Danny 2,206 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Rick said: From the get go, he didn’t have them under control. Weak management that was. Couldn’t inspire them to work together to achieve the top goals. Regardless of their ego’s that goes against him big time. Its pretty well documented that those 3 were the issue regardless of coach in charge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, Danny said: Then the issue is consistency, but its factually offside If that’s applied consistently, I think 80+% of set piece goals wouldn’t count Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,267 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) It's 100% offsides. Funny thing is the exact same type of goal was denied 2 years ago when James was obstructed by a Liverpool player that was offsides. In the ELC final. Edited February 26 by Cicero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,206 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Nah, when people use the argument “lots of managers need time, look at Klopp and look at Pep” it ignores things like Klopp immediately turning our performances around and getting to 2 finals despite the dogshit form Rodgers had us in for half a season & Pep implementing his style at a club and needing to get players that actually fit in with that style. Poch got to a final, but Chelsea’s performances have been pretty unconvincing all season. There’s no clear improvement of any Chelsea players, it just looks like Gallagher, Gusto, and Palmer are better than their teammates by some distance. And he couldn’t even build a convincing looking attack with Messi, Mbappe & Neymar. To me it looks as though a patch at Spurs where he really got the most out of Kane and Son until his tactics got figured out might actually be the peak of his management abilities. If results were bad but performances were good, I think it would be a different story. You could say he’s building something and Chelsea need to re-learn how to be patient with a manager after decades of short term success. He’s probably not helped by the club signing players for him and the club seemingly just signing players because they’re highly rated rather than because they’ve been identified as a good fit… but lots of managers have no real say in signings at all in Europe and it’s not as though Chelsea are signing players that are genuinely shite. For me, he’s someone like Rodgers. He’s good, up to a point. But even then, Rodgers couldn’t even truly fuck up having genuine world class talents in Suarez & Gerrard, until he lost Suarez and put Gerrard in the wrong position for having no legs left. And he managed to do pretty decently at Leicester after his purple patch with us, unlike Poch with his purple patch with Kane. Pretty disingenuous to compare the mass upheaval thats happened at Chelsea to City pre-planning the club’s structure to suit Pep and Liverpool’s successful analytical model merging perfectly with Klopp. You got a sentence through your Klopp argument before realising Poch just took Chelsea to a Cup final in his first season lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 33 minutes ago, Cicero said: Thought he would've adapted or improved from his time off of football, but he is still the same reactive, conceding, and tactically poor manager that he always was. Was giving him the benefit of the doubt with his history of developing young players, but 8 months in the only one he's "improved" is a technically average Conor Gallagher who he's seemingly built the entire team around. No surprise the best chances came to Gallagher who fluffed them. There is a decent squad in this team, maybe missing 2-3 senior/established players and finishers. Lol do Chelsea fans hate Gallagher now? He’s one of the 3 Chelsea players I think actually shows some quality - would be funny if he’s forced out next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,206 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: If that’s applied consistently, I think 80+% of set piece goals wouldn’t count No coaches would just change their approach to keep their players onside lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Just now, Danny said: Pretty disingenuous to compare the mass upheaval thats happened at Chelsea to City pre-planning the club’s structure to suit Pep and Liverpool’s successful analytical model merging perfectly with Klopp. You got a sentence through your Klopp argument before realising Poch just took Chelsea to a Cup final in his first season lol. Klopp turned us around after Rodgers lost the plot almost immediately. Poch is basically just Lampard with more excuses & less “no but seriously” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, Danny said: No coaches would just change their approach to keep their players onside lol Yeah but they don’t though because the refs didn’t have to dissect every decision with VAR, which is also not why VAR was introduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,267 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Just now, Dr. Gonzo said: Lol do Chelsea fans hate Gallagher now? He’s one of the 3 Chelsea players I think actually shows some quality - would be funny if he’s forced out next The "hate" is towards a manager who has taken a player that has average technical ability and made him the mainstay of the team and undroppable. I don't blame Gallagher as he is who he is. Gallagher however isn't making his case as to why he deservers his alleged £150kpw contract extension. Needed to put those away yesterday. Needed to. A more technical player dinks Kehller or rounds him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, Cicero said: The "hate" is towards a manager who has taken a player that has average technical ability and made him the mainstay of the team and undroppable. I don't blame Gallagher as he is who he is. Gallagher however isn't making his case as to why he deservers his alleged £150kpw contract extension. Needed to put those away yesterday. Needed to. A more technical player dinks Kehller or rounds him. I think Gallagher’s made himself undroppable by actually having a work ethic and being able to read the game better than the expensive signings he’s paired with. He fluffed his chances, but I don’t think he’s the problem with the Chelsea midfield. Enzo is the biggest problem. He’s clearly got quality but his work rate is dogshit and he has far too few good performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,267 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: I think Gallagher’s made himself undroppable by actually having a work ethic and being able to read the game better than the expensive signings he’s paired with. He fluffed his chances, but I don’t think he’s the problem with the Chelsea midfield. Enzo is the biggest problem. He’s clearly got quality but his work rate is dogshit and he has far too few good performances. I just don't buy that. At all. Brighton fans will tell you Caicedo was 2x the player MacAllister was and the latter is looking unbeatable under Klopp. Ran circles around Caicedo who's looked average since he's come here. Enzo is the most technically gifted player we have on the ball and he's being asked to be a box to box midfielder, running up and down the pitch vs someone who controls the tempo of the game. Something he does/did for Argentina and Benfica. From watching our midfield this entire season its clear that these players are mis profiled and mismanaged by a man who favors runners and chaotic scrap football. Which is no surprise why Gallagher is the only one benefiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Just now, Cicero said: I just don't buy that. At all. Brighton fans will tell you Caicedo was 2x the player MacAllister was and the latter is looking unbeatable under Klopp. Ran circles around Caicedo who's looked average since he's come here. Enzo is the most technically gifted player we have on the ball and he's being asked to be a box to box midfielder, running up and down the pitch vs someone who controls the tempo of the game. Something he does/did for Argentina and Benfica. From watching our midfield this entire season its clear that these players are mis profiled and mismanaged by a man who favors runners and chaotic scrap football. Which is no surprise why Gallagher is the only one benefiting. I’ve only talked to one Brighton fan regarding those transfers but they said Mac Allister was the real star of their midfield. And let’s also not forget once Mac Allister came into the Argentina midfield as a starter, that’s really when Enzo started to shine in that World Cup. And also let’s not forget that international football is very different to club level football. We’re just lucky he had a low release clause. Not to say Caicedo is bad or that he can’t turn it around - on paper he’s got all the attributes to be a top box to box midfielder. And he’s shown he can do that in this league. But he’s had some rubbish performances where he’s not put in the sort of shift required. I think Enzo made a massive mistake leaving Benfica too early when he could have been developing as the focal point of that side. That he’s being asked to do more off the ball isn’t surprising when he’s in a bigger league. Especially in a match like this final when even with all the injuries - our midfield is a good midfield. Endo, who cost just a fraction of both men absolutely dominated the two of them. Showing more work rate and quality than both. The midfield’s the engine room and heartbeat of a side. And when you’ve got one hard working midfielder paired with 2 expensive players that don’t put in a good shift, I think any manager’s going to prefer the guy who’s putting in the effort. Don’t get me wrong, I think Poch is clearly up to nothing at Chelsea. But I think Enzo’s a massive problem for any Chelsea manager. He’s got potential and technique but that’s not enough to be considered a top midfielder in this league. And Chelsea’s not a place where managers can be patient with a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,267 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 17 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: I’ve only talked to one Brighton fan regarding those transfers but they said Mac Allister was the real star of their midfield. And let’s also not forget once Mac Allister came into the Argentina midfield as a starter, that’s really when Enzo started to shine in that World Cup. And also let’s not forget that international football is very different to club level football. We’re just lucky he had a low release clause. Not to say Caicedo is bad or that he can’t turn it around - on paper he’s got all the attributes to be a top box to box midfielder. And he’s shown he can do that in this league. But he’s had some rubbish performances where he’s not put in the sort of shift required. I think Enzo made a massive mistake leaving Benfica too early when he could have been developing as the focal point of that side. That he’s being asked to do more off the ball isn’t surprising when he’s in a bigger league. Especially in a match like this final when even with all the injuries - our midfield is a good midfield. Endo, who cost just a fraction of both men absolutely dominated the two of them. Showing more work rate and quality than both. The midfield’s the engine room and heartbeat of a side. And when you’ve got one hard working midfielder paired with 2 expensive players that don’t put in a good shift, I think any manager’s going to prefer the guy who’s putting in the effort. Don’t get me wrong, I think Poch is clearly up to nothing at Chelsea. But I think Enzo’s a massive problem for any Chelsea manager. He’s got potential and technique but that’s not enough to be considered a top midfielder in this league. And Chelsea’s not a place where managers can be patient with a player. Literally every Brighton fan I've spoken to on other forums say differently. Caicedo was the player for them. Losing him was what pissed them the most off given how influential he was. IIRC Enzo controlled the tempo for Argentina, with De Paul and MacAllister doing the donkey work which took a heavy burden off of Messi as a result. He's being used as a box to box here which I will continue to say is a ineffective way to use him. You are going to find it difficult to convince any Chelsea fan that its the players lack of quality vs the mismanagement of the manager, considering we endured Lampard and he had us convinced Kante, Rudiger, Chilwell, and Christensen were average to the point we wanted to sell them. All 4 became mainstays in our European Cup win a few months later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 6 minutes ago, Cicero said: Literally every Brighton fan I've spoken to on other forums say differently. Caicedo was the player for them. Losing him was what pissed them the most off given how influential he was. IIRC Enzo controlled the tempo for Argentina, with De Paul and MacAllister doing the donkey work which took a heavy burden off of Messi as a result. He's being used as a box to box here which I will continue to say is a ineffective way to use him. You are going to find it difficult to convince any Chelsea fan that its the players lack of quality vs the mismanagement of the manager, considering we endured Lampard and he had us convinced Kante, Rudiger, Chilwell, and Christensen were average to the point we wanted to sell them. All 4 became mainstays in our European Cup win a few months later. Don’t get me wrong I think Chelsea need to get a new manager before getting rid of any players. But I do think anyone young, underperforming, and getting regular minutes and still not improving at all… it’s going to take something special, like a genuinely world class manager, to turn them around when they’re on a massive long term contract. And I’d be more worried about players like Enzo and the dogshit Ukrainian lad than Caicedo. And at the same time, it does send a message to Chelsea players again that despite the ownership change, the club will always get rid of a bad manager first. It doesn’t really do anything to change the perception that players can down tools when they want a new manager. Good players are well rounded in this era of football. Alexis is not a #6 & the Brighton fan I spoke to said we’d get the best of him box to box. Yet he performed more than capably as a #6 and we’re now seeing him play more in his best position and he’s looking immense. I think it’s not a good sign if a player worth more than £100m+ looks a shadow of himself when put in another midfield role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,206 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Klopp turned us around after Rodgers lost the plot almost immediately. Poch is basically just Lampard with more excuses & less “no but seriously” Mate Poch took Spurs to a Champions League final and within inches of winning the league. Spurs. The club notorious for being not very good. He’s a very good manager who is in charge of a shitshow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, Danny said: Mate Poch took Spurs to a Champions League final and within inches of winning the league. Spurs. The club notorious for being not very good. He’s a very good manager who is in charge of a shitshow That was a while ago, since then he looked bad at one of the richest clubs in Europe & has spent £1b to not actually do anything other than lose a final to a side they priced out of 2 players & trusts their academy as more than a source of funding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,206 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: That was a while ago, since then he looked bad at one of the richest clubs in Europe & has spent £1b to not actually do anything other than lose a final to a side they priced out of 2 players & trusts their academy as more than a source of funding. He hasn’t spent anything and you know that, he like Graham Potter is having to manage a shitshow with no long-term plan in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,267 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Managers who thrive in little to no pressure environments is another tale entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ 1,918 Posted February 26 Subscriber Share Posted February 26 4 hours ago, Danny said: Do you not think Chelsea losing that killer instinct is down to the ownership and their transfer model rather than Poch? Pochettino is a symptom of the ownership. He's a busted flush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick 2,276 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) Poch summed himself up with his management towards the end of the City game. Chelsea were completely in control, but he decided to take the mad decision of subbing off Palmer, the only player who can hold on to the ball. Just surrendered all possession to a City team who specialise in piling on constant pressure. Also, I think it’s mad that Chelsea fans would have anything but love for Gallagher. He’s one of the small handful of players who look like they are fucking arsed. Technically limited or not, he’s playing and acting like a good captain in a season where so many players are hiding. Edited February 26 by Rick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,190 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Danny said: He hasn’t spent anything and you know that, he like Graham Potter is having to manage a shitshow with no long-term plan in place. He has though and after a bad result at Everton he suggested the solution was spending more. He's not the only manager in Europe that doesn't have as much say in signings as someone above him - Directors of Football are no longer new to English football, they're basically the norm everywhere. Sure, Chelsea's board and DOF have a lot to answer for - but so does the person they've hired to get the most out of a promising young team. I'm sure part of it is there's an abject lack of experience at Chelsea and so many young faces, but at the same time this side is clearly punching below its weight. These players have a lot more experience on the whole than the kids who were thrown into a cup final due to injury with extra time to go - and Chelsea ended the 90 minutes with momentum on their side even if they couldn't finish. Then a bunch of teenagers ran riot in extra time. I think with Potter there was regression, but you can see he was trying to implement a system and maybe he was found out at a club too big for his tactics or maybe players just didn't respect him. With Poch, I can't see any clear cut system he's trying to implement. It's just throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks. 55 minutes ago, Rick said: Also, I think it’s mad that Chelsea fans would have anything but love for Gallagher. He’s one of the small handful of players who look like they are fucking arsed. Technically limited or not, he’s playing and acting like a good captain in a season where so many players are hiding. Gallagher and Gusto are some of the only Chelsea players that can leave that final with their head held high. And the captain thing is boggling to me, I can understand not wanting to give the captaincy to someone so young - but it's pretty clear Gallagher's at least got more of a captain's mentality than Chilwell. Chilwell didn't really do anything of note at all other than get pissed off teenagers played well against him and tried to get under their skin, but instead let them get under his skin and needed to get hauled off before he was sent off. I'm proud of the youngsters for coming on and not looking like the occasion was too much for them. I'm very proud of Endo, who's quietly made a case for himself being our signing of the season (alongside the excellent Mac Allister), for coming in and his signing being met with a lot of pessimism and dominating that match. But I am very surprised at how poor Chelsea have been this season, very surprised Poch looks like a completely spent force, and genuinely stunned that Chelsea didn't do more to press the advantage they had on paper in a cup final (which would have been Poch's first cup victory in England). But with Poch's tactics and the leadership in the squad looking like mentality midgets, maybe I shouldn't be surprised. But for all of Poch's failings this season, I think one thing you can't begrudge him is making Gallagher the main man in Chelsea's midfield. He's not as technically blessed as Enzo and he's not as physically blessed as Caicedo - but he's out there playing to win with more quality and effort than those 2 expensive players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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