The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Dr. Gonzo]

21 minutes ago, Spike said:

Less time. The camps and atrocities had happened but the ‘final solution’, of calculated mass executions didn’t start until the end of 1941, and most of the murder happening in the follow year. Isn’t that insane? 

To kill four million humans in a year they were executing a minimum of 11,000 people a day. That’s horrifying.

These numbers don’t even include the ten million non-Jewish to be murdered.

Yeah when you consider the general scope and pace of the Holocaust, it's just a bit ridiculous to apply what the Nazis did to Israel. That's not to say Israel's justified in committing war crimes or human rights abuses - nobody is justified in committing war crimes or human rights abuses - but what's happening there isn't really anywhere near the same kind of systematic killing of people.

Israel don't seem to really care about what really happens to Palestinians. Whether that's collateral damage or supporting illegal settlements that forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes - they just don't care. And because the internationally recognised borders and laws have been disregarded for so long, they've gotten away with it and their status quo has effectively replaced the actual rules that should be enforced. It's very bad, I absolutely agree with that, but it's a far cry from the quick systematic genocide of the Holocaust.

It's still appalling and shameful - this whole conflict is, in all honesty, and it blows my mind there hasn't been some kind of actual resolution to the conflict despite it lasting for decades. It's a failure of Israeli leadership, Palestinian leadership, and the international community at large that it's dragged on for this many decades.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Russia & China block the US's UNSC motion calling for a ceasefire between Israel and Palestine. It wasn't unexpected, but it's confusing to see where the international community goes from here. Russia and China had previously made calls for ceasefires - but if they're not going to agree with the US when the US finally is calling for one... how do they get consensus now?

[OrangeKhrush]

Purim is probably the most meaningful of religious days, we get to remember the will of the Jewish spirit against adversity. 

It is fitting that Purim serves to remind us to be stronger than ever as the global community does what it can to pull us apart.   When we face an ideology of extermination it is our obligation to resist.

we remember the courage of our people that ensured we are alive today, and we will honour that with c'huva and Simcha.

Am Yisrael C'hai

[6666]

On 22/03/2024 at 16:58, Dr. Gonzo said:

Russia & China block the US's UNSC motion calling for a ceasefire between Israel and Palestine. It wasn't unexpected, but it's confusing to see where the international community goes from here. Russia and China had previously made calls for ceasefires - but if they're not going to agree with the US when the US finally is calling for one... how do they get consensus now?

The US just doing US things.

They have no real motivation to stop Nazi Israel and their genocide.

[6666]

53 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Purim is probably the most meaningful of religious days, we get to remember the will of the Jewish spirit against adversity. 

It is fitting that Purim serves to remind us to be stronger than ever as the global community does what it can to pull us apart.   When we face an ideology of extermination it is our obligation to resist.

we remember the courage of our people that ensured we are alive today, and we will honour that with c'huva and Simcha.

Am Yisrael C'hai

Something really psychotic about looking at a genocide and talking about how it fills you with religious pride.

[Rucksackfranzose]

6 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Purim is probably the most meaningful of religious days, we get to remember the will of the Jewish spirit against adversity. 

It is fitting that Purim serves to remind us to be stronger than ever as the global community does what it can to pull us apart.   When we face an ideology of extermination it is our obligation to resist.

we remember the courage of our people that ensured we are alive today, and we will honour that with c'huva and Simcha.

Am Yisrael C'hai

The global community wants to tear apart Israel? Since when? The so called Western states showed a lot of solidarity towards Israel, not only the US but also Canada,Australia ;Japan , and the EU. You were deluded, if you thought otherwise. If these countries would indeed do what they can to pull Israel apart, or had done so in that countrie's history Israel wouldn't exist anymore.

Edited March 24 by Rucksackfranzose

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, 6666 said:

The US just doing US things.

They have no real motivation to stop Nazi Israel and their genocide.

Tbf there’s nothing wrong with the idea of releasing civilian hostages and having the UN recognise things that Hamas themselves uploaded to the internet in video format as fact.

Russia and China just see this as a useful distraction from their own problems. But I guess tankies will always simp for them.

[OrangeKhrush]

13 hours ago, 6666 said:

Something really psychotic about looking at a genocide and talking about how it fills you with religious pride.

It is the resistance to a genocide, genocide is just weaponised to suit western agenda, the "left" need to weaponise anti semititism to create a victim class and the "right" need to weaponise anti semititism for political posturing as mostly all Jews vote left.

Both aisles were also feigning sympathy on 8/10 but also questioning what is a reciprocal response.  A reciprocal response to a jihadi regime with genocidal intensions, who give Nazi propaganda to teach their youth, is its utter destruction, that doesn't mean people who don't want anything to do with it, but everyone Hamas fighter and zealot must be dealt with.

[OrangeKhrush]

11 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

The global community wants to tear apart Israel? Since when? The so called Western states showed a lot of solidarity towards Israel, not only the US but also Canada,Australia ;Japan , and the EU. You were deluded, if you thought otherwise. If these countries would indeed do what they can to pull Israel apart, or had done so in that countrie's history Israel wouldn't exist anymore.

They then decide to call ceasefires when political standing took a hit.  The US then tried political insurrection.

The reciprocal response should be, we want Israel to finish the job, however we will mobilise civilian corridors to ensure as many non combatants are kept away and maybe kill a few Hamas terrorists in the process.   

To ask us to live with Hamas is asking us to live with a genocidal ideology that have done nothing but build instruments of war and absolutely fucking nothing for palastine.   Funding of palastine should have stopped a decade ago but our friends told us that everything will be fine.  The amount of cultural reprogramming palastine needs to break Jihadism will take decades to undo and given how spectacularly the UN failed to observe the last conditions I have no faith that the UN has the power to do it.   

I would support full military control of Gaza and WB by the US in support of the UN but that will take 20-30 years before we see the fruits of it.  

I'm losing hope for the west, it is so easily manipulated by lies or skewed truth and we are at that stage where our allies are not listening to our concerns, everything is pushed on this narrative of genocide which is completely untrue when half the deaths are militant, there is also no bombing of Rafah and,/or shelling of people in a tight area, if we really wanted to go Ze German on them Rafah is a Warsaw like Killzone.

The IDF has further provided Gaza nearly 30 tons of food aid and 70 000 litres of clean water as well as medical and general aid but because the UN is so inept they fail to meet the drops and Hamas steals most of it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think @OrangeKhrush and @6666 are just a demonstration of the horseshoe effect in action

[Rucksackfranzose]

3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

They then decide to call ceasefires when political standing took a hit.  The US then tried political insurrection.

The reciprocal response should be, we want Israel to finish the job, however we will mobilise civilian corridors to ensure as many non combatants are kept away and maybe kill a few Hamas terrorists in the process.   

To ask us to live with Hamas is asking us to live with a genocidal ideology that have done nothing but build instruments of war and absolutely fucking nothing for palastine.   Funding of palastine should have stopped a decade ago but our friends told us that everything will be fine.  The amount of cultural reprogramming palastine needs to break Jihadism will take decades to undo and given how spectacularly the UN failed to observe the last conditions I have no faith that the UN has the power to do it.   

I would support full military control of Gaza and WB by the US in support of the UN but that will take 20-30 years before we see the fruits of it.  

I'm losing hope for the west, it is so easily manipulated by lies or skewed truth and we are at that stage where our allies are not listening to our concerns, everything is pushed on this narrative of genocide which is completely untrue when half the deaths are militant, there is also no bombing of Rafah and,/or shelling of people in a tight area, if we really wanted to go Ze German on them Rafah is a Warsaw like Killzone.

The IDF has further provided Gaza nearly 30 tons of food aid and 70 000 litres of clean water as well as medical and general aid but because the UN is so inept they fail to meet the drops and Hamas steals most of it.

At the bolded part: You're neither an Israeli nor living in Israel, so nobody asks you to do anything like this you mentioned.Know you're Jewish, yet while there are Jews like you, who aren't Israeli exist, there are also Muslim and Christian Israelis. Stop that equating the state of Israel with the Jewish community, it's outright wrong.

Edited March 24 by Rucksackfranzose

[OrangeKhrush]

The China/Russia veto looks more of a political denial of entry rather than due to anything untoward about the US proposal.  Russia were knitpicking a term and inferred it should rather say forced ceasefire.   

It is just China and Russia trying to stop America getting a W, that being said China and Russia have no business in the UN along with about 90 other countries.

I would say ceasefire terms should impose a obligation on Egypt to open the Rafah crossing to allow western military checkpoints to allow mass Gazan movement to proper establish military protected camps.

Any persons that seek to avoid the checkpoints to bypass into Egypt can be left to the Egyptian military.   

Anyone looking to stop refugees moving should be dealt with, that should clear Rafah of everyone that intends to leave.

The same applies to northern Gaza a refugee camp to allow people that don't want to be their can get out.  Hospital staff and patients be transfered to Israel.

It's about removing as much collateral as possible to isolate the remaining fighters.  I don't believe Hamas ever had 30000 fighters like they proclaimed, 15k is more realistic, 20 on the upper end.  Trying to weed them out now

[MUFC]

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/candace-owens-fired-daily-wire-ben-shapiro-b2517173.html

[6666]

51 minutes ago, MUFC said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/candace-owens-fired-daily-wire-ben-shapiro-b2517173.html

Being anti-Jewish is okay and is freedom of speech. Being anti-Israel isn't okay and is antisemitic.

That seems to be how conservative political coverage works in America. Along with how Republican politicians also think (or are bought to think).

[6666]

3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

It's about removing as much collateral as possible to isolate the remaining fighters.

It's actually sad how much you believe this is something Israel wants. Not sure if Israel themselves even care enough anymore to push that lie.

IDF soldiers killing random innocent people, recording it, and sharing it amongst themselves for a laugh is the norm. Everytime I think they can't be more depraved, they find a new low.

Anyway, let's hope Israel finds the secret tunnel they're looking for. Hopefully it leads to hell and Israel can go occupy that land. They'll fit right in.

[OrangeKhrush]

Joint logistics over the shore is an interesting concept that can potentially work.  His suggestions are not bad.

[OrangeKhrush]

19 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

At the bolded part: You're neither an Israeli nor living in Israel, so nobody asks you to do anything like this you mentioned.Know you're Jewish, yet while there are Jews like you, who aren't Israeli exist, there are also Muslim and Christian Israelis. Stop that equating the state of Israel with the Jewish community, it's outright wrong.

I get what you are trying to say but most of what you say is rooted in modern anti Zionism.

Jews living in the diaspora are no less Jews to those in Israel, in most of our customs and practices it is about being children of Israel and being thankful to the land of Israel.  Every Shabbat when I was at school we would say Shema and sing Hatikvah.  Every Jewish person has a right of return to Israel.

I can accept that some Jews don't want to return or not interested that said all Jews are connected by heritage.

I have dual nationality so I do take interest in affairs in Israel.   It is a difficult time and we often don't agree with each other on a lot of issues, my family for instance is WW3 when it comes to family views nothing even related to this conflict we disagree on a lot, some would say that is the Jewish way.

Denialism of Zionism, or Jews as an singular ethno group is anti semititism and criticising how things are conducted is not.  The west has expected us to keep trying something that has been tried for so long and not worked, the fact that Arabs live and hold office in Israel is proof that Jews and Israel is not the barrier to peace.

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

In a world where there's a semblance of justice we'd start seeing a push for the ICC to be putting Hamas leadership on trial, but also Israeli/IDF leadership implicated in war crimes and human rights violations as well. We've got 2 sides that have: a.) leadership that has an appalling disregard for human life; b.) don't want the other side to exist.

Break the cycle of hatred and violence because neither Israeli nor Palestinian leadership is interested in anything than ensuring this conflict remains endless.

[OrangeKhrush]

This is going to end in another Western created Iran and ISIS, I already said earlier in the year western fragility will create the conditions of mass suffering.  

Give people freedom and they choose a psychopath, Marwan Barghouti is favourite to beat Maghmud Abbas, this will end up in tens of thousands of palastinians oppressed by their own, however that will need to be all on the West.

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/961

Polls in war tend to throw up the general partisanship of it, well if they Barghouti to lead them he is a Islamist hardliner, wants a Islamic caliphate to rule from India to Spain,  normal people will mean nothing.

Mark my words this will end in lots of tears.

[Rucksackfranzose]

3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

This is going to end in another Western created Iran and ISIS, I already said earlier in the year western fragility will create the conditions of mass suffering.  

Give people freedom and they choose a psychopath, Marwan Barghouti is favourite to beat Maghmud Abbas, this will end up in tens of thousands of palastinians oppressed by their own, however that will need to be all on the West.

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/961

Polls in war tend to throw up the general partisanship of it, well if they Barghouti to lead them he is a Islamist hardliner, wants a Islamic caliphate to rule from India to Spain,  normal people will mean nothing.

Mark my words this will end in lots of tears.

Yep, only the western countries fault. The idea the IDF bombing the shit out of Gaza might fire up the hate many Palestinians feel for Israel and its inhabitants didn't come to you, of course. Impressive mental gymnastics for somebody in favour of war crimes. You only have to go back far enough in this thread to find your post advocating the use of white phosphorus against Hamas, before you deny the last claim.

Edited March 26 by Rucksackfranzose

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Yep, only the western countries fault. The idea the IDF bombing the shit out of Gaza might fire up the hate many Palestinians feel for Israel and its inhabitants didn't come to you, of course. Impressive mental gymnastics for somebody in favour of war crimes. You only have to go back far enough in this thread to find your post advocating the use of white phosphorus against Hamas, before you deny the last claim.

The West may get their wish of a permanent ceasefire,  and the favourite candidate to be the next leader of a "free" Palastine is a extremist responsible for the Intifada's,   that is from Palestinian sources.   It has the fingerprints of yet another ISIS in the making.    Will they be digging up more water pipes to make rockets under the auscpices of acting in the interests of their people.   Lets try it again,  I am sure it will work this time,  how long will their be peace? 6 months, a year,  two tops?

A transitional government is the only way to ensure any chance of change,  but the west is not interested in doing the work,  it will be decades to build up to self governance.

 

 

[6666]

Calling for a ceasefire still obviously doesn't seem like enough but at least it signals a symbolic change in how Israel will be viewed. Hopefully.

And the US, who obviously were genuine with their ceasefire motion... decided to abstain. Still, them not getting in the way is a massive improvement for them.

Israel respecting the decision is unlikely though. They've gotten away with war crimes so long that they probably view it as their right.

Sanctions against Israel are the next step but even that'd take a lot of effort.

Maybe the Tel Aviv Trials will take place in 2 decades...

[6666]

6 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Give people freedom and they choose a psychopath, 

Are you suggesting that Israelis should have their freedom taken away?

[Rucksackfranzose]

7 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

 

Give people freedom and they choose a psychopath,

So our self proclaimed liberitarian shows their true colours. You're not a libertarian which would be unpleasant enough, you're indeed an authoritarian proto-fascist. Or is there a possibility to interprete that sentence in any other way than supporting oppression and withhold of liberty?

Edited March 26 by Rucksackfranzose

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

This is going to end in another Western created Iran and ISIS, I already said earlier in the year western fragility will create the conditions of mass suffering.  

Tbh the present day situation is also a western made catastrophe, so predicting another one doesn't really mean things will be any better, worse, or even any different at all to how things are now.