because then I think it’s just unfortunate we haven’t won anything after a very strong season. But further forward progress will obviously mean heightened expectations.
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: It's not an excuse, it's a nailed on fact! If we win the league it would be an absolutely remarkable achiement. If we run them close it would be a fantastic effort. What's preventing you from doing well in the League cup or FA Cup? City too?
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: It's not an excuse, it's a nailed on fact! If we win the league it would be an absolutely remarkable achiement. If we run them close it would be a fantastic effort. I said at the start of the season that Klopp had no excuse for competing for the title this season considering everything that's surrounded competitiveness over the past 24 months or so... The obvious continuous evolution and advancement. You didn't particularly like that pressure being put on Liverpool and Klopp when a I said that but see... You see! This is what I was talking about because you ARE competing. You're competing because that's where you belong. All the same... I maintain that no other side since the great Liverpool sides of the late 70s and 80s have been as dominant as this Manchester City side and if you were to win the title it would be a bigger feat than winning the European Cup right now.
LFCMadLad Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Cicero said: What's preventing you from doing well in the League cup or FA Cup? City too? Well the FA Cup would be nice but as we all know, teams fighting for league titles and CL titles priorities, which means players are often rested in the early rounds, rightly or wrongly.
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: Well the FA Cup would be nice but as we all know, teams fighting for league titles and CL titles priorities, which means players are often rested in the early rounds, rightly or wrongly. My point is, you lot should be challenging for the highest honors, especially with the investment now. But to blame your short comings, even the league cup and FA Cup, on City, is so so poor.
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 Let me say that these past few dozen posts are what this forum is all about... It's what makes this place so good and how without silly trolls derailing threads with their own agendas we can all have differing opinions and argue (debate) our points in a very enjoyable manner even if we oppose each other's views. This is what I love about this place and THIS is what attracts debate and argument.
Dr. Gonzo Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cicero said: What's preventing you from doing well in the League cup or FA Cup? City too? We’re prevented in doing well in the league cup because we’ve been knocked out, for starters I don’t think runs in Cups necessarily are an indication of making progress. Especially the one legged ties. Lets say we rest players in the FA cup against Wolves (because we’re probably going to with our defender injuries and the festive fixture congestion) and we lose 3-2 after a spirited performance. That’s obviously bad news for us because we’d be knocked out of the FA cup, we will have failed in that competition. Is that indicative that we haven’t made progress though? Maybe a little, but I’d argue that it doesn’t show a lot. And let’s say we get to a final and lose in a final again. Then that’s a good cup run, but also doesn’t really demonstrate progress because we’ve made finals and lost before. But it does demonstrate that we can year in year out sustain a good cup run. I obviously want us to win as many cups as possible. But there’s plenty of good cup sides that struggle to really kick on and take it to the next level. Look at Sevilla, continually winning the EL - but how long have they won it and then not pushed on beyond winning it. I want good cup runs and I also want to see progress made to regularly contend in the league. I don’t think short term thinking will work with us like it has with significantly richer sides in Chelsea and Manchester City. What’s worked for us historically was stability and working towards a common goal, even after manager changes. And recent manager changes for us have not gone smoothly either, there is almost always a bedding in time. Replacing Klopp will be hard because he has done so much for us and we’ll be wanting someone who will be working with a similar philosophy and towards the same goals we’ve been working towards. It will be very difficult and I hope we see continued progress under Klopp and we do win things and keep him for as long as we can.
Dr. Gonzo Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Let me say that these past few dozen posts are what this forum is all about... It's what makes this place so good and how without silly trolls derailing threads with their own agendas we can all have differing opinions and argue (debate) our points in a very enjoyable manner even if we oppose each other's views. This is what I love about this place and THIS is what attracts debate and argument. Debates with @Cicero are always class, especially as I think we can both see where we’re both coming from with our arguments so we do our best to persuade each other we’re right. I dunno if we’ve ever successfully swayed each other’s beliefs but it always makes for interesting discussion
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Debates with @Cicero are always class, especially as I think we can both see where we’re both coming from with our arguments so we do our best to persuade each other we’re right. I dunno if we’ve ever successfully swayed each other’s beliefs but it always makes for interesting discussion I agree... With Cicero you're guaranteed proper football debate no matter whether you agree with him or not because his points are always credible and based on substance.
LFCMadLad Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 26 minutes ago, Cicero said: My point is, you lot should be challenging for the highest honors, especially with the investment now. But to blame your short comings, even the league cup and FA Cup, on City, is so so poor. We are challenging for top honours though? We are top of the league and we just competed in the final of the Champions league. Not blaming any shortcomings on City either, just pointing out a very big and obvious obstacle that we need to overcome. If we narrowly miss out because City have carried on their form from last season, then that's nothing to be ashamed of and certainly nothing that would see Klopp come under pressure. Simply saying we should win everything, with this sort of competition, without accepting just how far we have come in Klopps short time here is also very poor.
Cicero Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: Simply saying we should win everything, with this sort of competition, without accepting just how far we have come in Klopps short time here is also very poor. Never said you should win everything. You should be challenging for everything and Winning something under Klopp, especially this season, would reflect the progression he's made. Just how long does he have until narrowly missing out isn't good enough? It's the same argument with Spurs under Poch, however their spending has held him back tremendously.
LFCMadLad Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cicero said: Never said you should win everything. You should be challenging for everything and Winning something under Klopp, especially this season, would reflect the progression he's made. Just how long does he have until narrowly missing out isn't good enough? As long as it takes!
SirBalon Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 1 hour ago, LFCMadLad said: As long as it takes! What if it takes 30 years and Klopp dies of old age in the 29th year meaning it all starts again with a new coach?
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