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Catalonia and Independence

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It's getting to the point now where it appears the Spanish Government have full on lost their shit.  It's widely reported here that they've been actively suppressing democracy, allegations of taking down internet content, ballots being withheld and talk of police deployments to suppress the vote. Are we in China? No we're in the EU 👏🏻

 

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¿Hola muchachos, como estáis vosotros? ¡Cuánto tiempo!

Image result for franco

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7 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

It's getting to the point now where it appears the Spanish Government have full on lost their shit.  It's widely reported here that they've been actively suppressing democracy, allegations of taking down internet content, ballots being withheld and talk of police deployments to suppress the vote. Are we in China? No we're in the EU 👏🏻

 

I have no idea where you may have formulated your opinion or via which medium you access news in this particular detail mate.

The referendum is anti constitutional. The constitution Catalonia signed to decades back as did everyone else and the one everybody adheres to.

What I’m saying is that it’s ilegal.

I personally believe that the referendum should be held but for that to happen legaly, the constitution must be amended.

What freedom doesn’t Catalonia have?

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38 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I have no idea where you may have formulated your opinion or via which medium you access news in this particular detail mate.

The referendum is anti constitutional. The constitution Catalonia signed to decades back as did everyone else and the one everybody adheres to.

What I’m saying is that it’s ilegal.

I personally believe that the referendum should be held but for that to happen legaly, the constitution must be amended.

What freedom doesn’t Catalonia have?

The same "freedom" the UK lacked apparently under the slave owners of the EU

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42 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I have no idea where you may have formulated your opinion or via which medium you access news in this particular detail mate.

The referendum is anti constitutional. The constitution Catalonia signed to decades back as did everyone else and the one everybody adheres to.

What I’m saying is that it’s ilegal.

I personally believe that the referendum should be held but for that to happen legaly, the constitution must be amended.

What freedom doesn’t Catalonia have?

Can it be amended regarding the referendum? Most Constitutions do not tolerate secession and are immutable regarding the territory of the State. 

And even if it was amended, all Spain should take part the referendum in my opinion, as every spanish would be affected. 

 

https://davidjimenezblog.com/2013/09/13/catalonia-is-not-tibet/

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7 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Domingo Batet The Wise? No?... I thought not. It's not a story the Sith would tell.

Imagen12.jpg

 

Gimme a quick rundown in the queen's

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4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I have no idea where you may have formulated your opinion or via which medium you access news in this particular detail mate.

The referendum is anti constitutional. The constitution Catalonia signed to decades back as did everyone else and the one everybody adheres to.

What I’m saying is that it’s ilegal.

I personally believe that the referendum should be held but for that to happen legaly, the constitution must be amended.

What freedom doesn’t Catalonia have?

Lol I'm just pulling a few legs with "Freedom" in the title. In reality I'm neutral on Catalonian independence but I disagree with Madrid tampering and actively seeking to coerce a response from its population. Whether the referendum is binding or not is another conversation, I'm just adverse to a government seeking to force a result in a democratic voting process, it's very poor. Madrid should have just pointed out it's not valid and the result will change nothing and let it run its course, by meddling they've legitimised Catalonian grievances with Madrid and increased the tension considerably. The EU comment is also to get a few bites, partly because of the similarities between the Spanish Government's behaviour and that of the EU any time they get a result they don't like.  It's worked see Cark who literally rejoices in being a cuckolded thrall of Brussels beauracracy, having a nibble.  

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7 hours ago, El_Loco said:

Can it be amended regarding the referendum? Most Constitutions do not tolerate secession and are immutable regarding the territory of the State. 

And even if it was amended, all Spain should take part the referendum in my opinion, as every spanish would be affected. 

 

https://davidjimenezblog.com/2013/09/13/catalonia-is-not-tibet/

Politically Spain is a mess at this moment in time as you well might know mate.  We had two general elections because nobody could decide who should be in power and then we have the main party opposition that has lost its identity and gone mental...  They don't know who or what they are!  Other parties that are growing down the line like 'Podemos' would turn Spain into the biggest joke state in the world.  Imagine not just having very vocal vociferous intellectuals in your universities...  Image they had a democratic opportunity to run the country!!! xD  What a mess!

Some Catalans have been very intelligent in choosing Spain's most politically shambolic period in its contemporary history.  They KNOW that its anti-constitutional and they always knew it couldn't be done.  But all the hooh-hah will open up the eyes of people around the world that had never heard the word Catalonia before...  People that maybe thought Barcelona was in Andalusia or maybe a town in Ibiza.

As for everyone taking place in the referendum...  Mate!  If the Catalan referendum is made constitutionally legal, a few other parts of Spain wouldn't take all that long to ask for theirs.

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol I'm just pulling a few legs with "Freedom" in the title. In reality I'm neutral on Catalonian independence but I disagree with Madrid tampering and actively seeking to coerce a response from its population. Whether the referendum is binding or not is another conversation, I'm just adverse to a government seeking to force a result in a democratic voting process, it's very poor. Madrid should have just pointed out it's not valid and the result will change nothing and let it run its course, by meddling they've legitimised Catalonian grievances with Madrid and increased the tension considerably. The EU comment is also to get a few bites, partly because of the similarities between the Spanish Government's behaviour and that of the EU any time they get a result they don't like.  It's worked see Cark who literally rejoices in being a cuckolded thrall of Brussels beauracracy, having a nibble.  

If you let a formal legal autonomous government run a referendum they believe should be ethically valid because it's a democratic process even if it is anti-constitutional, a constitution your autonomy helped write up.  Then whatever the hypothetical result comes out with would only serve to cause more strife.  It is either made legal so it can be done with rules set on its eventual outcome or it's not legal and it's not permitted.  Why have a result cause more issues when the result isn't valid?

But I agree with you...  It should've been permitted even if it wasn't valid.  It should've actually been permitted four years ago when they first wanted to do it because many things were different then.

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5 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Google it like the rest of us had to. 

I was on mobile

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5 minutes ago, Spike said:

I was on mobile

I don't login on an actual computer mate, its mobile only 90-95% of the time. 

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Politically Spain is a mess at this moment in time as you well might know mate.  We had two general elections because nobody could decide who should be in power and then we have the main party opposition that has lost its identity and gone mental...  They don't know who or what they are!  Other parties that are growing down the line like 'Podemos' would turn Spain into the biggest joke state in the world.  Imagine not just having very vocal vociferous intellectuals in your universities...  Image they had a democratic opportunity to run the country!!! xD  What a mess!

Some Catalans have been very intelligent in choosing Spain's most politically shambolic period in its contemporary history.  They KNOW that its anti-constitutional and they always knew it couldn't be done.  But all the hooh-hah will open up the eyes of people around the world that had never heard the word Catalonia before...  People that maybe thought Barcelona was in Andalusia or maybe a town in Ibiza.

As for everyone taking place in the referendum...  Mate!  If the Catalan referendum is made constitutionally legal, a few other parts of Spain wouldn't take all that long to ask for theirs.

If you let a formal legal autonomous government run a referendum they believe should be ethically valid because it's a democratic process even if it is anti-constitutional, a constitution your autonomy helped write up.  Then whatever the hypothetical result comes out with would only serve to cause more strife.  It is either made legal so it can be done with rules set on its eventual outcome or it's not legal and it's not permitted.  Why have a result cause more issues when the result isn't valid?

But I agree with you...  It should've been permitted even if it wasn't valid.  It should've actually been permitted four years ago when they first wanted to do it because many things were different then.

Agreed but let's face it Catalonia we're never going to be permitted a referendum by Madrid is it really. 

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4 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I don't login on an actual computer mate, its mobile only 90-95% of the time. 

Agreed but let's face it Catalonia we're never going to be permitted a referendum by Madrid is it really. 

It's not about Madrid mate as it isn't about London where the Scottish independence movement is concerned.  It's about a set of rules, call them a constitution or whatever you want.  Those rules are signed up for by everyone and then there's consensus based on many factors ranging from history to present economic, territorial and ethical factors.  Madrid as an autonomous region has no power to give any rights concerning the breaking of the rules...  It's a parliamentary issue and as @El_Loco touched upon, it's a national issue and one the whole nation has to subscribe to.  Before the constitution can be amended, there should be a democratic process involving the nation and whether or not that amendment should take place because it would be good for the country as a whole...  Obviously that's where it would break down because a region such as Catalunya separating from the Kingdom of Spain would be detrimental to the country's future and then enter the future respective autonomous regions with growing dissent demanding the same thing.

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"I do not know of a posture more naive, and furthermore stupid, than to bury the head in the sand and maintain, as some have maintained, that Catalonia does not have a language of its own, that it does not have customs of its own, that it does not have a history of its own, that it has nothing at all. Were this the case, then naturally there would not be the issue of [Catalan separatism], and we would not have to bother attempting to study or resolve it. Yet this is not what is happening, gentlemen, and all of us know this very well. Catalonia exists with all of its individuality, and many regions in Spain exist with all their individuality, and if we want to know what Spain is; if we want to provide Spain with a structure, we have to work with what Spain offers in reality. It is exactly the denial [of this reality] on top of the aforementioned ineptitude that places the problem in the least favourable terrain for those who pretend to defend the unity of Spain. For if we persist in denying that Catalonia and other regions have chararacteristics of their own, it is because we tacitly recognise that it is through these characteristics that the nation is defined. As a result of this, we lose this dispute when it is proven, as can easily be proven, that many peoples in Spain have their own characteristics."

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1 hour ago, Kowabunga said:

 

 

:D

Who is 'Makinote 68' mate? O.o

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1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

Who is 'Makinote 68' mate? O.o

A fictional shitposter in the comment section of Marca.com

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Just now, Kowabunga said:

A fictional shitposter in the comment section of Marca.com

Aaah ok! I get it now... 

There's been various mass demonstrations in call for unity in Spain today I've been told.

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Just now, SirBalon said:

Aaah ok! I get it now... 

There's been various mass demonstrations in call for unity in Spain today I've been told.

Dunno. Didn't care to attend to the flag-parties (I don't like the Spanish flag anyways).  I would just want to make a case for the virtues of legal positivism so out of vogue in these troubled times in opposition to the sleazy ways of "Putsch"-demont, even in this dark corner of the internet.

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1 hour ago, Kowabunga said:

Dunno. Didn't care to attend to the flag-parties (I don't like the Spanish flag anyways).  I would just want to make a case for the virtues of legal positivism so out of vogue in these troubled times in opposition to the sleazy ways of "Putsch"-demont, even in this dark corner of the internet.

Would you say that the push for Catalan independence could spur the Republican movement? 

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1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Would you say that the push for Catalan independence could spur the Republican movement? 

As in becoming a more pressing issue in the already republican-ist parliamentary left? Maybe. But it will also spur reactive nationalism, deeply entrenched with monarchism. Maybe even Vox actually getting seats. 

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The Spanish government think they can stop Catalonia from having curly bananas forever but freedom will win.

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Thats Karma for colonizing too many parts of the world in the past :ph34r:

Edited by Azeem98
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On 9/30/2017 at 10:30 AM, SirBalon said:

I have no idea where you may have formulated your opinion or via which medium you access news in this particular detail mate.

The referendum is anti constitutional. The constitution Catalonia signed to decades back as did everyone else and the one everybody adheres to.

What I’m saying is that it’s ilegal.

I personally believe that the referendum should be held but for that to happen legaly, the constitution must be amended.

What freedom doesn’t Catalonia have?

 

all this hassle is all for naught ........

 

even if 100% voted for independence the Spanish Government will not accept it.     I wonder why would the catalonias go to such lengths even if they know that it will not go favourably for them.

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19 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

 

all this hassle is all for naught ........

 

even if 100% voted for independence the Spanish Government will not accept it.     I wonder why would the catalonias go to such lengths even if they know that it will not go favourably for them.

Demonstrating in mass always has an impact and it's been happening for over 100 years in Spain because this is nothing new.

What I find curious is the incredibly large amount of first generation Catalans that seem to be the most vociferous in all of this.  I'm talking about those who's parents emigrated from other parts of Spain to Catalunya.  But then again this occurs in other walks of life where those that feel something a lot more than those affected tend to be third parties with nothing better to do than to look for the next battle to fight.

We also have to understand that Spanish society in general tends to be like this.  There's always a reason to moan and in Catalunya the main favourite is how the great oppressor from 'La Peninsula' is taking away their freedom.

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39 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Demonstrating in mass always has an impact and it's been happening for over 100 years in Spain because this is nothing new.

What I find curious is the incredibly large amount of first generation Catalans that seem to be the most vociferous in all of this.  I'm talking about those who's parents emigrated from other parts of Spain to Catalunya.  But then again this occurs in other walks of life where those that feel something a lot more than those affected tend to be third parties with nothing better to do than to look for the next battle to fight.

We also have to understand that Spanish society in general tends to be like this.  There's always a reason to moan and in Catalunya the main favourite is how the great oppressor from 'La Peninsula' is taking away their freedom.

you being in spain.    can you shed some light to what truly is happening between this so called OPPRESSION Spain has made to Catalunya ??    Of course, Martial Law has ended years ago, but why all this dissatisfaction from the Catalans ??     Is the GDP of Catalunya bigger than that of Spain that the Catalans have recognized that they are better off without them having to give their GDP to the main government ??

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52 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

you being in spain.    can you shed some light to what truly is happening between this so called OPPRESSION Spain has made to Catalunya ??    Of course, Martial Law has ended years ago, but why all this dissatisfaction from the Catalans ??     Is the GDP of Catalunya bigger than that of Spain that the Catalans have recognized that they are better off without them having to give their GDP to the main government ??

I’m not living in Spain, I live and was born in London but my parents emigrated to the UK and I lived in Spain for 10 years (Valencia) aside from all ky summers as a child being spent in Spain etc... etc...

There is a strong national identity sentiment in Catalunya since almost forever but then again a similar thing can be said of other selective autonomous regions of Spain.

There are so many reasons that can be cited as to why they feel this way from culture, language and economics. Panflute used a quote further up which gives a brief understanding of some of this.

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Just got a breaking news notification to my phone saying the militia in Spain, er, I mean the Police, are firing rubber bullets at people. Already seen pictures of old women being dragged all over the place. Strange police force. The worst this side of the continent for sure, obsessed with violence.

Should have just let the the vote happen because it wasn't going to achieve anything. 

How can you vote to break away from a central authority in €1.1trn of debt and a central bank in Frankfurt when neither recognise the vote as legitimate and legal. Oh. You can't.

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It's the Guardia Civil...  They are the military end of the police and funnily enough they're hardly visible in Catalunya but have been moved in recently due to the referendum issue.  This is the government's fault and not so much the police.  It's the government who enable these things.

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