The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

17 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How's he a sell out? He's taking western aid but doesn't really have one iota of concern about doing things the west isn't in favour of. He's had to marginally pull back because of the outcry of the use of the IDF to murder western aid workers - which was beyond the pale and unjustifiable regardless of whether Hamas is stealing aid or not (perhaps the strikes on WKC workers should have been directed at Hamas militants that were stealing the aid rather than trying to send a message to aid workers in Gaza).

With his popularity at an all time low, all he's really got to cling onto power is to pander to the Ben-Gvir's of his party - and that means fighting a war in a way that the world will find detestable. And that's basically exactly what Hamas is banking on as long as they can stay alive for long enough to wait out the world opinion turning.

If public opinion turns too much, that likely means Israel faces aid being cut or having conditions placed on it before receiving aid. Can Israel survive without support from the West when Russia has sided with Israel's enemies in Hamas, Houthis, and Iran?

I think it's in Israel's best interests to get Netanyahu out of power ASAP and to start fighting the war in a way that's not going to make Israel and the IDF look like they couldn't give a fuck if every Palestinian dropped dead.

The Likhud party is always useless that placate to the western puppet masters,  all he does is goes on camera talks this tough game but has somehow now allowed western weakness that was warned about in 2003 dictate national security and show Iran and by extension Russia and China that the Western Alliance is weak.    

Somehow Israel has been brow beaten into accepting a withdrawal that does not even include the return of hostages and Netenyahu accepted that.   He deserves to be voted out of office,  he has shown weakness when the people have demanded full control of Gaza to remove one threat.  Ramadan came along and all progress got halted.    I have also made my point enough that aid support should have been carried out by western allies under military protection but nobody wants to get their hands dirty, why?  if you look at populist political agendas in europe and america,  Islamism is becoming very influential,   polls on GBN showed around 47% of polling muslims supported Hamas,  then you have 5Pillars and Dilly Hussain shamelessly stating what the goal in the UK is,  yet there are actual Brits that clap like seals to these people.   disturbing times ahead. 

Of course this also is a wonderful result for westerners that try not to show their hate of Israel and Jews but through their words and actions scream it loud and clear and now it is back to accepting daily rocket attacks and vociferous hatred,  this is not a win for the west,  it is going to be a disaster for Palestinians and somehow Hamas are viewed as good guys in western lensing.   We have a major problem and nobody seems to be willing to grow a spine. 

Does the solution mean killing civilians,  no it doesn't however we need to accept that Hamas have stated that that is their goal,  to cause mass collateral,  does that mean you have to be weak in the face of it?   There is a certain level where it needs to be weighted against the end goal,  the end goal is removing control from Hamas,  disrupting their ability to brainwash people and route them out then kill them with their ideology, this is the outcome that preserves maximum number of civilians live,  and live in true peace which is a benefit to Israel and Palestinians. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Likhud party is always useless that placate to the western puppet masters,  all he does is goes on camera talks this tough game but has somehow now allowed western weakness that was warned about in 2003 dictate national security and show Iran and by extension Russia and China that the Western Alliance is weak.    

Somehow Israel has been brow beaten into accepting a withdrawal that does not even include the return of hostages and Netenyahu accepted that.   He deserves to be voted out of office,  he has shown weakness when the people have demanded full control of Gaza to remove one threat.  Ramadan came along and all progress got halted.    I have also made my point enough that aid support should have been carried out by western allies under military protection but nobody wants to get their hands dirty, why?  if you look at populist political agendas in europe and america,  Islamism is becoming very influential,   polls on GBN showed around 47% of polling muslims supported Hamas,  then you have 5Pillars and Dilly Hussain shamelessly stating what the goal in the UK is,  yet there are actual Brits that clap like seals to these people.   disturbing times ahead. 

Of course this also is a wonderful result for westerners that try not to show their hate of Israel and Jews but through their words and actions scream it loud and clear and now it is back to accepting daily rocket attacks and vociferous hatred,  this is not a win for the west,  it is going to be a disaster for Palestinians and somehow Hamas are viewed as good guys in western lensing.   We have a major problem and nobody seems to be willing to grow a spine. 

Does the solution mean killing civilians,  no it doesn't however we need to accept that Hamas have stated that that is their goal,  to cause mass collateral,  does that mean you have to be weak in the face of it?   There is a certain level where it needs to be weighted against the end goal,  the end goal is removing control from Hamas,  disrupting their ability to brainwash people and route them out then kill them with their ideology, this is the outcome that preserves maximum number of civilians live,  and live in true peace which is a benefit to Israel and Palestinians. 

I don’t think the war is stopping any time soon. But you’ve said it yourself, the solution isn’t killing civilians & Hamas wants collateral damage as much as possible. So obviously the tactics that lead to huge civilian casualties, like bombing places they’ve told people to take shelter because they’ve heard one Hamas leader is amongst them, should be dropped.

Israel is very precise when it wants to avoid blowback it’s worried about. A robot controlled machine gun that won’t even kill the person next to an assassination target is a marvel of spycraft and warfare. So maybe rely on Mossad for dealing with Gaza, rather than Shin Bet - who should probably getting a lot of blame for the present day as well. Precision bombing to target a complex attached to an embassy, but not damage the embassy at all is a remarkably precise strike. So maybe go after Hamas using precise strikes, not the kind of indiscriminate shit we see when the IDF takes on Palestinians.

But the solution to extremist terrorism isn’t extremist warfare. And it is extremist warfare - a quick comparison to what the US did in Iraq proves that the way Israel is fighting shows a blatant disregard for Palestinian life.

[6666]

19 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

disrupting their ability to brainwash people and route them out then kill them with their ideology, this is the outcome that preserves maximum number of civilians live.

You'd be correct if you were talking about the IDF and the Israeli government. Unfortunately you're the one that's brainwashed into embracing a genocide because of the psychos that brought you up.

[6666]

"Rumours" of Iran possibly responded to Israel's attack on them and obviously that bought puppet Biden is repeating his unwavering support for Israel. No "Iran have the right to defend themselves and kill whoever and how many they want" this time it seems...

The US would love Iran involved though. Use Ukraine as a proxy against Russia and use Israel as a proxy against Iran. Dream scenario for them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 hours ago, 6666 said:

"Rumours" of Iran possibly responded to Israel's attack on them and obviously that bought puppet Biden is repeating his unwavering support for Israel. No "Iran have the right to defend themselves and kill whoever and how many they want" this time it seems...

The US would love Iran involved though. Use Ukraine as a proxy against Russia and use Israel as a proxy against Iran. Dream scenario for them.

I don't think either the US or Israel are keen on a war with Iran. There's no removing the IR without invading and occupying and geographically, Iran is a nightmare to invade. This Israel war already has Ukraine on the brink because of US aid to them drying up, no way they can sustain Ukraine + Israel v. Gaza + war with Iran. Because for all the military Israel aid, they can't actually wage a war on Iran that can meaningfully remove the IR - I think only the US or China could sustain a long war on Iran. Can Biden afford a Middle Eastern war in a country more tough to fight in than Afghanistan and Iraq... during an election year? Not really.

Don't forget, it's a country that withstood Iraq trying to steal it's territory with support from the US, USSR, UK, Germany, France, and various Arab states - it's not an easy country to beat, even with a proxy war where the world powers turn a blind eye to chemical weapons being dropped on civilians.

At best, if Iran responds by bombing or firing missiles at Israel, Israel responds by bombing or firing missiles at Iran. But I doubt that even happens, Israel's said "if it's a direct attack from Iran we will respond" - Iran's not going to make a direct attack when they've had so much success using proxies on Israel.

The worst Iran will to do Israel is promise revenge, then go back to killing the kids demanding human rights. Look at their "revenge" for Soleimani (the human kotlet). Calling up the US and warning they're going to fire strikes at parts of a US base and making sure the targeted areas would cause minimal casualties - because they know any actual serious response they do just means a more serious response in return.

[OrangeKhrush]

Iran is stuck in an internal war, the populace is anti government, millions renounced islam and became Christian or secular, there were protestors in Tehran tearing down palastine flags, singing and dancing in the face of a government that wants to make their own people miserable and subjected them to the hardest form of Islam

The Ayatollahs are facing civil insurrection, the very kind that they used to get power.

Hezbollah remains the likely source but I think they are concerned.  Hezbollah has enemies in Lebanon namely the government and Christians who side with Israel,  they know a war on two fronts looms.  Lebanon is also not as dense in population making targetting Hezbollah strong holds much easier than Gaza 

Lastly the US will engage in war if Iran carries out any attack

[Spike]

The only people that think there are millions of Christians in Iran are cooked youtubers and their viewers.

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, Spike said:

The only people that think there are millions of Christians in Iran are cooked youtubers and their viewers.

There’s been a slight rise in people converting to Christianity, but it’s not like people are converting in droves. More people are just abandoning religion altogether. Zoroastrian symbolism is on the rise as people using symbols of Iran’s pre-Islamic past are used as symbols of resisting their government… but it’s not as though people are actually becoming practicing Zoroastrians.

Unsurprisingly though, people living under a government that oppresses them in the name of religion are becoming a hell of a lot less religious.

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There’s been a slight rise in people converting to Christianity, but it’s not like people are converting in droves. More people are just abandoning religion altogether. Zoroastrian symbolism is on the rise as people using symbols of Iran’s pre-Islamic past are used as symbols of resisting their government… but it’s not as though people are actually becoming practicing Zoroastrians.

Unsurprisingly though, people living under a government that oppresses them in the name of religion are becoming a hell of a lot less religious.

It’s just an islamophobia trope, the people that say shit like ‘Iranians are converting to Christianity’ are just saying that to give their own religion moral superiority and to give a justification to whatever anti-Islam ideals they hold.  Even I know that Christianity is so minor in the history of Iran that I wouldn’t be surprised of there are more Mazdayasnas and that is nearly a dead religion. Let’s go for it, lets get some secular Zoroastrians, I’m on board with big bonfires and sky burials, that’s metal as fuck - the sister rooting can stay with the Sassanids though.

Edited April 12 by Spike

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Spike said:

It’s just an islamophobia trope, the people that say shit like ‘Iranians are converting to Christianity’ are just saying that to give their own religion moral superiority and to give a justification to whatever anti-Islam ideals they hold.  Even I know that Christianity is so minor in the history of Iran that I wouldn’t be surprised of there are more Mazdayasnas and that is nearly a dead religion. Let’s go for it, lets get some secular Zoroastrians, I’m on board with big bonfires and sky burials, that’s metal as fuck - the sister rooting can stay with the Sassanids though.

There's actually a decent sized Christian population because there a decent number of Armenians in Iran - and people living in Esfahan take advantage of the fact there's many Christian Armenians who are allowed to buy/sell wine by making friends with them so they can skirt the alcohol ban. But you're right that Christianity has a pretty minor history in Iran, outside of Armenian-Iranians... I don't know of any other Christian Iranians. But there's enough of them that it's one of the 4 protected religions in Iran - along with Islam, Zoroastrians (even though they've faced persecution lol), and Jews (same lol).

[Rucksackfranzose]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There's actually a decent sized Christian population because there a decent number of Armenians in Iran - and people living in Esfahan take advantage of the fact there's many Christian Armenians who are allowed to buy/sell wine by making friends with them so they can skirt the alcohol ban. But you're right that Christianity has a pretty minor history in Iran, outside of Armenian-Iranians... I don't know of any other Christian Iranians. But there's enough of them that it's one of the 4 protected religions in Iran - along with Islam, Zoroastrians (even though they've faced persecution lol), and Jews (same lol).

Might be wrong here, still seem to remember an also autotochtone so called Assyrian Christian church does exist, as well?

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Might be wrong here, still seem to remember an also autotochtone so called Assyrian Christian church does exist, as well?

 

Yeah there's an Assyrian population in Iran too - I do think it's significantly less than the populations of Syrian/Iraqi Assyrians though. I'm not sure about that. Tbh, I forgot they're Christians too - looking at the numbers though, they're an extreme minority even compared to Armenians living in Iran.

[Rucksackfranzose]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I think an Assyrian population in Iran too - I do think it's significantly less than the populations of Syrian/Iraqi Assyrians though. I'm not sure about that. Tbh, I forgot they're Christians too - looking at the numbers though, they're an extreme minority even compared to Armenians living in Iran.

Just googled it: according to "Open Doors" there're a bit less than half a million Christians in Iran a county of 88M inhabitants. Not even 1%, millions my arse.

[6666]

Israeli settler mobs continuing to attack Palestinians in the West Bank. Extremely frustrating that this is just supposed to be considered normal.

Iran's government are a bunch of cunts but maybe they can take a break from killing their own citizens and do something good like take out a lot of IDF terrorists and some settlers.

[OrangeKhrush]

21 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There’s been a slight rise in people converting to Christianity, but it’s not like people are converting in droves. More people are just abandoning religion altogether. Zoroastrian symbolism is on the rise as people using symbols of Iran’s pre-Islamic past are used as symbols of resisting their government… but it’s not as though people are actually becoming practicing Zoroastrians.

Unsurprisingly though, people living under a government that oppresses them in the name of religion are becoming a hell of a lot less religious.

I think it is more secularisation than any form of religion or spirituality.   When the IRGC tries to force islam on people it leads to rebellion. 

[OrangeKhrush]

8 hours ago, 6666 said:

Israeli settler mobs continuing to attack Palestinians in the West Bank. Extremely frustrating that this is just supposed to be considered normal.

Iran's government are a bunch of cunts but maybe they can take a break from killing their own citizens and do something good like take out a lot of IDF terrorists and some settlers.

So your solution is to do what has got us to this point again?  forgive me but that is a stupid idea unless you enjoy Palestinian suffering.  Ironically Iran's "don't really give a shit" is the exact same "don't give a shit" that Hamas and PLO show towards Palestinians,  what is also ironic is the same revolution in Iran is the same revolution Palestinians need against their government.   This "kill jews and israel" thing has been tried for around 120 years and it hasn't exactly worked out well. 

this all started in the late 1800's as "treat jews badly and they will leave on their own",  when that failed and the idea of a Jewish state became a certainty,  the Pan Islamist Movement shifted to "lets kill them before they become a nation",  a policy that has been in place since 1905,  clearly it is not working.

I fully support our resistance to islamic jihad and I fully support our peoples right to exist as a nation state.  That being said I am upset with some of the handling of things by someone that portrays strength in speech but acts like a watered milk.  I am very opposed to the west bank settlement expansion programs largely carried out by some radicals that have no place in the Knesset are are doing massive reputational damage.    If Netenyahu had a spine he would have thrown these lunatics to the wayside even if it meant an earlier end to his term,  he would have gone out with dignity,  instead he lets the do what they want without control and what they are doing is completely wrong.

I also have reservations about why there was the need to even get involved in certain incidents,  the two in question was the convoy incident in February,  at the time Israel was starting to claw back public perception and while the facts are vary much open to tennis between both sides of the global media,  the thing is there was absolutely no need to be there to begin with.   The other was the World Kitchen situation,  even as a mistake it is not acceptable and it seems to be carried out by a  rogue section within the chain of command that know they are losing political power and are hell bent on being petty.   Instead of throwing commanders under the bus,  the people that sanctioned it came from within the government and It was likely from some of those lunatics that Netanyahu cannot control any more. 

The last one has been the lack of strategy when it comes to ceasefire talks,   for me the position was always two fold:

1. Give back our people 
2. International intervention.

How do I see a best case outcome?  well it would be a Palestine and Israel existing,  it doesn't have to be holding hands singing kumbaya,  it can just be safety in the knowledge they are not harbouring intentions to harm us.   That would be very nice. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 hours ago, 6666 said:

Israeli settler mobs continuing to attack Palestinians in the West Bank. Extremely frustrating that this is just supposed to be considered normal.

Iran's government are a bunch of cunts but maybe they can take a break from killing their own citizens and do something good like take out a lot of IDF terrorists and some settlers.

Ah there it is, the moment you twerk for Khamenei.

[6666]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ah there it is, the moment you twerk for Khamenei.

I just said they're a bunch of cunts... You have comprehension issues. You seem to have issues against everyone that might do something against the IDF because you're the one continually twerking for Israel and giving a "they're not that bad" vibe.

[Dr. Gonzo]

42 minutes ago, 6666 said:

I just said they're a bunch of cunts... You have comprehension issues. You seem to have issues against everyone that might do something against the IDF because you're the one continually twerking for Israel and giving a "they're not that bad" vibe.

I’ve called the IDF war criminals, you’re hoping a bunch of people that use Palestinians as pawns just do something to kill Jews and start another long Middle Eastern war because you’re so deep into their propaganda 

[OrangeKhrush]

We need better politicians

[Spike]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’ve called the IDF war criminals, you’re hoping a bunch of people that use Palestinians as pawns just do something to kill Jews and start another long Middle Eastern war because you’re so deep into their propaganda 

You’re telling me you think it’s a bad idea for regional powerhouses to use foreign military assets to commit atrocities? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Iran seizes cargo ship in Strait of Hormuz after threats to close waterway. Lmao if this is Iran’s response to a bunch of sepahis blown up in Syria, what a joke.

Stealing a Portuguese ship owned by a company from Monaco, owned by a guy who was from Israel but hasn’t lived there in decades and lives in Monaco. With a crew all from the Philippines.

It’s be like trying to send a message to South Africa by stealing that shipment of Tesla’s held up in Sweden 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Spike said:

You’re telling me you think it’s a bad idea for regional powerhouses to use foreign military assets to commit atrocities? 

Indeed. Whether it’s Iran, Israel, the U.S., Russia, etc - it’s not really a good thing for anyone not wanting a massive war that’ll take a seriously long time to resolve with a seriously sad amount of death and suffering for civilians to deal with.

Might be lost on those human rights loudly cheering for Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, & the IR, like this conflict is a football match… but begging for this to escalate into an even wider regional conflict ultimately isn’t going to bring peace to the Palestinians in a way they anticipate.

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Indeed. Whether it’s Iran, Israel, the U.S., Russia, etc - it’s not really a good thing for anyone not wanting a massive war that’ll take a seriously long time to resolve with a seriously sad amount of death and suffering for civilians to deal with.

Might be lost on those human rights loudly cheering for Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, & the IR, like this conflict is a football match… but begging for this to escalate into an even wider regional conflict ultimately isn’t going to bring peace to the Palestinians in a way they anticipate.

I have a friend that conditionally supports Hamas as he states they are the only means that the Palestinian people have for self-determination whether just or not, and I tell him I have no support for Hamas as I don’t believe a boot of any colour on someone’s neck is positive, nor do I buy into the cope of ‘he is a monster, but he is our monster’. I have no support from Israel either, as they cultivated this situation into a war and admittedly so, they are the power brokers in this war all terms and conditions are determined through them.

I support both the people of Israel and Palestine not having to suffer through a war that ultimately serves no purpose but to strengthen the imperial goals of the power holders in Israel and abroad, they don’t suffer from their ivory towers.

[Dr. Gonzo]

26 minutes ago, Spike said:

I have a friend that conditionally supports Hamas as he states they are the only means that the Palestinian people have for self-determination whether just or not, and I tell him I have no support for Hamas as I don’t believe a boot of any colour on someone’s neck is positive, nor do I buy into the cope of ‘he is a monster, but he is our monster’. I have no support from Israel either, as they cultivated this situation into a war and admittedly so, they are the power brokers in this war all terms and conditions are determined through them.

I support both the people of Israel and Palestine not having to suffer through a war that ultimately serves no purpose but to strengthen the imperial goals of the power holders in Israel and abroad, they don’t suffer from their ivory towers.

Yeah you’ve got a pretty sane thought process to this conflict and mind is similar.