Most Influential Player on One Team

[Spike]

Just now, Eco said:

This has to be the case. They have way too much talent for Messi to be on this list. 

@Eco There is more to the sport than the central forward position. 

[Eco]

Just now, Spike said:

@Eco There is more to the sport than the central forward position. 

...I'm well aware of that. But a country with as much talent as Argentina has, should never have a player on this list. 

The most influential player, is typically a great player, from a small country with little to no talent. Bale would be the most influential player if Wales had made it, but I think Salah is Egypt's only reason for making the World Cup for the first time in almost 30 years. That's all I'm saying. 

[Marc]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

Aguero's ratio is irrelevant, otherwise you'd agree that Rooney is the greatest English footballer of all time that always delivered when it mattered, no? Stats are meaningless, Aguero is a posterchild of an Argentina generation that has failed to deliver on expectations. Romero, Mascherano, and Messi can't do everything, yet they usually have to.

Argentina are not coached well, the do not have a good culture surrounding national football, and their FA is beyond corrupt. Without Messi they wouldn't have even qualified for this tournament, or has everyone forgotten that Argentina were one game away from elimination in the qualifiers already?

How is a strikers goal scoring ratio irrelevant? It's not the whole picture but it's an important stat. Comparing goal scoring records in international football is irrelevant unless the players are from the same era, international football has changed a lot.

You've failed to acknowledge Salah's influence, do you now how far away they were from not qualifying? I've not doubt Messi is very influential, of course the second best player in the world is going to be very influential, i just think Salah (3rd best player in the world) is far more influential considering he would be replaced by nobodies. 

Salah has more goals for Egypt than everyone else in the squad put together. Sorry, goalscoing stats are irrelevant. 

[Spike]

Just now, Eco said:

...I'm well aware of that. But a country with as much talent as Argentina has, should never have a player on this list. 

The most influential player, is typically a great player, from a small country with little to no talent. Bale would be the most influential player if Wales had made it, but I think Salah is Egypt's only reason for making the World Cup for the first time in almost 30 years. That's all I'm saying. 

What!? Messi's influence is beyond a shadow of a doubt! This is egregious, it is like saying Maradona wasn't influential for Argentina despite them having players like Ruggeri, Valdano, and Burruchega. Messi is the captain, the playmaker, the finisher, the glue and identity that holds this team together, the formation is built around him, the reliance on Messi is beyond ridiculous. When elite forwards like Higuain and Aguero rely on Messi more than he relies on them, it is telling.

I think you are conflating 'influence' with 'they are shit without'. Which the latter even applies to Argentina! Because quality of the team isn't equable to club football. If it were the case England would have quite a few World Cups by now; you can wax lyrical about how Scholes, Lampard, and Gerrard were at the same time three of the ten best midfielders in the world but as history has told, a team can't survive with elite talent stacked in one position, especially when they all play in similar styles (goal scorers, late runs in the box, long-distance hollywood passing).

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

How is a strikers goal scoring ratio irrelevant?

Because ratio means nothing. It's an arbitrary stat used by people that can't see the forest for the trees. 0 of Aguero's goals for Argentina have been in the world cup. 3 of his 37 goals have been point winners in the Copa America, none in knock-out-rounds. There you go Marc, a little context to prove that ratio is ultimately nothing but a hollow shadow. https://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/aguero-intlg.html

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

Comparing goal scoring records in international football is irrelevant unless the players are from the same era, international football has changed a lot

Nobody has said anything close to this.

 

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

You've failed to acknowledge Salah's influence, do you now how far away they were from not qualifying? I've not doubt Messi is very influential, of course the second best player in the world is going to be very influential, i just think Salah (3rd best player in the world) is far more influential considering he would be replaced by nobodies. 

Because I'm not talking about Salah, you are. I'm talking about Argentina. 

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

Sorry, goalscoing stats are irrelevant. 

Yep

[Marc]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

Because ratio means nothing. It's an arbitrary stat used by people that can't see the forest for the trees. 0 of Aguero's goals for Argentina have been in the world cup. 3 of his 37 goals have been point winners in the Copa America, none in knock-out-rounds. There you go Marc, a little context to prove that ratio is ultimately nothing but a hollow shadow. https://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/aguero-intlg.html

Nobody has said anything close to this.

 

Because I'm not talking about Salah, you are. I'm talking about Argentina. 

 

 

Aguero's goal scring record look very good to me. What about the Egypt forwards that would replace Salah, you got a list of their goals?

You randomly bought Rooney and comparing him to other england players for some strange reason.

FfsTo decide the 'most influential player on one team' you have to consider other players, you can't just talk about Messi and Argentina, if someone comes up with a counter argument for another player you have to talk about that player also.

 

Are you the weird chelsea fan that said the blame was 50/50 with Alonso and his girlfriend that he killed?

[Cicero]

Who ever replaces Salah or the other attackers on the Egypt side are just as likely to score as much as Dybala, Higuain, Aguero, and Di Maria. 

It's pretty astonishing how many still don't grasp the fact that those 4 have been utterly unreliable for the national side. It's as if Argentina losing every game and not even scoring without Messi, along with almost failing to qualify, was a mere myth. 

[El Profesor]

On 09/06/2018 at 07:47, Harry said:

Really think you should have had Neymar in here. 

Not to say Brazil aren't great but i see them revolving around him more than argies do around messi.

I disagree. Brazil is a much more balanced team than Argentina. Willian always plays well for us in the right flank, Coutinho has built a decent understanding with Marcelo on the left and Gabriel Jesus fight for every ball upfront. And when Neymar was out, Douglas Costa had a good game against Germany. 

Argentina, despite the big names around Messi, is totally dependent on him. 

 

47 minutes ago, Spike said:

Argentina may be 'stacked' but look at their players throughout the last decade and a half.
Messi - prefers to play through the middle.
Tevez - prefers to play through the middle.
Aguero - prefers to play through the middle.
Icardi - prefers to play through the middle.
Milito - prefers to play through the middle.
Crespo - prefers to play through the middle.
Dybala - prefers to play through the middle.
Higuain - prefers to play through the middle.
Crespo - prefers to play through the middle.

Look at this talent that roughly occupy the same position in the pitch. That is enough to make anyone jealous but having nine players like that doesn't win anything does it? Argentina could have won in 2010 when they had elite talent outside of the central area (Messi was a RW at the time as well!) but the fat bastard did nothing to help that.

 

That reminded of that match against Uruguay (?) last year when Messi, Dybala and Icardi kept bumping into each other. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Marc said:

 

 

Aguero's goal scring record look very good to me. What about the Egypt forwards that would replace Salah, you got a list of their goals?

You randomly bought Rooney and comparing him to other england players for some strange reason.

FfsTo decide the 'most influential player on one team' you have to consider other players, you can't just talk about Messi and Argentina, if someone comes up with a counter argument for another player you have to talk about that player also.

 

Are you the weird chelsea fan that said the blame was 50/50 with Alonso and his girlfriend that he killed?

It's always about stats no? Stats are more important than what actually happens on the pitch. I guess football can be calculated nowadays and TV broadcasters should stop wasting their money.

Jesus wept.

[Guest]

It's like people completely ignored me and Devon Von Devon in that Egypt has built itself to be more than just Salah. Given Ghana's underachievement, it would have taken a huge bottle job for Egypt to not qualify out of that group, with or without Salah. It's not all about him scoring 5 out of 8 ffs, Egypt has other talent.

[Marc]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

It's always about stats no? Stats are more important than what actually happens on the pitch. I guess football can be calculated nowadays and TV broadcasters should stop wasting their money.

Jesus wept.

You make fucking pie charts to represent a players stats

 

On 4/10/2018 at 17:50, Blue said:

Here is another one. Saw this lad in the Generational Cup, that youth tournament the MLS hosted. I actually didn't know about his fitness since the game was 35 minute halves, so I put what I saw although that one could be wrong. However, he's a short center back. Tiny in fact, but he's surprisingly good in the air. Unbeatable with the impressive leap that he has. Very good at defending too. Downside is his attacking and ball control isn't great so he's very much a no-nonsense defender.

 

[Guest]

Just now, Marc said:

You make fucking pie charts to represent a players stats

 

 

So what are you trying to prove? That I find my professional ways to work? 

Stats for me are a last ditch resort if people don't believe you - like you with anyone on this forum. They are a backup to your main argument which is judgement. Overall though, it isn't the main thing that proves whether a player is good or now. Dani Guiza won top goalscorer in Spain over Eto'o, Forlan and Van Nilselrooy once, doesn't mean he was better.

[Marc]

7 minutes ago, Blue said:

So what are you trying to prove? That I find my professional ways to work? 

Stats for me are a last ditch resort if people don't believe you - like you with anyone on this forum. They are a backup to your main argument which is judgement. Overall though, it isn't the main thing that proves whether a player is good or now. Dani Guiza won top goalscorer in Spain over Eto'o, Forlan and Van Nilselrooy once, doesn't mean he was better.

Using a pie chart to show a footballers stats certainly isn't professional. There's a reason why nobody has ever used a pie chart to show a footballers ''stats'.

My girlfriend teaches primary school Maths and if her kids were asked to pick the correct type of chart/graph to show a footballers ability they would understand why a pie chart wouldn't be appropriate and the reasons why.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Marc said:

Using a pie chart to show a footballers stats certainly isn't professional. There's a reason why nobody has ever used a pie chart to show a footballers ''stats'.

My girlfriend teaches primary school Maths and if her kids were asked to pick the correct type of chart/graph to show a footballers ability they would understand why a pie chart wouldn't be appropriate and the reasons why.

You missed the point of that sentence entirely, but if you want to miss it thinking it affects me in any way making you feel complete, then that's up to you.

[Cicero]

@Teso dos Bichos Never knew you were a math professor mate 

[Guest]

Just now, Cicero said:

@Teso dos Bichos Never knew you were a math professor mate 

Threeway relationship between him, Teso and Storts. Its like what Ronaldinho has going on

[Spike]

Haha, that is right @Blue. FUCK YOU for having ambition to be a journalist and trying different methods of disseminating information. Haha, what a fucking faggot. You should kill yourself for being in love with the sport and having different ways of expressing your passion. Only a LOSER would be involved as a chairman of his local club, only  CUNT would put time and effort, in writing, creating, interviewing, and publishing podcasts, articles, and opinion pieces for free. FUCK YOU FOR BEING AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY INSTEAD OF POSTING SUICIDE EMOJIS.

[Guest]

Just now, Spike said:

Haha, that is right @Blue. FUCK YOU for having ambition to be a journalist and trying different methods of disseminating information. Haha, what a fucking faggot. You should kill yourself for being in love with the sport and having different ways of expressing your passion. Only a LOSER would be involved as a chairman of his local club, only  CUNT would put time and effort, in writing, creating, interviewing, and publishing podcasts, articles, and opinion pieces for free. FUCK YOU FOR BEING AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY INSTEAD OF POSTING SUICIDE EMOJIS.

According to Marc, all of that is a lie. I wish I could live in a such a distorted world that he does, where everything he believes is the truth. Sadly, life is not that simple.

[Cicero]

[Spike]

Just now, Blue said:

According to Marc, all of that is a lie. I wish I could live in a such a distorted world that he does, where everything he believes is the truth. Sadly, life is not that simple.

Keep creating, it's one of the most greatest things a person can do. I think you are on the right track because you create a lot of discussion. You just need to stop getting wound up by people. 

[Marc]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Haha, that is right @Blue. FUCK YOU for having ambition to be a journalist and trying different methods of disseminating information. Haha, what a fucking faggot. You should kill yourself for being in love with the sport and having different ways of expressing your passion. Only a LOSER would be involved as a chairman of his local club, only  CUNT would put time and effort, in writing, creating, interviewing, and publishing podcasts, articles, and opinion pieces for free. FUCK YOU FOR BEING AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY INSTEAD OF POSTING SUICIDE EMOJIS.

Do you understand why a pie chart wouldn't be a very good method of showing a footballers stats?  Chairman 

 

No need for the homophobic slur,

4 minutes ago, Cicero said:

@Teso dos Bichos Never knew you were a math professor mate 

Teso has many skills that you don't know of.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3EAUDcZrN8

the fuck are you trying to say, cunt

[Guest]

Just now, Marc said:

Do you understand why a pie chart wouldn't be a very good method of showing a footballers stats?  Chairman 

Again, you've completely missed his point, just as you missed mine.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Keep creating, it's one of the most greatest things a person can do. I think you are on the right track because you create a lot of discussion. You just need to stop getting wound up by people. 

I appreciate the kind words my brother, and that's exactly the approach I am taking. 

[Spike]

Just now, Marc said:

Do you understand why a pie chart wouldn't be a very good method of showing a footballers stats?  Chairman 

 

No need for the homophobic slur,

 

Teso has many skills that you don't know of.

Of course I understand why it isn't a particularly great method of disseminating information, but he is just visually expressing an arbitrary method of quantifying a player's game. He is out there creating, you're just criticising, not even constructively. Those that don't create criticise.