Catalonia and Independence

[Kowabunga]

11 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Mate, I can't even start to argue this point with you because I don't know enough on it to be honest.  I have a basic to medium understanding on it with also a connection to family in Catalunya with diverse views on it all.  I used to follow it avidly but in latter times it has been very sparse and loose to say the least.  Infact I myself have become a basic shock reactionist to most occurrences in the world these days because my responsibilities have changed.  Having children does this to some people and I envy those it doesn't do this to.

I can believe learned individuals had a broad outlook on the future on what is the State of the Kingdom of Spain, but I find it very difficult to believe that anything was that of a great and detailed plan.  People may broadscope the future in certain terms, but people (especially Spaniards) are very one route and very tribal.  To change a mindset of a people isn't easy!  But it can be done in the sense of instant shock value and feeding propaganda...  More so today with internet and social media.

Consensus can always be reached if it's nipped at the bud!  It's like everything in life, even biological issues, isn't it.

This government has always been inept.  They're just a bunch of corrupt accountants...  Personal self obsessive accountants.  But I won't for a minute believe that anything else that's been available for over 20 years has been any different.  There ARE NO options and haven't been for a long while...  It's depressing and I can't see any positive outlook from any political party out there.  The two 'main' parties are incompetent and then there's this rise to fame from a bunch of intellectuals!!!!  WOW!  Imagine being governed by intellectuals...  Now that would be a laugh and a half and would really reduce the nation to absolute nothingness because they don't really have a plan other than to invent ghosts and once "defeated" move to the next one because there will always be ghosts.  When they can't find them so easily elsewhere they attack and bite each other.

Without a doubt Catalan politics has been a big player in all of this for over 30 years.  Their placidness lasted very little and they've always been very rancid on their outlook on anything other than their own.  A very xenophobic society to be honest and they've even managed to convert immigrant sons and daughters into rabid dogs.  But again...  This isn't only a creation of Catalan sociological mechanics.  The Catalan authorities and everything that revolves all of this have laid a base and believe it or not...  Those that fed the virus infested, rabid meat was the rest of the Peninsula.  The job has been made all that much easier by "Spain".

The cogs in the Spanish movement from the government to all the "patriots" will now offer their version of things but NOTHING to everyone else in the rest of the world will legitimise what was seen yesterday in a first world country by the policing authorities.  Those that are there to protect and not antagonise and physically beat people up for wanting to put a futile 'X' on a piece of paper.

What is to come: more catalan tribal supremacism in one side and militarism ("the army as the spine of the homeland",  Calvo Sotelo dixit)  in the most glorious reactionary Spanish tradition. Thrilling perspective. It looks like the most depressing Xanatos Gambit ever, set by someone who took a lot of time plotting every defeat path of the adversary, without acknowledging every path defeats him too.

 

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

What is to come: more catalan tribal supremacism in one side and militarism ("army as spine of the homeland",  Calvo Sotelo dixit)  in the most glorious reactionary Spanish tradition. Thrilling perspective. It looks like the most depressing Xanatos Gambit ever, settled by someone who took a lot of time plotting every defeat path of the adversary, without acknowledging every path defeats him too.

 

Indeed mate...  The sooner everyone comes to the conclusion that all will lose in this ridiculous stupidity, the better.  But even then I would say that too much damage has been done already.  For me the strike and wound from yesterday will be too deep and the scar will forever be remembered.  The 1st of October will become a marked day of "Spanish oppression" in the XXI century.

[Kowabunga]

41 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Indeed mate...  The sooner everyone comes to the conclusion that all will lose in this ridiculous stupidity, the better.  But even then I would say that too much damage has been done already.  For me the strike and wound from yesterday will be too deep and the scar will forever be remembered.  The 1st of October will become a marked day of "Spanish oppression" in the XXI century.

My favourite saying/mumbling these days is "pues vaya país de mierda se está quedando". This is heading towards a hopeless rotten society.

The equivalent for Catalonia is also particularly blatant in case you have invested some time in reading about some nasty mass movements in the past. I mean what kind of plural society (additionally take into account there is Catalonia irredenta out there for these guys) it is going to be built with these chaps at the helm?

 

NOTE: The ultra-left threatening the possibilist hard left about what is bound to happen in the New Arcadia. (LOL)

 

NOTE: Blut und Boden in the 21th century??? Hell yeah. By a supposed left-of-centre politician who proclaimedly claims himself not to be a nationalist.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

My favourite saying/mumbling these days is "pues vaya país de mierda se está quedando". This is heading towards a hopeless rotten society.

The equivalent for Catalonia is also particularly blatant in case you have invested some time in reading about some nasty mass movements in the past. I mean what kind of plural society (additionally take into account there is Catalonia irredenta out there for these guys) it is going to be built with these chaps at the helm?

 

NOTE: The ultra-left threatening the possibilist hard left about what is bound to happen in the New Arcadia. (LOL)

 

NOTE: Blut und Boden in the 21th century??? Hell yeah. By a supposed left-of-centre politician who proclaimedly claims himself not to be a nationalist.

Yeah, I've read quite a bit in the past to be honest and there was a time where I was quite obsessed with these things, not just in Catalunya but in other parts of Spain too.  I know Catalan society very well for various reasons and all I can say is that they have very xenophobic tendencies ingrained in their makeup.  It's not to say that they're the only ones, because there are others in Spain as you well know but they're a special case because the others (especially one part of the north of the Peninsula) are different in that aspect.  Infact they're odd in the sense that they're extremely welcoming and as long as politics doesn't appear on the menu of the day (something difficult in Spain), then you have a genuine friend family member for life.

I don't want to and am not searching to demonise Catalan society with this mind you because as we know, all generalisations in life are as venomous as anything else untoward.  But there is something strange there!

Aside from this...  Many things (as I've said many times) could've been avoided and a more modern Spain could've ben formulated with intelligent people looking for the best of everyone at the helm.

But imagine a government working for everyone these days?  A government doing this anywhere in the world mind you! Because I know how people are, I'm a student of people and there are many now with a wry smile on their faces at what's occurring because, hmmmm, well, because (I won't go into it), lets just leave it at because. 

[Kowabunga]

40 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Yeah, I've read quite a bit in the past to be honest and there was a time where I was quite obsessed with these things, not just in Catalunya but in other parts of Spain too.  I know Catalan society very well for various reasons and all I can say is that they have very xenophobic tendencies ingrained in their makeup.  It's not to say that they're the only ones, because there are others in Spain as you well know but they're a special case because the others (especially one part of the north of the Peninsula) are different in that aspect.  Infact they're odd in the sense that they're extremely welcoming and as long as politics doesn't appear on the menu of the day (something difficult in Spain), then you have a genuine friend family member for life.

I don't want to and am not searching to demonise Catalan society with this mind you because as we know, all generalisations in life are as venomous as anything else untoward.  But there is something strange there!

Aside from this...  Many things (as I've said many times) could've been avoided and a more modern Spain could've ben formulated with intelligent people looking for the best of everyone at the helm.

But imagine a government working for everyone these days?  A government doing this anywhere in the world mind you! Because I know how people are, I'm a student of people and there are many now with a wry smile on their faces at what's occurring because, hmmmm, well, because (I won't go into it), lets just leave it at because. 

Man, the problem, is precisely Catalonia is not yet a homogeneus society and ethnic cleansing (of the educational/linguistic sort ) would be bound to happen in an independent Catalonia. Actually it's probably for the best to aim for the quick creation of an ethno-state while riding the populist wave if they don't want to have the Troubles.

The latest and most funny addition to the doctrine has been this cult-like providentialist thing with the Companys proclamation of the Republic and later assasination (actually a sort of repeat of mystical portuguese Sebastianism), that have made a zero on the left like Puigdemont (mediocre publicist and politician) to be the messiah because he dreams about being Companys.

 

 

 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Kowabunga said:

Man, the problem, is precisley is not homogeneus and ethnic cleansing (of the educational/linguistic sort ) would be bound to happen in an independent Catalonia. Actually it's probably for the best to aim for the creation of ethno-state if they don't want to have the Troubles.

I think it is always about rebelling about the existence of a nation. The latest and more funnier addition to the doctrine has been this  cult-like providentialist thing with the Companys proclamation of the Republic and later assasination (actually a sort of repeat of mystical portuguese Sebastianism), that have made a zero on the left like Puigdemont (mediocre publicist and politician) to be the messiah.

 

 

 

They're all searching to be the "Messiah" mate....  Joan Laporta had a hilarious rise and fall from self proclaimed hand of salvation psychosis.  Infact his fall is the epitome of the mark of Catalan society mate.

Put it this way...  What you've just said about an 'ethno-state' is exactly the issue because it's false unless you're Japan!

Catalunya are the mirror image of the good old USofA...  Only this (Catalunya) is a bourgeois version of the North American giant.  Very insular in almost every aspect apart from its biggest most international city of New York (Barcelona) and a nation built off the back of immigration (need I go any further).  It's false and there are only a hand full of pure Catalans (the bourgeois), those that hammered Laporta down for his insolence.

[Kowabunga]

 

 

Two punctual cases of degradation of convivence. The respective law enforcement bodies* become "national" heroes for some people in both sides. I personally find the former scene way creepier than the later, but I guess it could be explained by cognitive dissonances.

Lyrics 1 (official Hymn of Catalonia. Recreated in the early 20th century as based in a 17th century Castilian-phobic war song)

Catalonia triumphant

shall again be rich and bountiful.

Drive away these people

Who are so conceited and so arrogant.

Strike with your sickle!

Strike with your sickle, defenders of the land!

Strike with your sickle!

Now is the time, reapers.

Now is the time to stand alert.

For when another June comes,

Let us sharpen our tools well.

Chorus

May the enemy tremble,

upon seeing our symbol.

Just as we cut golden ears of wheat,

when the time calls we cut off chains.

Lyrics 2 (informal chant, substitutive of the lyric-less** hymn in Spanish NT football celebrations)

Go get 'em, OE, Go get 'em, OE, Go get 'em, OE, Go get 'em..

 

NOTES;

*Arguably the mossos have ceased to be a functional law enforcement agency.

** Officially without lyrics. Interwar monarchist and far-right literary idol José María Pemán wrote some lyrics for the hymn in the late 1920s, later tweaked in the early francoist dictatorship to change "yoke and wheels" to falangist "yoke and arrows".

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

 

 

Two punctual cases of degradation of convivence. The respective law enforcement bodies* become "national" heroes for some people in both sides. I personally find the former scene way creepier than the later, but I guess it could be explained by cognitive dissonances.

Lyrics 1 (official Hymn of Catalonia. Recreated in the early 20th century as based in a 17th century Castilian-phobic war song)

Catalonia triumphant

shall again be rich and bountiful.

Drive away these people

Who are so conceited and so arrogant.

Strike with your sickle!

Strike with your sickle, defenders of the land!

Strike with your sickle!

Now is the time, reapers.

Now is the time to stand alert.

For when another June comes,

Let us sharpen our tools well.

Chorus

May the enemy tremble,

upon seeing our symbol.

Just as we cut golden ears of wheat,

when the time calls we cut off chains.

Lyrics 2 (informal chant, substitutive of the lyric-less** hymn in Spanish NT football celebrations)

Go get 'em, OE, Go get 'em, OE, Go get 'em, OE, Go get 'em..

 

NOTES;

*Arguably the mossos have ceased to be a functional law enforcement agency.

** Officially without lyrics. Interwar monarchist and far-right literary idol José María Pemán wrote some lyrics for the hymn in the late 1920s, later tweaked in the early francoist dictatorship to change "yoke and wheels" to falangist "yoke and arrows".

The hymn, or anthem, whatever that is, is indeed creepy.

How many countries are now split down the middle one way or another?

[Fairy In Boots]

lol it must gall that occasionally he seem’s to be bang on. He’s completely right here about Spain and the EU.

[SirBalon]

11 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

lol it must gall that occasionally he seem’s to be bang on. He’s completely right here about Spain and the EU.

That's fair enough, but what is he searching for?

He's just full of demagoguery.  He's all blah blah blah...  Brexit has absolutely nothing to do in any shape or form to what has happened in Spain over the weekend (Oct 1st).  Where's the connection?

He went off on a tangent about Spain's internal issues and then went onto (seamlessly) talk about how the Brexit negotiations are going. 

He's an idiot and a laughing stock in Europe.  I would expect those in the room want him to stay indefinitely to have a joke or two over a pint after his rants every now and then.

[Fairy In Boots]

He was answering a question about Brexit and used his opportunity to point out the incident in Spain being ignored by the EU. 

[Kowabunga]

While agitprop takes place in plaça Universitat where people carrying feel-good posters waving their hands claiming to be peaceful and claiming there is no social fracture in Catalonia, a Ukranian man facing a picket line makes a clear statement of the small line between what they have now and war. He warns insurrectionary "pseudo-strikers" about what may be in the future.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

He was answering a question about Brexit and used his opportunity to point out the incident in Spain being ignored by the EU. 

It hasn't been ignored by the EU at all and they answered straight away the following day extensively.  Infact there are meetings to be had in the following weeks in relation to this...  But it's an internal issue!  The Spanish authorities aren't involved in some sort of mass genocide of the Catalan people and that was an isolated incident (1st Oct) that got out of hand and which the Spanish government should sort out.  

His rhetoric was inconsequential with anything he spoke about and he would do best to maintain the line of ideology he has and not get involved in what occurs in the EU as he is the person least indicated to comment on it.

[Kowabunga]

24 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It hasn't been ignored by the EU at all and they answered straight away the following day extensively.  Infact there are meetings to be had in the following weeks in relation to this...  But it's an internal issue!  The Spanish authorities aren't involved in some sort of mass genocide of the Catalan people and that was an isolated incident (1st Oct) that got out of hand and which the Spanish government should sort out.  

His rhetoric was inconsequential with anything he spoke about and he would do best to maintain the line of ideology he has and not get involved in what occurs in the EU as he is the person least indicated to comment on it.

By the way. The State law enforcement agencies (and with them the last remains of the State) are retreating from great chunks of the Catalan territory, harassed by angry mobs in the countryside (supported by firemen squads disturbing the sleep of the officers with sirens). From afar the perception is a sense of hate. And there is already a report of harassing to actual Catalan citizens not supporting the "procès" in Barcelona. Which is particularly sick because with independence you should  get along with them instead of driving them out from your Arcadia. A UDI is coming this weekend or earlier, apparently.

The Spanish police in full gutural fashion:

 

PS: Farage. Useless muppet. Only consequence of his unconsequential rant is González Pons scoring a cheap and lazy ad-hominem on him.

 

 

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

By the way. The State law enforcement agencies (and with them the last remains of the State) are retreating from great chunks of the Catalan territory, harassed by angry mobs in the countryside (supported by firemen squads disturbing the sleep of the officers with sirens). From afar the perception is a sense of hate. And there is already a report of harassing to actual Catalan citizens not supporting the "procès" in Barcelona. Which is particularly sick because with independence you should  get along with them instead of driving them out from your Arcadia. A UDI is coming this weekend or earlier, apparently.

The Spanish police in full gutural fashion:

 

PS: Farage. Useless muppet. Only consequence of his unconsequential rant is González Pons scoring a cheap and lazy ad-hominem on him.

 

 

Farage is an opportunist...  You don't have to have too much intelligence to see this because no politician speaks in the manner he does while only fashioning issues and being a human bullet-point creator.  He manufactures sentiment via easy motion speaking.  Even in the months approaching the Brexit vote (a vote I used at the time to opt out of the EU) he was the person I least listened to because I'd had my mind practically made up (grand error) and the few times I couldn't get away from his preaching were moments I thought about voting to stay in (should've listened to my conscience tbh).

As for what's occurring in Catalunya right now, it's normal.  The authority forces in the manner they acted have legitimised the motives for those that have wanted to act in the manner they are now.

As for harassing those known to be pro-Union, well that's nothing new over there.  It's been happening for a number of years mate.  Now because of Oct 1st as I said in my first paragraph, it almost seems legitimised and just (which it isn't obviously).

[Honey Honey]

 

[Panna King]

[Kowabunga]

 

[The Artful Dodger]

The King's speech wasn't particularly helpful, reaffirming Madrid's view but with seemingly little mention of the violence. 

It's been awfully handled by the state, what could have been dealt with by simply ignorning the vote but allowing it has spiralled into what may an irreversible break up of Spain. If Catalonia goes, why would the Basques accept being part of Spain?

[Inverted]

Farage can't seem to make up is mind as to whether the EU is too powerful or whether it needs to take a harder line with member states. 

[Kowabunga]

20 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

The King's speech wasn't particularly helpful, reaffirming Madrid's view but with seemingly little mention of the violence. 

It's been awfully handled by the state, what could have been dealt with by simply ignorning the vote but allowing it has spiralled into what may an irreversible break up of Spain. If Catalonia goes, why would the Basques accept being part of Spain?

Indeed. He just paved the way for the passing of article 155 of the  Constitution, with no seemingly alternative.

Additionally, he reportedly speaks Catalan, but he refused to use it in the speech.

 

[SirBalon]

Just like any monarch today, they're controlled by the state and they will be the voice of that.  He should've had the balls he had when he chose his future wife and merely at least mentioned the ott brutality by the policing authorities and most of all spoken in a language he manipulates to perfection which is Catalan.

[Honey Honey]

What a loon

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

What a loon

He wants to declare independence when he coaxed his people into voting in an illegal referendum, with less than half of the population of the autonomous region voting, a vote that wasn't even regulated correctly and wasn't controlled adequately.  He can declare all he likes...  It's like me getting my road to declare independence from Islington council via a referendum I convince them to participate in.

[Honey Honey]

22 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

He wants to declare independence when he coaxed his people into voting in an illegal referendum, with less than half of the population of the autonomous region voting, a vote that wasn't even regulated correctly and wasn't controlled adequately.  He can declare all he likes...  It's like me getting my road to declare independence from Islington council via a referendum I convince them to participate in.