World Cup 2018: Russia - General Chat

[SirBalon]

20 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

Club fandom during the world cup is toxic.

???

[Azeem]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

???

I don't like that people love to see Messi missing a penalty just because he plays for a club they don't like.

Same goes for Ronaldo.

[Honey Honey]

33 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

I don't like that people love to see Messi missing a penalty just because he plays for a club they don't like.

Same goes for Ronaldo.

If those players own club fans weren't emotionally attached to that player at the world cup then perhaps rival fans wouldn't enjoy seeing them do badly?

[Azeem]

9 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

If those players own club fans weren't emotionally attached to that player at the world cup then perhaps rival fans wouldn't enjoy seeing them do badly?

As someone who isn't emotionally attached to club football i only see World Cup as an 'international competition' and don't like seeing club rivalries in the World Cup.

 

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Devon Von Devon said:

I don't like that people love to see Messi missing a penalty just because he plays for a club they don't like.

Same goes for Ronaldo.

I agree with you.  I didn't get what you meant at first but I had an inkling which is why I left the question marks.

Without a doubt you want the players that play for clubs you have sympathies with do well but I also have never understood how this "fanboyism" transcends club football into the international version.  International tournaments are the chance to see all (or as many) of the great players perform for a month or so...  It's a moment to celebrate and enjoy this sport.

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, Devon Von Devon said:

As someone who isn't emotionally attached to club football i only see World Cup as an 'international competition' and don't like seeing club rivalries in the World Cup.

Club and country are inextricably linked. Some of the most intense nervousness I have ever experienced in football were when Alan Shearer, Kieron Dyer, Michael Owen and Andy Carroll played for England when they were Newcastle players. They weren't just out there to do England proud they were doing Newcastle proud as well. 

But the issue we're talking about where fans don't mediate their club rivalries is the result of the world cup being redundant as an international competition. It's a symptom of a redundant competition. Clubs are international now so where I might mediate my rivalry with Jordan Henderson and Jordan Pickford I wouldn't have to if they were playing for another nation, then I could bring down my rivals pride.

 

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

I agree with you.  I didn't get what you meant at first but I had an inkling which is why I left the question marks.

Without a doubt you want the players that play for clubs you have sympathies with do well but I also have never understood how this "fanboyism" transcends club football into the international version.  International tournaments are the chance to see all (or as many) of the great players perform for a month or so...  It's a moment to celebrate and enjoy this sport.

That looks like a 1980s argument 

These days I can watch Messi 50 times a year with ease, I don't need a month every 4 years to do it.

With players crossing borders the Champions League is now the place to watch the best players on the planet and far more regularly than the world cup.

International football is redundant and exists out of people clinging onto a powerfully emotive past and some sketchy patriotism/nationalism thrown on top.

[Azeem]

1 minute ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Club and country are inextricably linked. Some of the most intense nervousness I have ever experienced in football were when Alan Shearer, Kieron Dyer, Michael Owen and Andy Carroll played for England when they were Newcastle players. They weren't just out there to do England proud they were doing Newcastle proud as well. 

But the issue we're talking about where fans don't mediate their club rivalries is the result of the world cup being redundant as an international competition. It's a symptom of a redundant competition. Clubs are international now so where I might mediate my rivalry with Jordan Henderson and Jordan Pickford I wouldn't have to if they were playing for another nation. 

 

That looks like a 1980s argument 

These days I can watch Messi 50 times a year with ease, I don't need a month every 4 years to do it.

With players crossing borders the Champions League is now the place to watch the best players on the planet and far more regularly than the world cup.

International football is redundant and exists out of people clinging onto a powerfully emotive past and some sketchy patriotism/nationalism thrown on top.

For English where international football is dead and so is patriotism.

[Honey Honey]

15 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

For English where international football is dead and so is patriotism.

Patriotism is definitely not dead in England or Western European nations. The world cup is hijacked by political figures, royals and non-football fans. Masses become engrossed in the world cup. Office sweepstakes and bar outings spread to people who know nothing about football. The redudancy of having a world cup is overlooked because of romatic conceptions of the past with a sprinkling of ugly patriotism.

 

[Azeem]

Just now, Kitchen Sales said:

Patriotism is definitely not dead in England or Western European nations.

But its not that high as other countries probbably because you don't have the victim card to play.

The world cup is hijacked by political figures, royals and non-club football fans. Masses become engrossed in the world cup. Office sweepstakes and bar outings spread to people who know nothing about football.

That's the case in everyother major sport.

The redudancy of having a world cup is overlooked because of romatic conceptions of the past with a sprinkling of ugly patriotism.

Club football is on the reason why World Cup isn't like what was it in the past

 

 

[Harry]

Am I the only one wondering whether Jorge Sampaoli has had a facelift or an eye tuck since the last World Cup?

 

[SirBalon]

30 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Club and country are inextricably linked. Some of the most intense nervousness I have ever experienced in football were when Alan Shearer, Kieron Dyer, Michael Owen and Andy Carroll played for England when they were Newcastle players. They weren't just out there to do England proud they were doing Newcastle proud as well. 

But the issue we're talking about where fans don't mediate their club rivalries is the result of the world cup being redundant as an international competition. It's a symptom of a redundant competition. Clubs are international now so where I might mediate my rivalry with Jordan Henderson and Jordan Pickford I wouldn't have to if they were playing for another nation, then I could bring down my rivals pride.

 

That looks like a 1980s argument 

These days I can watch Messi 50 times a year with ease, I don't need a month every 4 years to do it.

With players crossing borders the Champions League is now the place to watch the best players on the planet and far more regularly than the world cup.

International football is redundant and exists out of people clinging onto a powerfully emotive past and some sketchy patriotism/nationalism thrown on top.

I get you and in large part you're correct that football has become more international in the broader sense of the word. You couldn't see anything regarding other leagues 20 to 30 years back.  But what I meant is that we get all these players at once in one tournament. The Champions League doesn't encompass all players.

[Azeem]

11 hours ago, Spike said:

Why does Messi insist on taking penalties? He has never been particularly great at them throughout his career. @Berserker @SirBalon

So he can prove that he can take penalties.

[Honey Honey]

10 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

That last paragraph is laughable

Because?

I've told people off about shit posts in debates like that before. Either engage in debate or don't post at all. The advancement of ideas requires people talking about them, exploring them, disproving, proving, understanding, grasping. The trend to just deliver a one line expression of ridicule is a twitter type disease that protects instinctual scoffing from the air of actual thought.

 

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

I get you and in large part you're correct that football has become more international in the broader sense of the word. You couldn't see anything regarding other leagues 20 to 30 years back.  But what I meant is that we get all these players at once in one tournament. The Champions League doesn't encompass all players.

The world cup doesn't encompass all players either. Italy and the Netherlands aren't here as two noteable sides. Messi and Ronaldo are having to play alongside worse players than they do at club level. 

I would argue the major nations are the worst they have ever been in that they do not have the depth of great names. The cause of that perception is not that they aren't good but that there are a limited number of places as a great in Europe's limited great clubs and they are now spread across players from all over the world, not concentrated more towards one nation. 

 

7 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

But its not that high as other countries probbably because you don't have the victim card to play.

High suggests that there is some sort of universal measurable characteristic. England might not be high in overt expressions of patriotism but it manifests itself in different ways for cultural reasons.

 

7 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

That's the case in everyother major sport.

I don't understand the point? 

7 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

 

Club football is on the reason why World Cup isn't like what was it in the past

I am not arguing that it is redundant because of what it is like but because of what its purpose is, which is now lost. So the question I am asking is why are we still doing it? The reason being that we have strong emotional connections to past world cups which creates a lust and love for the tournament, along with the ease at which people draw on their patriotism to easily access emotional connection.

[SirBalon]

31 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

So he can prove that he can take penalties.

I don't think it's about wanting to prove anything as that would be a selfish way to be. He genuinely thinks he will put it away and he wants to take responsibility. 

A lot is being made out of this which goes along with the question I asked you to clarify earlier on...  

The media make a lot of these things because the modern fan reacts accordingly and needs to be fed this type of scenario.

But the football fan knows penalties are a lottery more times than not and the greatest players in history have missed penalties at World Cups.

[Azeem]

4 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

 

 

High suggests that there is some sort of universal measurable characteristic. England might not be high in overt expressions of patriotism but it manifests itself in different ways for cultural reasons.

For major parts of the world that were colonized patriotism is shown more explicitly in the form of independance days etc.

 

I don't understand the point? 

Cricket has been hijacked by politics, bollowywood super stars, and when the World Cup is on even those people who have never even watched a Test match come up with face paint to cheer for their team.

I am not arguing that it is redundant because of what it is like but because of what its purpose is, which is now lost. So the question I am asking is why are we still doing it?

Isn't Club football also lost for what it was meant to be ? But you still follow it.

 

The reason being that we have strong emotional connections to past world cups which creates a lust and love for the tournament, along with the ease at which people draw on their patriotism to easily access emotional connection.

 

[Azeem]

9 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I don't think it's about wanting to prove anything as that would be a selfish way to be. He genuinely thinks he will put it away and he wants to take responsibility. 

A lot is being made out of this which goes along with the question I asked you to clarify earlier on...  

The media make a lot of these things because the modern fan reacts accordingly and needs to be fed this type of scenario.

But the football fan knows penalties are a lottery more times than not and the greatest players in history have missed penalties at World Cups.

Sometimes taking responsibility means letting go what ones think or want.

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

Sometimes taking responsibility means letting go what ones think or want.

It should mean that, but not everyone's character is directed in that manner... Footballers these days start at a very early age and are tutored in the arts of nullifying natural human characteristics all the way from understanding how to handle the media to seeing the pitch as their home and their everything.  It's like a father defending his child come what may!  The sensation is similar when you decipher how players feel in many cases (not all, mercenaries aside). 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Batard said:

With the exception of Spain Portugal which felt like a league fixture, this tournament has been toss. So few teams play like a team. Creativity in the final 3rd has been abject. And with a 48 team world cup In the future, I can only see the quality getting worse. 

I think the bar is raised a bit too high - with all the hype and expectations after the great WC that was 2014, I've enjoyed it so far. 

[Guest]

My dad told me once that whenever a World Cup is in Europe, South American sides struggle more than often, and its proving to be the case so far. Its no excuse by any means, but its interesting to point out. The last tournament in Europe had 4 European semi-finalists. 

That said, the style of each South American team in the past qualifiers has been toss. Argentina and Colombia are both awful while Uruguay play an ugly style that works. Peru is too inexperienced. Brazil will probably change things for all of us.

[Marc]

Great world cup so far, all my predictions coming in and England still unbeaten.

[Honey Honey]

41 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

Isn't Club football also lost for what it was meant to be ? But you still follow it.

Yes and you will repeatedly see across the forum this playing out in debates and conflicts between many fans. English football has been going through an identity crisis since at least when I started on forums in 2004. 

However International football doesn't have an identity crisis. There is no crisis being played out. It should be facing a crisis of legitimacy but it is being masked by the reasons I previously given.

[Kowabunga]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I get you and in large part you're correct that football has become more international in the broader sense of the word. You couldn't see anything regarding other leagues 20 to 30 years back.  But what I meant is that we get all these players at once in one tournament. The Champions League doesn't encompass all players.

Barring some players going to China the concentration of established football talent in the UCL makes it a better pool of the top percentile OF players than the World Cup.

That said, if in the end it's the same, I am not sure the "redundancy" may be seen the same way from, let's say, the English perspective and the Senegalese one. 

[SirBalon]

27 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

Barring some players going to China the concentration of established football talent in the UCL makes it a better pool of the top percentile OF players than the World Cup.

That said, if in the end it's the same, I am not sure the "redundancy" may be seen the same way from, let's say, the English perspective and the Senegalese one. 

There are more than just interesting players in the Europa League and even teams that don’t habitually play in European competition. This is the great thing about someth like the World Cup for me.  But yes, perspectives are different from conti to continent. 

[Honey Honey]

What contintental or national perspective differences? 

There aren't any. The reason for the World Cup today is the same everywhere, where is it different? The features that have become redundant are not culturally specific but a fact that effects the chosen purpose and ideals of all involved. 

The World Cup no longer has the ability to be defined in terms of a footballing purpose.

[Azeem]

13 hours ago, Harvsky said:

What contintental or national perspective differences? 

There aren't any. The reason for the World Cup today is the same everywhere, where is it different? The features that have become redundant are not culturally specific but a fact that effects the chosen purpose and ideals of all involved. 

The World Cup no longer has the ability to be defined in terms of a footballing purpose.

So what should we all do ?