Argentina

[Spike]

20 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

One factor that would have to be included is the population size,  smaller populations are easier to maintain over larger increasing populations,  when the population outgrows the tax pool you are likely to see some more expensive premiums placed on limited duration products.   I don't agree with it, much like I don't agree that there should ever be an overlap between government and private sector,  the government should regulate it and the private sector should be constrained by legislation,  similarly there must be laws prohibiting government officials from owning stakes in private institutions or having personal withing them. 

The tax pool scales with the population. It’s always the same ratio.

[Rucksackfranzose]

5 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Good ol pharmaceutical and government,  proving the point that when government control a necessity it is often not going to end well.   I stand to be corrected but I am sure in those other countries the pharmaceutical industry or medical aid is very privatised,  here in South Africa it is, except for when COVID was a cash cow. 

Than you're sure of something wrong UK has National Health Service and Germany has an obligatory public health insurance system. Oops

Edited November 30, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[Goku de la Boca]

Economic shock going on in Argentina, something that we Peruvians have lived through in the early 90's with Fujimori, something which fixed the economy here and remained stable ever since. Argentinians out in protest, obviously those in CABA that do not understand what is happening.

I have faith in Milei, if all goes right this could change the face of the country for the future.

[Spike]

Argentina is fucked lmao imagine voting for a Libertarian, about 1% of the population is gonna get filthy rich and the rest are going to have to save up for the monthly subscriptions for water and oxygen.

Haha, what a joke ‘you can do whatever you like except what we don’t like you doing’. 

Fuck Milei and his supporters, they are gonna get exactly what they deserve. 

[Spike]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/21/argentina-new-leader-extreme-abortion-gay-rights-javier-milei

Milei is a snake-oil salesman who is promising to stare down inflation with drastic libertarian measures. Members of his party have already said they expect their drastic policies will result in massive protests. They have also said they will call in the armed forces if necessary to restore “order” – always that word. I’m confident that our democratic interlude will extend past 1983-2023, but it’s likely to take one hell of a beating during Milei’s presidency.

[Beelzebub]

I think I saw @Berserker in one of the protests. 

[Goku de la Boca]

12 hours ago, Spike said:

Argentina is fucked lmao imagine voting for a Libertarian, about 1% of the population is gonna get filthy rich and the rest are going to have to save up for the monthly subscriptions for water and oxygen.

Haha, what a joke ‘you can do whatever you like except what we don’t like you doing’. 

Fuck Milei and his supporters, they are gonna get exactly what they deserve. 

What is happening in Argentina has happened in Peru with Fujimori and Fujishock. He had his own crimes which he was punished rightfully for, but he also saved Peru for the rest of time. Sure there is a divided population but most people here have a shot at succeeding in life and the currency has been the third strongest in the America’s for almost 2 decades. It will take time and pain but sadly that is Argentina’s only way out. 
 

[Goku de la Boca]

12 hours ago, Spike said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/21/argentina-new-leader-extreme-abortion-gay-rights-javier-milei

Milei is a snake-oil salesman who is promising to stare down inflation with drastic libertarian measures. Members of his party have already said they expect their drastic policies will result in massive protests. They have also said they will call in the armed forces if necessary to restore “order” – always that word. I’m confident that our democratic interlude will extend past 1983-2023, but it’s likely to take one hell of a beating during Milei’s presidency.

Again I come from a country where this has happened and it DID work. I’m not at all shocked most people from abroad do not understand what the measures are aiming to succeed, but as someone who has parents who lived through it as well as the terrorist years, I am behind it.

[Spike]

3 hours ago, Goku de la Boca said:

What is happening in Argentina has happened in Peru with Fujimori and Fujishock. He had his own crimes which he was punished rightfully for, but he also saved Peru for the rest of time. Sure there is a divided population but most people here have a shot at succeeding in life and the currency has been the third strongest in the America’s for almost 2 decades. It will take time and pain but sadly that is Argentina’s only way out. 
 

A tumour isn’t removed by shooting it with a gun. How many people have already lost their jobs under this guy? That isn’t helping poverty or the economy. Not only is this guy banning abortion which is an attack on women, especially poor women, he wants to remove all government programs which includes bloody education! It’s not about being foreign or not it’s about seeing the tell take signs of a fascist, which Milei definitely displays in short bursts. Apologetic for the military junta, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, pro-private sector, pro-military. Just because the previous governments were incompetent isn’t a justification for what Milei is and what he wants. Argentina has bought into something they can’t afford. 
 

[Goku de la Boca]

22 minutes ago, Spike said:

A tumour isn’t removed by shooting it with a gun. How many people have already lost their jobs under this guy? That isn’t helping poverty or the economy. Not only is this guy banning abortion which is an attack on women, especially poor women, he wants to remove all government programs which includes bloody education! It’s not about being foreign or not it’s about seeing the tell take signs of a fascist, which Milei definitely displays in short bursts. Apologetic for the military junta, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, pro-private sector, pro-military. Just because the previous governments were incompetent isn’t a justification for what Milei is and what he wants. Argentina has bought into something they can’t afford. 
 

Mate, most of the people who lost their jobs did fuck all. They got paid to just slack off.

I’m biased because my parents have lived through something similar here and all I know is it shaped Peru into one of the most financially stable countries in the America’s.

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Mate, most of the people who lost their jobs did fuck all. They got paid to just slack off.

I’m biased because my parents have lived through something similar here and all I know is it shaped Peru into one of the most financially stable countries in the America’s.

I’m not sure ending certain rights for women, denying gay people the ability to get married, or ending prosecution against a military junta have anything to do with economics tbh.

Actually, denying abortion rights basically always hurts the poor the most. People who can afford to go elsewhere for abortion procedures can and will go get them.

[Spike]

5 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Mate, most of the people who lost their jobs did fuck all. They got paid to just slack off.

I’m biased because my parents have lived through something similar here and all I know is it shaped Peru into one of the most financially stable countries in the America’s.

Now they don’t get paid. Starving to death because the president knocked the food from your hands isn’t leadership, it isn’t helping the people, it’s colluding with the private sector for governmental support. The new excess in workforce will force earnings down in an already massive inflated economy. 

I’ve read about Fujinomics and I can’t say I’m impressed. Stability? Yeah that’s nice it really is, but Peru paid way to much for stability, one of the most corrupt governments in history embezzling billions, and the complete privatisation of Peru’s mineral wealth to be extracted by foreign multinationals. Peru was sold 24k karats of gold, got 12 and is thankful for it. He got poverty down to 40% but probably could have made it 0% if he weren’t so corrupt.

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’m not sure ending certain rights for women, denying gay people the ability to get married, or ending prosecution against a military junta have anything to do with economics tbh.

Actually, denying abortion rights basically always hurts the poor the most. People who can afford to go elsewhere for abortion procedures can and will go get them.

Don’t forget the new mobilisation of police to stop protests

[Goku de la Boca]

10 minutes ago, Spike said:

Now they don’t get paid. Starving to death because the president knocked the food from your hands isn’t leadership, it isn’t helping the people, it’s colluding with the private sector for governmental support. The new excess in workforce will force earnings down in an already massive inflated economy. 

I’ve read about Fujinomics and I can’t say I’m impressed. Stability? Yeah that’s nice it really is, but Peru paid way to much for stability, one of the most corrupt governments in history embezzling billions, and the complete privatisation of Peru’s mineral wealth to be extracted by foreign multinationals. Peru was sold 24k karats of gold, got 12 and is thankful for it. He got poverty down to 40% but probably could have made it 0% if he weren’t so corrupt.

Fujimori got punished for his crimes, in the same way Bukele might in a few years, but the ends justify the means. Bukele made El Salvador a much safer country and revived the tourism industry. Fujimori implemented the constitution that remains to this day which doesn’t let any new president try something crazy, and while our currency is by no means amazing, it’s still the third strongest in the America’s after Canada and USA. Everyone here says they are poor yet they all own cell phones, some middle class own cars, they can eat every day, and Lima is a functioning city with some water issues in the bad districts but it’s been that way for the past 3 decades.

I cannot say the same about Argentina. Generalized observation but every Argentine I talk to always blacks out for a couple days, loses signal and of course there is 38%+ poverty. They make fun of us for having ugly cities yet every immigrant in SA always come here or to Chile, and there’s a reason for it. The president instability is never anything more than fearmongering.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Fujimori got punished for his crimes, in the same way Bukele might in a few years, but the ends justify the means. Bukele made El Salvador a much safer country and revived the tourism industry. Fujimori implemented the constitution that remains to this day which doesn’t let any new president try something crazy, and while our currency is by no means amazing, it’s still the third strongest in the America’s after Canada and USA. Everyone here says they are poor yet they all own cell phones, some middle class own cars, they can eat every day, and Lima is a functioning city with some water issues in the bad districts but it’s been that way for the past 3 decades.

I cannot say the same about Argentina. Generalized observation but every Argentine I talk to always blacks out for a couple days, loses signal and of course there is 38%+ poverty. They make fun of us for having ugly cities yet every immigrant in SA always come here or to Chile, and there’s a reason for it. The president instability is never anything more than fearmongering.

So Argentina deserves a rollback of human rights because their economy is shit?

[Goku de la Boca]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So Argentina deserves a rollback of human rights because their economy is shit?

I very obviously do not agree with his anti human-rights agenda, but sadly it was either that or 40% of the population continue to live in extreme poverty with a currency that is worth fuck all.

I think it was clear they were willing to take the risk.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Fujimori got punished for his crimes, in the same way Bukele might in a few years, but the ends justify the means. Bukele made El Salvador a much safer country and revived the tourism industry. Fujimori implemented the constitution that remains to this day which doesn’t let any new president try something crazy, and while our currency is by no means amazing, it’s still the third strongest in the America’s after Canada and USA. Everyone here says they are poor yet they all own cell phones, some middle class own cars, they can eat every day, and Lima is a functioning city with some water issues in the bad districts but it’s been that way for the past 3 decades.

I cannot say the same about Argentina. Generalized observation but every Argentine I talk to always blacks out for a couple days, loses signal and of course there is 38%+ poverty. They make fun of us for having ugly cities yet every immigrant in SA always come here or to Chile, and there’s a reason for it. The president instability is never anything more than fearmongering.

Look I don’t disagree that Peru is better than what it was under Garcia but my point isn’t that it has improved or not it is that Peru should be in an even better state than it is. Fujimori is able to get away with massive theft against the Peruvian people because the scraps that were afforded were better than Garcia’s. Mate it is not okay that Fujimori embezzled, it is not okay that trillions of mineral wealth were taken by foreign multinats, it doesn’t matter that he served time, that won’t change how Fujinomics will shape future Peruvian generations. Losing all that wealth for stability will only harm Peru in the future. Imagine if even 10% of the mining was taxed, how much more money Peru would have over a decade. 

Argentina is in bad shape, and the shape has gotten worse since Milei came in. I really don’t think the sheer desperation of the Argentine people means they deserve a crypto-fascist, they don’t. If Argentina comes out the other side in good shape  excellent but to me I just don’t think someone with his nonsensical economic and social views can save that country. The cognitive dissonance is too strong,
‘I believe in total freedom, but don’t protest or I will send in the cops’
‘You’re body is your right,  unless you are a woman’

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So Argentina deserves a rollback of human rights because their economy is shit?

What is his economic plan besides firing a lot of people and privatising industry? Argentina’s economy has already been decidedly worse since he took over, record inflation under Milei already.

[Goku de la Boca]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

Look I don’t disagree that Peru is better than what it was under Garcia but my point isn’t that it has improved or not it is that Peru should be in an even better state than it is. Fujimori is able to get away with massive theft against the Peruvian people because the scraps that were afforded were better than Garcia’s. Mate it is not okay that Fujimori embezzled, it is not okay that trillions of mineral wealth were taken by foreign multinats, it doesn’t matter that he served time, that won’t change how Fujinomics will shape future Peruvian generations. Losing all that wealth for stability will only harm Peru in the future. Imagine if even 10% of the mining was taxed, how much more money Peru would have over a decade. 

Argentina is in bad shape, and the shape has gotten worse since Milei came in. I really don’t think the sheer desperation of the Argentine people means they deserve a crypto-fascist, they don’t. If Argentina comes out the other side in good shape  excellent but to me I just don’t think someone with his nonsensical economic and social views can save that country. The cognitive dissonance is too strong,
‘I believe in total freedom, but don’t protest or I will send in the cops’
‘You’re body is your right,  unless you are a woman’

The thing is, Fujimori had a very strong start to his reign over the country. He was voted in a second term because he was as popular as Bukele is in El Salvador. Under him the terrorism that plagued Peru for almost a decade went away, the country improved economically, the infrastructure improved and it set us up for the next 30 years. My dad has told me horrible stories about pre-Fujimori Peru (and he's by no means a Fujimorista but pre-1990 it was a horrible place to live, he even moved to Apartheid South Africa in the 70's.) His second term was pretty bad and he committed a lot more crimes than he did first term (which already had crimes that were more under the map). 

There is one thing I can see happening in Argentina for the worse, division. That happened to us with Fujimori. It divided the country greatly, and yes the rich do get more out of this, but truth is the poverty rates in Peru are much lower than one would imagine. You think Argentina vs Peru that Argentina is the richer country but it really isn't like that at all. Chile has on the other hand gotten a strong reputation though.

Like I said I am biased because my parents have lived through this exact situation over here, but it did work economically and the country remains functional to this day. I live here, I have friends in the worst districts in Lima and they tell me the worst thing that happens to them is the water sometimes cuts at 11 PM. I am not counting myself because I live in a good district. In Argentina I hear much worse stories in CABA and not to mention the cities down south.

And trust me I know I sound like it but I am not a Fujimorista, I can just acknowledge his first term was the best this country has seen in 100 years, but sadly his crimes aren't down to solely him. Peru is doomed from the start and no president in the past 40 years has done anything different. Hence why they are all dead or in jail now.

Argentina was not doomed from the start, but they have made nothing but wrong decisions since the 70's and that's why they are willing to take drastic measures to try and change things.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Goku de la Boca

[Goku de la Boca]

I'm going to sleep @Spike as I've had a long flight today, but instead of Fujimori have a read at Julio Velarde. He's the guy who is mostly keeping the Peruvian Nuevo Sol in a good state.

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

I very obviously do not agree with his anti human-rights agenda, but sadly it was either that or 40% of the population continue to live in extreme poverty with a currency that is worth fuck all.

I think it was clear they were willing to take the risk.

How was the rollback of human rights necessary?

I think most libertarians are mental far right weirdos, but one draw they have is they talk about individual liberty a lot. These actions are very much against individual liberty…

… well other than the liberty to commit human rights offenses as part of Argentina’s military dictatorship. He seems to think that was alright.

It seems like he’s an extremist, even by the standards of libertarians (who themselves are extremists).

In a democracy, you get the government you deserve. So best of luck to them, but I’m not going to have any sympathy if this ends badly.

[Dr. Gonzo]

16 minutes ago, Spike said:

What is his economic plan besides firing a lot of people and privatising industry? Argentina’s economy has already been decidedly worse since he took over, record inflation under Milei already.

He’s a libertarian so his economic plan is going to be privatisation and deregulation.

Some very rich people will get very rich, but I suspect poverty in Argentina’s going to be abysmal. And worker regulations being rolled back is never a good thing for the working class.

Most worker regulations are written in blood.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How was the rollback of human rights necessary?

I think most libertarians are mental far right weirdos, but one draw they have is they talk about individual liberty a lot. These actions are very much against individual liberty…

… well other than the liberty to commit human rights offenses as part of Argentina’s military dictatorship. He seems to think that was alright.

It seems like he’s an extremist, even by the standards of libertarians (who themselves are extremists).

In a democracy, you get the government you deserve. So best of luck to them, but I’m not going to have any sympathy if this ends badly.

Mate Libertarians do nothing but commit crimes against other’s liberty, it’s the fundamental flaw in their ideology. Libertarianism instantly collapses when it is juxtaposed to another Libertarian.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He’s a libertarian so his economic plan is going to be privatisation and deregulation.

Some very rich people will get very rich, but I suspect poverty in Argentina’s going to be abysmal. And worker regulations being rolled back is never a good thing for the working class.

Most worker regulations are written in blood.

Poverty in Argentina has already increased because he fired like 30% of government workers and rolled back social programs.

[Goku de la Boca]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How was the rollback of human rights necessary?

I think most libertarians are mental far right weirdos, but one draw they have is they talk about individual liberty a lot. These actions are very much against individual liberty…

… well other than the liberty to commit human rights offenses as part of Argentina’s military dictatorship. He seems to think that was alright.

It seems like he’s an extremist, even by the standards of libertarians (who themselves are extremists).

In a democracy, you get the government you deserve. So best of luck to them, but I’m not going to have any sympathy if this ends badly.

You’ve missed my point. It very clearly isn’t necessary but it came with the candidate. It was either that or more years of Peronismo. That’s what most South American run-off elections end up like sadly.