Man City 3-0 Arsenal - Wednesday 17th June, 2020

[Mpache]

4 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Lorenzo Insigne 

Yeah Insigne is a great example. He's always been one of top 5 players on Napoli but there's always someone better. Hamsik, Mertens and Koulibaly.

[Spike]

8 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Never has been, never will be the best defender on the planet mate. He's never been the best defender in England for a start.

Did you read the second half of the post?

[Dr. Gonzo]

28 minutes ago, Spike said:

Not buying this idea that David Luiz is simply lucky. He is simuetaneously the best and worst defender on the planet.

He's really good going forward and really awful defensively. Weirdly plays well as a DM or as part of a 3 man defense, but he's pretty awful as a traditional CB. I don't think I've ever once thought he's up there as the best defender in the world ever, tbh. There have been times I thought he's pretty good and there have been other times where I thought he's been an absolute clown with how shit he is. He's also come up with big goals in his time at these big clubs. I just don't think he's anywhere near as good as his career would have you think if you just look where he's played on Wikipedia.

He's not even the worst defender at Arsenal, imo, Sokratis is appalling... but he's certainly the exact sort of wrong signing that a club like Arsenal needed for stability at the back. Makes Unai Emery look even worse when you consider how Arsenal didn't really improve in their first season under him, then he spent big and Arsenal somehow got even worse.

I almost feel bad for Mikel Arteta, because this job he's got on his hands is absolutely massive and it's his first job in management. I think it'd be a big ask for even a very experienced and proven manager, to get Arsenal to where they want to be and quickly.

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He's really good going forward and really awful defensively. Weirdly plays well as a DM or as part of a 3 man defense, but he's pretty awful as a traditional CB. I don't think I've ever once thought he's up there as the best defender in the world ever, tbh. There have been times I thought he's pretty good and there have been other times where I thought he's been an absolute clown with how shit he is. He's also come up with big goals in his time at these big clubs. I just don't think he's anywhere near as good as his career would have you think if you just look where he's played on Wikipedia.

He's not even the worst defender at Arsenal, imo, Sokratis is appalling... but he's certainly the exact sort of wrong signing that a club like Arsenal needed for stability at the back. Makes Unai Emery look even worse when you consider how Arsenal didn't really improve in their first season under him, then he spent big and Arsenal somehow got even worse.

I almost feel bad for Mikel Arteta, because this job he's got on his hands is absolutely massive and it's his first job in management. I think it'd be a big ask for even a very experienced and proven manager, to get Arsenal to where they want to be and quickly.

Just an assumption, but I've probably watched a bit more of Luiz than you (could be 100% wrong though, just thinking that I've watched more Chelsea than you). When he is on, he is one, a fucking wall both directions, but that is very rare hence why I say he 'both the best and worst'. Also he never played well as DM, in fact he was several times worse as a DM because that restricts the space he gets at CB for those runs and passes he makes. The midfield pressing he'd receive as a DM only exposed his weak concentration and decision making.

In fact, I'd say whateve praise Leonardo Bonucci gets, David Luiz deserves as well, and whatever criticisms Luiz gets Bonucci deserves. Leo Bonucci is fucking awful in a 2 man defence, and got to wank the ball around because Chielini and Barzagli were two of the best in the world in a footballing culture that loves a deep defence.

[Mpache]

Just now, Spike said:

In fact, I'd say whateve praise Leonardo Bonucci gets, David Luiz deserves as well, and whatever criticisms Luiz gets Bonucci deserves. Leo Bonucci is fucking awful in a 2 man defence, and got to wank the ball around because Chielini and Barzagli were two of the best in the world in a footballing culture that loves a deep defence.

Disagree. I will change your sentence to "Diego Godin" who isn't good in a 3 man defence but is excellent with 4 at the back.

Bonucci played in a back 4 in 2016-17 and he was comfortably one of the best players in Europe.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Spike said:

Just an assumption, but I've probably watched a bit more of Luiz than you (could be 100% wrong though, just thinking that I've watched more Chelsea than you). When he is on, he is one, a fucking wall both directions, but that is very rare hence why I say he 'both the best and worst'. Also he never played well as DM, in fact he was several times worse as a DM because that restricts the space he gets at CB for those runs and passes he makes. 

In fact, I'd say whateve praise Leonardo Bonucci gets, David Luiz deserves as well, and whatever criticisms Luiz gets Bonucci deserves. Leo Bonucci is fucking awful in a 2 man defence, and got to wank the ball around because Chielini and Barzagli were two of the best in the world in a footballing culture that loves a deep defence.

Yeah you're probably right that you've watched more Chelsea than I have. I do remember him playing as a DM (once) and as a RB (also once) playing against us with Benfica, I think. I thought he was particularly good at RB but I don't think I've ever seen him play there after us. But those performances against us with Benfica were, imo, probably some of the best performances I've ever seen from him.

Tbf, I also think Bonucci is tremendously overrated, so I'm inclined to agree with you.

[Spike]

Just now, Inti Brian said:

Disagree. I will change your sentence to "Diego Godin" who isn't good in a 3 man defence but is excellent with 4 at the back.

Bonucci played in a back 4 in 2016-17 and he was comfortably one of the best players in Europe.

Then the next season he was the worst AC Milan player on a miserable team, a player that let in soft goals, got megged, and scored own goals. Funny that maybe, he wasn't great at all and maybe his partner was the reason he played well?

There is a reason why silly mistakes and lapses in concentration are called 'Bonucciate' in Italy.

[Spike]

@Inti Brian Juventus mainly played 3 at the back during the 16-17 season if I recall correctly

[Mpache]

Just now, Spike said:

Then the next season he was the worst AC Milan player on a miserable team, a player that let in soft goals, got megged, and scored own goals. Funny that maybe, he wasn't great at all and maybe his partner was the reason he played well?

There is a reason why silly mistakes and lapses in concentration are called 'Bonucciate' in Italy.

I'm aware that Bonucci was trash at Milan. I was able to witness it.

Juventus played a back 4 in the Champions League in 2016-17 and Bonucci was the hail mary. If you look back at my older posts, you'll even see I called him to be nominated for the top 3 of the Ballon D'or.

In Serie A I believe they stuck to the back 3 but I thought he was particularly good in European competitions. 

[Mpache]

Just now, Spike said:

@Inti Brian Juventus mainly played 3 at the back during the 16-17 season if I recall correctly

They did, but in the Champions League they switched to a back 4 around the quarter finals I think.

[Spike]

Just now, Inti Brian said:

I'm aware that Bonucci was trash at Milan. I was able to witness it.

Juventus played a back 4 in the Champions League in 2016-17 and Bonucci was the hail mary. If you look back at my older posts, you'll even see I called him to be nominated for the top 3 of the Ballon D'or.

In Serie A I believe they stuck to the back 3 but I thought he was particularly good in European competitions. 

Incorrect, they played 3 at the back in the CL.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2019640--juventus-vs-monaco/?referrer=%2Fuefachampionsleague%2Fseason%3D2017%2Fmatches%2Fround%3D2000786%2Fmatch%3D2019640%2Findex

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2019641--juventus-vs-real-madrid/?referrer=%2fuefachampionsleague%2fseason%3d2017%2fmatches%2fround%3d2000787%2fmatch%3d2019641%2findex

[Mpache]

Looks like my memory isn't short. They DID play a back 4 in the Champions League.

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, Inti Brian said:

Looks like my memory isn't short. They DID play a back 4 in the Champions League.

That is 2017-2018

 

edit: nevermind, I got my seasons mixed up for that game.

[Mpache]

Just now, Spike said:

That is 17-18

It's not.

https://int.soccerway.com/matches/2017/04/11/europe/uefa-champions-league/juventus-fc/futbol-club-barcelona/2428330/

And regarding your example above, it's true that Allegri hated straying away from a back 3. However, the times he did play a back 4, Bonucci was just as good there as he was in a line of 3. Bonucci was the best player on that team, bar none and is the reason Juve were able to go so far.

Bonucci is more a Pique than a David Luiz. He's never horrible (except that stint at Milan) but he has his monumental seasons and others were he is just another defender. Not bad, but definitely not fantastic. Luiz was only good at Chelsea when it came to the top 5 leagues under Conte, so it's not really comparable. 

Bonucci was good in the 2 CL winning seasons, the unbeaten season and Pique was good in his early Barca days as well as 2014/15 where he was the best CB in the world that year.

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Inti Brian said:

Bonucci was good in the 2 CL winning seasons,

CL winning?

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Inti Brian said:

It's not.

https://int.soccerway.com/matches/2017/04/11/europe/uefa-champions-league/juventus-fc/futbol-club-barcelona/2428330/

And regarding your example above, it's true that Allegri hated straying away from a back 3. However, the times he did play a back 4, Bonucci was just as good there as he was in a line of 3. Bonucci was the best player on that team, bar none and is the reason Juve were able to go so far.

Bonucci is more a Pique than a David Luiz. He's never horrible (except that stint at Milan) but he has his monumental seasons and others were he is just another defender. Not bad, but definitely not fantastic. Luiz was only good at Chelsea when it came to the top 5 leagues under Conte, so it's not really comparable. 

Bonucci was good in the 2 CL winning seasons, the unbeaten season and Pique was good in his early Barca days as well as 2014/15 where he was the best CB in the world that year.

They never won the CL. In fact he got rinsed in both finals, one with a back four.

[Mpache]

Just now, Spike said:

They never won the CL. In fact he got rinsed in both finals, one with a back four.

Ah, typo. The two final runs*

I wouldn't say he got rinsed against Barcelona. He did what he could and Juve gave it a go in that game. He was just up against the best forward line in football history. Not easy.

And on Real Madrid, to be honest Juve wouldn't have been there if it weren't for him. Chiellini was also good but the star was Leonardo in my opinion. 

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Inti Brian said:

Ah, typo. The two final runs*

I wouldn't say he got rinsed against Barcelona. He did what he could and Juve gave it a go in that game. He was just up against the best forward line in football history. Not easy.

And on Real Madrid, to be honest Juve wouldn't have been there if it weren't for him. Chiellini was also good but the star was Leonardo in my opinion. 

In my opinion a balon d'or candidate defender doesn't get scored on 7 times in two finals, just like how a balon d'or winning forward wouldn't miss 7 chances in two finals. Can't be top three if there are three better forwards than he is a defender.

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

In my opinion a balon d'or candidate defender doesn't get scored on 7 times in two finals, just like how a balon d'or winning forward wouldn't miss 7 chances in two finals. Can't be top three if there are three better forwards than he is a defender.

I said he deserved the nomination in 2016-17. In 2014-15, Tevez was Juve's best player.

That year was very similar to Pique in 2014-15 actually, who was also the best defender of that season. 

In the end, I saw your point. David Luiz has the capabilities as he has shown, but he's got no concentration at all and that's such an important asset in football. More than marking, more than tackling. It can really be your end. Another victim to this is Lovren, who is also technically sound but doesn't stay focused.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Inti Brian said:

I said he deserved the nomination in 2016-17. In 2014-15, Tevez was Juve's best player.

That year was very similar to Pique in 2014-15 actually, who was also the best defender of that season. 

In the end, I saw your point. David Luiz has the capabilities as he has shown, but he's got no concentration at all and that's such an important asset in football. More than marking, more than tackling. It can really be your end. Another victim to this is Lovren, who is also technically sound but doesn't stay focused.

Well he still got smacked in 2017, by Asensio no less. We just have to agree to disagree about Bonucci then. No doubt he has quality but not too better than Luiz for me.

[Cicero]

Agent Willian getting on a chartered flight to the Emirates as we speak. 

[Chaaay AFC]

So many underlying issues at the club, Arteta has been okay but his start at the club has been overrated. So many weird team selections and his In-Game changes have been very poor. I'm willing to give him time obviously, he has an absolute shit show of a squad which has been evident for this past year or so now. 

Recruitment has been our biggest downfall, not cashing in on anyone and the players who we have brought just haven't been that great. This include both Wenger and Gazidis' and the new regimes. So much shit has to be siphoned through still and some of the wages we are paying are going to make that so very difficult. 

Serious work needs to be done on the defence, but I actually think our midfield is just as bad. Guendouzi and Willock are decent talent but they are at least a year or two away from being consistent starters. The rest all flatter to decieve and the biggest issue is still Ozil. 

I know a lot of people still like him but we won't move forward until he has gone, another year of him is hard to swallow considering the issues we have. Aubameyang has a year left and for him to even think about staying he would want something similar and arguably rightly so. The wage is just unsustainable for us as a club, it's obviously not his fault he was offered that deal but it's completely handicapping us. A lot of talk as well this week that he was dropped for disciplinary issues again against City. It's all well and good making Emery look the bad guy but it won't work with Arteta. 

All in all I think we may have to swallow our pride next season and at least start to try and build up again. Get rid of many of the shit ones as possible and try and get some good, young, hungry players in. 

[Panna King]

3 hours ago, Chaaay AFC said:

So many underlying issues at the club, Arteta has been okay but his start at the club has been overrated. So many weird team selections and his In-Game changes have been very poor. I'm willing to give him time obviously, he has an absolute shit show of a squad which has been evident for this past year or so now. 

Recruitment has been our biggest downfall, not cashing in on anyone and the players who we have brought just haven't been that great. This include both Wenger and Gazidis' and the new regimes. So much shit has to be siphoned through still and some of the wages we are paying are going to make that so very difficult. 

Serious work needs to be done on the defence, but I actually think our midfield is just as bad. Guendouzi and Willock are decent talent but they are at least a year or two away from being consistent starters. The rest all flatter to decieve and the biggest issue is still Ozil. 

I know a lot of people still like him but we won't move forward until he has gone, another year of him is hard to swallow considering the issues we have. Aubameyang has a year left and for him to even think about staying he would want something similar and arguably rightly so. The wage is just unsustainable for us as a club, it's obviously not his fault he was offered that deal but it's completely handicapping us. A lot of talk as well this week that he was dropped for disciplinary issues again against City. It's all well and good making Emery look the bad guy but it won't work with Arteta. 

All in all I think we may have to swallow our pride next season and at least start to try and build up again. Get rid of many of the shit ones as possible and try and get some good, young, hungry players in. 

I cannot see our recruitment improving one bit with Edu and Raul Sanllehi,  ok Martinelli has looked like a good signing but the rest of the signings are like a car crash.  Luiz 8 million for 1 year, Cedric 5 million for a few months, Ceballos 16 million loan fee with no clause to sign and then you have Pepe who will cost 75 million.  How on earth is Sanllehi in that position making these signings, it was already alarm bells at Barcelona when he was behind the deal that bought Dembele to Barcelona for 135 million! no wonder why Barcelona got rid of him.      

 

Arteta is still a novice and has no experience to build a team at this level, if the club are relying on those 2 idiots to sign players then there is no hope.