[VOTE] Team of the 21st Century - CDM - Quarter Finals

[Dr. Gonzo]

Tbf to Gareth Barry... in his prime he was a really really good box to box midfielder.

I certainly wouldn't have him or Carrick in my best XI of a century lists though.

[Stan]

14 minutes ago, Vader said:

Carrick wasn't against Kante, Viera, Redondo, Makelele or Keane though. He was against Van Bommel. I voted for Carrick because I knew how he played and knew little to nothing about Van Bommel as a player.

I also never said he was "criticized" he was just not talked about. At all, at least from my memory. I also wouldn't take Capello's decisions too seriously as managers can be wrong especially when it's someone who did as poorly as him for England.

Fairly certain Carrick was talked about a lot. I guess not so much in South America but in these parts he was...

[Mpache]

Just now, Stan said:

Fairly certain Carrick was talked about a lot. I guess not so much in South America but in these parts he was...

I was in Canada, which follows the PL tons.

[Michael]

5 minutes ago, Vader said:

Carrick wasn't against Kante, Viera, Redondo, Makelele or Keane though. He was against Van Bommel. I voted for Carrick because I knew how he played and knew little to nothing about Van Bommel as a player.

I also never said he was "criticized" he was just not talked about. At all, at least from my memory. I also wouldn't take Capello's decisions too seriously as managers can be wrong especially when it's someone who did as poorly as him for England.

I am not criticizing your decision of choosing Carrick over van Bommel, I am just saying that he wasn't as good as many elite midfielders of his generation.

I definitely remember on several occasions when some pundits criticized Carrick's performances. Capello may not be perfect, but as a manager he was one of the best, regardless of whether he didn't do too well as England manager. He got to see Carrick in training and in matches for months on end. Of course managers can be wrong, but they are rarely wrong when they have to choose between a world class player and an international class player(it's even debateable if Barry was international class). Surely it would be an easy pick to choose the world class player every time. 

 

[Michael]

Just now, Vader said:

I was in Canada, which follows the PL tons.

Canada the USA...that's all South America to Stan 

[Cicero]

Nah Brian holds some truth. Carrick’s been pretty underrated and his work goes unnoticed given the talent in that United team. 

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

Canada the USA...that's all South America to Stan 

It's like Egypt and Africa again  

 

[Michael]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

It's like Egypt and Africa again  

 

Except Egypt is in Africa

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Michael said:

Except Egypt is in Africa

I know, @Vader can explain the reference if he wants  

[Mpache]

5 minutes ago, Michael said:

I am not criticizing your decision of choosing Carrick over van Bommel, I am just saying that he wasn't as good as many elite midfielders of his generation.

I definitely remember on several occasions when some pundits criticized Carrick's performances. Capello may not be perfect, but as a manager he was one of the best, regardless of whether he didn't do too well as England manager. He got to see Carrick in training and in matches for months on end. Of course managers can be wrong, but they are rarely wrong when they have to choose between a world class player and an international class player(it's even debateable if Barry was international class). Surely it would be an easy pick to choose the world class player every time. 

 

Nobody is saying he's one of the best midfielders of the century. He was good for what he did though and top 8 is certainly not outrageous. I think he's warranting of that depending on who he faced. In this case, Van Bommel who I knew little about so I can't really say much in comparison.

All I know is, here in Canada he wasn't really talked about very much and he did a silent job at United. As for South America, not sure about the other 9 countries but Peru doesn't even have the rights to the PL. ESPN Argentina shows it only sometimes. People there care more about La Liga.

[Michael]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

I know, @Vader can explain the reference if he wants  

Ok, haha I must of missed that one, lol.

[RandoEFC+]

Carrick is getting rinsed here by De Rossi anyway. I think him against van Bommel could have gone either way but this is a randomly drawn knockout style competition. Marcelo got to the final of the LB bracket ahead of Ashley Cole and Lukas Podolski!

[Mpache]

Just now, Michael said:

Ok, haha I must of missed that one, lol.

I made a joke that Egypt is in Egypt, not Africa about a year or 2 ago now. They didn't accept that it was just a wind up and thought I was being serious. Ya know, same bs as always.

[Cicero]

Just now, Vader said:

I made a joke that Egypt is in Egypt, not Africa about a year or 2 ago now. They didn't accept that it was just a wind up and thought I was being serious. Ya know, same bs as always.

I believe you had a brain fart. 

Happens to all of us. 

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, Vader said:

Nobody is saying he's one of the best midfielders of the century. He was good for what he did though and top 8 is certainly not outrageous. I think he's warranting of that depending on who he faced. In this case, Van Bommel who I knew little about so I can't really say much in comparison.

All I know is, here in Canada he wasn't really talked about very much and he did a silent job at United. As for South America, not sure about the other 9 countries but Peru doesn't even have the rights to the PL. ESPN Argentina shows it only sometimes. People there care more about La Liga.

My point is that there are many other players who I'd have in the top 8 instead of him. I was brought up in England and Carrick as with most English footballers, was talked about a lot. I have watched him numerous times and my judgement comes from watching him and his influence and comparing him with other players in his position. 

He was a very good player, but was he an elite player? I don't think that he was.

 

[Mpache]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I believe you had a brain fart. 

Happens to all of us. 

Nah I rarely forget things when it comes to geography. I genuinely was taking the piss.

Found it cute that others wanted to make me out as serious. Want proof of it? Phil the other day thought my narcissist comment in the South American thread was not tongue in cheek yet defending Rando's comment. It's a joke or not when they want it to be.

Though I make mistakes as anyone else and do admit them after time. This wasn't though.

[Mpache]

Just now, Michael said:

My point is that there are many other players who I'd have in the top 8 instead of him. I was brought up in England and Carrick as with most English footballers, was talked about a lot. I have watched him numerous times and my judgement comes from watching him and his influence and comparing him with other players in his position. 

He was a very good player, but was he an elite player? I don't think that he was.

  

I'd have Peru over Croatia any day of the week. Yet in the World Cup we went out in groups and they reached the final. It happens in cup competitions. Really depends on who you draw. Brazil, Uruguay and Belgium are also better than Croatia.

Hell, I'd even say Uruguay were way better than us in the Copa America yet we knocked them out and reached the final. It happens.

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, Vader said:

I'd have Peru over Croatia any day of the week. Yet in the World Cup we went out in groups and they reached the final. It happens in cup competitions. Really depends on who you draw. Brazil, Uruguay and Belgium are also better than Croatia.

Hell, I'd even say Uruguay were way better than us in the Copa America yet we knocked them out and reached the final. It happens.

You think that the Peruvian national team are stronger than the Croatian national team? You must be avin a laugh son!

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

You think that the Peruvian national team are better than the Croatian national team? You must be avin a laugh son!

Not sure if we're better, but if you put us in a match against us I'd be confident in winning. Can't say the same about us vs Colombia or Uruguay for example.

We actually beat Croatia right before the World Cup comfortably but that was a friendly so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Michael]

9 minutes ago, Vader said:

Not sure if we're better, but if you put us in a match against us I'd be confident in winning. Can't say the same about Colombia or Uruguay for example.

We actually beat Croatia right before the World Cup comfortably but that was a friendly so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Friendlies mean nothing most of the time, I think that's obvious. Croatia are stacked with excellent players, although Peru are a decent side themselves, Croatia would beat them on most occasions in my opinion. Since Pizzaro retired, Peru have only ever had one reliable goalscorer and that's of course Paolo Guerrero. Without him they seem to struggle to score. In fact in most positions the Croatian national team trumps Peru in my view.

So I'm afraid Croatia beats Peru most times, unless you(assuming you're Peruvian) play them at high altitude in the Andes mountains and give them breathing problems.

[Mpache]

Just now, Michael said:

Friendlies mean nothing most of the time, I think that's obvious. Croatia are stacked with excellent players, although Peru are a decent side themselves, Croatia would beat them most times in my opinion. Since Pizzaro retired, Peru have only ever had one reliable goalscorer and that's of course Paolo Guerrero. Without him they seem to struggle to score. In fact in most positions the Croatian national team trumps Peru in my opinion.

So I'm afraid Croatia beats Peru most times, unless you(assuming you're Peruvian) play them at high altitude in the Andes mountains and give them breathing problems.

Croatia are stacked with excellent KNOWN players, that's the difference. They are a part of the EU, so of course they are going to have players across the best European leagues. Their talent is easier to identify and is no risk for the top clubs. That said, I'm not downgrading their talent. The likes of Modric, Mandzukic and Rakitic all have and had their place at the top European teams. If they weren't part of the EU they wouldn't have all gone to a top club, and maybe only one would have. Look at Colombia, Ukraine and Russia. At most they only ever have one or two players at a top European club. In our case, sure we don't have world class talent across the board even without the EU or not, but we are great collectively where as Croatia for me depended entirely on individuals for their World Cup success. 

Pizarro had an italian passport and in my opinion, prime Pizarro isn't better than prime Guerrero. Difference is Pizarro matured early where as Paolo matured much later on. Though we are going to decline as we don't have many number 9's coming through, you're right about that. If we ever play Croatia in a competitive match and have Gareca, it would be a 5/10 match as in they are about even with us. The same I think about Denmark, and in the World Cup we got picked to lose that time.

I got a bit dragged in though, the point I am making is that it's a cup competition. Carrick made top 8 because he wasn't facing Kante, Redondo, Makelele or any of those, so he made it through. Doesn't mean he's better than Mascherano who did get eliminated, but he wasn't matched up against them. Some teams that go through in tournaments doesn't make them "better". Croatia in 2018 wasn't better than Uruguay, Brazil or Belgium. Netherlands in 2014 wasn't better than Colombia or France and Paraguay in the 2011 Copa America was arguably worse than everyone else. Yet they made the final in a very dodgy manner. Other examples are Germany 2002 and even my beloved Peru in 2019. Personally I strongly disagree with the notion that we got lucky in the Copa America last year and I think we did deserve to make the final, but I still don't think we were better than Colombia or Uruguay and would list us as the 4th best in South America.

Basically, it depends on who you are matched up against but I can assure you if Carrick was against Makelele he wouldn't have won. Carrick was solid, but not the best CDM of the century and it's showing here. He had a silent job with Ferguson and he can certainly win some clashes against other top CDM's of the century. Van Bommel was the victim here.

[Stan]

What's this 'silent job' thing you keep mentioning?

[Mpache]

Just now, Stan said:

What's this 'silent job' thing you keep mentioning?

As in his work went unnoticed. CDM's are "silent players" as I'd like to call them, but I noticed this especially applies to Carrick.

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, Stan said:

What's this 'silent job' thing you keep mentioning?

I think it's that whole thing of the unsung midfielders that do a lot of the work that's not necessarily the most flashy, but they do the basics right 99 times out of 100.

[Michael]

23 minutes ago, Vader said:

Croatia are stacked with excellent KNOWN players, that's the difference. They are a part of the EU, so of course they are going to have players across the best European leagues. Their talent is easier to identify and is no risk for the top clubs. That said, I'm not downgrading their talent. The likes of Modric, Mandzukic and Rakitic all have and had their place at the top European teams. If they weren't part of the EU they wouldn't have all gone to a top club, and maybe only one would have. Look at Colombia, Ukraine and Russia. At most they only ever have one or two players at a top European club. In our case, sure we don't have world class talent across the board even without the EU or not, but we are great collectively where as Croatia for me depended entirely on individuals for their World Cup success. 

Pizarro had an italian passport and in my opinion, prime Pizarro isn't better than prime Guerrero. Difference is Pizarro matured early where as Paolo matured much later on. Though we are going to decline as we don't have many number 9's coming through, you're right about that. If we ever play Croatia in a competitive match and have Gareca, it would be a 5/10 match as in they are about even with us. The same I think about Denmark, and in the World Cup we got picked to lose that time.

I got a bit dragged in though, the point I am making is that it's a cup competition. Carrick made top 8 because he wasn't facing Kante, Redondo, Makelele or any of those, so he made it through. Doesn't mean he's better than Mascherano who did get eliminated, but he wasn't matched up against them. Some teams that go through in tournaments doesn't make them "better". Croatia in 2018 wasn't better than Uruguay, Brazil or Belgium. Netherlands in 2014 wasn't better than Colombia or France and Paraguay in the 2011 Copa America was arguably worse than everyone else. Yet they made the final in a very dodgy manner. Other examples are Germany 2002 and even my beloved Peru in 2019. Personally I strongly disagree with the notion that we got lucky in the Copa America last year and I think we did deserve to make the final, but I still don't think we were better than Colombia or Uruguay and would list us as the 4th best in South America.

Basically, it depends on who you are matched up against but I can assure you if Carrick was against Makelele he wouldn't have won. Carrick was solid, but not the best CDM of the century and it's showing here. He had a silent job with Ferguson and he can certainly win some clashes against other top CDM's of the century. Van Bommel was the victim here.

I think it's little to do with them being in the EU. Look at Serbia, Turkey and Bosnia(Non EU nations) as some examples, they have loads of players around Europe, with many at top clubs in top leagues. There are scouts everywhere this day and age and if there is a good talent in South America, believe you me the European clubs will know about it. Football is big business and the European clubs are always on the look out for talent, wherever it may be in the world.

I can tell you that most Russian players stay in Russia, because the Russian clubs pay good money, that's why it's only a few of their best players who play in the Western Leagues. Ukraine already has loads of players at European clubs, so you are wrong with Ukraine, a large number of their players play in the West, look it up.

I understand the knockout competition perfectly well and that teams can sometimes get an easier draw. But I beg to differ about Croatia, they had an excellent team and they deserved their place in the final. I wouldn't say that Brazil, Belgium and Uruguay were better than Croatia either, I think all those teams are at a similar standard, well at least they were at the World Cup.