Most Talented Football Nations

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

And again. I'm not saying Messi is not talented or has no technique. That would be absurd. I just don't think he posseses the technique of Neymar, Ronaldinho and Maradona. He just knows how to execute his already high level technique to a better degree, which makes him a joy to watch. Better vision and reading of the game. You see what I'm saying mate?

 

I honestly haven't a clue what you are getting at. 

Also, I find the most important talent a player can have, is consistency. That alone has Messi piss over both Maradona and Ronaldinho. 

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Look mate, I know you, I know that no matter how many facts and how much reason is put in front of you, your pride won't let you admit you've made an error.  Everyone makes errors!  We all do!

Let's get back on point... If there are five nations of historical football talent to be written down, are you seriously telling me Argentina wouldn't be in the top 5?  HONESTLY?

They are, but this is current. I didn't think through the thought process well and kind of just posted it on the go 

I admitted my mistake back on page 1, because if it was historical I would be wrong. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

I honestly haven't a clue what you are getting at. 

Also, I find the most important talent a player can have, is consistency. That alone has Messi piss over both Maradona and Ronaldinho. 

Messi is more effective with his passing and dribbling than Ronaldinho and Neymar. More efficient and not just on the pitch to create a bunch of fancy plays that don't result to much.

[SirBalon]

Just now, Blue said:

They are, but this is current. I didn't think through the thought process well and kind of just posted it on the go 

I admitted my mistake back on page 1, because if it was historical I would be wrong. 

I said to @Azeem that it was current and then you made me look a fool by saying it was historical!  

Where do we stand on this mate?

You haven't really thought it out and it looks as if you started a thread you didn't know how it would turn out because of a few names in that Japan Korea talent pool and suddenly it's all gone pear shaped.  Ooooh Blue! 

[SirBalon]

Just now, Blue said:

Messi is more effective with his passing and dribbling than Ronaldinho and Neymar. More efficient and not just on the pitch to create a bunch of fancy plays that don't result to much.

Are we talking the circus or football here?

[Beelzebub]

4 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I honestly haven't a clue what you are getting at. 

Also, I find the most important talent a player can have, is consistency. That alone has Messi piss over both Maradona and Ronaldinho. 

Most important thing for any sportsman

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I said to @Azeem that it was current and then you made me look a fool by saying it was historical!  

Where do we stand on this mate?

You haven't really thought it out and it looks as if you started a thread you didn't know how it would turn out because of a few names in that Japan Korea talent pool and suddenly it's all gone pear shaped.  Ooooh Blue! 

I did make myself a fool, oh well. It happens.

Honestly if this was historical, Spain shouldn't be on the list either. Not just Japan/Korea. They've always had good players but never to the extent of Iniesta, Xavi and Puyol.

[Cicero]

6 minutes ago, Blue said:

Messi is more effective with his passing and dribbling than Ronaldinho and Neymar. More efficient and not just on the pitch to create a bunch of fancy plays that don't result to much.

So you are saying that because Messi is more effecient and hardly does any fancy plays compared to Neymar and Ronaldinho, means he's less talented...? 

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Blue said:

I did make myself a fool, oh well. It happens.

Honestly if this was historical, Spain shouldn't be on the list either. Not just Japan/Korea. They've always had good players but never to the extent of Iniesta, Xavi and Puyol.

I never said Spain should be on the list and I never even made a list.  It was Azeem who attacked me with Spain's inefficiency which isn't the question here and why I brought up the Holland argument on efficiency.  Spain has produced historical football figures and I'm not even going to go into the validation of Spain as making a top 5 historically per say.  Infact it doesn't worry me as I know my football although I do like to read and listen to other people's opinions and get into debate with them.

But what looked initially as interesting, it's now turned into a mish-mash of questionable madness.  As far as I'm concerned you wanted to make a thread about the present talent pool in Japan and Korea and then it turned into something that didn't have coherence or logic.

[Beelzebub]

@SirBalon I didn't attacked 

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Are we talking the circus or football here?

Like I said, I don't want to write a bible. But I'll try to explain as best I can. You know what I define as talent, but it's also important if you can maintain that talent in a 90 minute game on a football pitch and not just go on there and roll over. Aka: if you can beat defenders, create fancy plays without losing the ball in a matter of seconds, etc. Everything else like getting on the score or assist sheet, being consistent and effective is something else. It's a very complex opinion I have but I do believe that talent is only one step of many to become a good footballer. 

Maradona's and Ronaldinho's ability to affect the game on a pitch rather than just performing a circus show with rabonas and elasticos applies to it, but honestly to get the whole idea I'd have to write an entire book about it and you won't understand me entirely. You can easily say I am contradicting myself if I just write 2 paragraphs.

In short, being able to survive on a football pitch for 90 minutes and having technical capabilities for me is professional football talent. Mental strength and physique is something else.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I never said Spain should be on the list and I never even made a list.  It was Azeem who attacked me with Spain's inefficiency which isn't the question here and why I brought up the Holland argument on efficiency.  Spain has produced historical football figures and I'm not even going to go into the validation of Spain as making a top 5 historically per say.  Infact it doesn't worry me as I know my football although I do like to read and listen to other people's opinions and get into debate with them.

But what looked initially as interesting, it's now turned into a mish-mash of questionable madness.  As far as I'm concerned you wanted to make a thread about the present talent pool in Japan and Korea and then it turned into something that didn't have coherence or logic.

I was wrong on my historical comment. It's clearly not. I just didn't think about it.

The reason I included Japan and Korea is that you can assemble a squad with a lot of talent but innocence and weaker than others. Just look at the last World Cup with the former. They were up 2-0 against Belgium due to talent, and lost due to innocence. I'm not generalizing, it's just 1 example. They are talented, but it doesn't necessarily make them "elite".

[Dr. Gonzo]

37 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Indeed... There are political issues revolving much of football in the Middle East.  As you can see from my first post, I'm not disputing the passion in the area as I said straight away that there's no lack of that.  I'm arguing the obvious point with Azeem on what he (once again) is trying to push forward.

He cowardly bypassed the question of "obvious reasons for choosing Japan and Korea" by brining up some nonsense.

What I don't want football to be on this forum is balanced on anything other than the sport.  That means an agenda related to race or religion can stay at home.  Football is a uniform sport that doesn't have any of its rules adapted by either race or religion.

Personally, I think the best Asian sides are Japan (first), Australia (second, even though they're not really in Asia), and then it's close between Korea and Iran at 3. If you consider history, then it's something like Japan, Iran, Korea in that order imo - just based off the history of the countries. Korea's definitely got more of a presence on the world stage though as they've got more players abroad.

Most of both Iran and South Korea's success in international football is from the 60s and 70s imo though. 

[SirBalon]

@Blue

Your thread can be very interesting if we make it basically about the present talent pools in world football because that's something that is the here and now.  Something good to learn and to see what becomes of all that talent in the next 5 to 10 years.

As I said at the beginning... Doing a present one is hard enough because knowledge on young football talent being produced the world over requires a lot of scouting knowledge, genuine roaming scouting.  Stuff that's usually kept secret on the most part for obvious reasons by the scouts themselves and you don't see many genuine top scouts announcing who they're following for obvious reasons.

Going historically requires something even more difficult although I am pretty good on that one but I don't think (because I tried it on the previous forum) many on here will be interested because they tend to only care more about the present which is fair enough.

So... Bring us upto date on what you think talent wise, the world is offering us and which countries are doing best.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Cicero said:

So you are saying that because Messi is more effecient and hardly does any fancy plays compared to Neymar and Ronaldinho, means he's less talented...? 

Yes, but that's because I view efficiency and talent in 2 different categories. Like I said, a good footballer is made up of several steps. Messi has everything at a very high standard, hence why he's the best footballer in the world.

[Beelzebub]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Personally, I think the best Asian sides are Japan (first), Australia (second, even though they're not really in Asia), and then it's close between Korea and Iran at 3. If you consider history, then it's something like Japan, Iran, Korea in that order imo - just based off the history of the countries. Korea's definitely got more of a presence on the world stage though as they've got more players abroad.

Most of both Iran and South Korea's success in international football is from the 60s and 70s imo though. 

Australia has been horrible at youth levels in recent times if we are taking about talent pool right now.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

@Blue

Your thread can be very interesting if we make it basically about the present talent pools in world football because that's something that is the here and now.  Something good to learn and to see what becomes of all that talent in the next 5 to 10 years.

As I said at the beginning... Doing a present one is hard enough because knowledge on young football talent being produced the world over requires a lot of scouting knowledge, genuine roaming scouting.  Stuff that's usually kept secret on the most part for obvious reasons by the scouts themselves and you don't see many genuine top scouts announcing who they're following for obvious reasons.

Going historically requires something even more difficult although I am pretty good on that one but I don't think (because I tried it on the previous forum) many on here will be interested because they tend to only care more about the present which is fair enough.

 So... Bring us upto date on what you think talent wise, the world is offering us and which countries are doing best.

In terms of young talent, I think Japan does generate a lot of talent. I saw them in the U17 and have a lot about them. They just didn't feel geled and mentally weak like always. Despite winning the tournament, they didn't impress me much but I did see talent in there, and at the World Cup as I said, there was a reason they didn't roll over. The manager was able to make the most of it's talent. They just lacked a few other things that didn't make them contenders.

Colombia and Brazil are the top producers of talent on the continent. With the former, they fall behind Argentina because of the better mentality and higher standard physical training there as opposed to Colombia itself. And as for Brazil, they aren't that centralized and have so many people that they are able to consistently churn out talent. You also need to consider the samba culture.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Azeem said:

Australia has been horrible at youth levels in recent times if we are taking about talent pool right now.

Yeah, Australia is definitely not talented. They are just tactically strong and physically solid. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Azeem said:

Australia has been horrible at youth levels in recent times if we are taking about talent pool right now.

I really only judge youth players once they start to come through on the senior stage. Dunno why, there's no real good reason for it  - as far as the senior squads go, though, I think Japan and Australia are the 2 most talented Asian sides around though. After that it's close between South Korea and Iran. South Korea always bottles it against other good Asian sides, imo. I don't know if that's actually true, or if it's just something that happens when I watch South Korea. Iran always bottles it at the World Cup, only 2 wins ever in the world cup I think - and they're against the USA and Algeria. Hardly footballing giants.

[Cicero]

6 minutes ago, Blue said:

Yes, but that's because I view efficiency and talent in 2 different categories. Like I said, a good footballer is made up of several steps. Messi has everything at a very high standard, hence why he's the best footballer in the world.

Ok I think I understand what you're getting at, however I still disagree. That would make sense if you were comparing players such as Kante and Pogba. 

 

[Beelzebub]

@Dr. Gonzo You just gave an example by putting Australia second in Asia of what i meant by obvious reasons. Iran's record has been better than Australia for good two three years nowperfomed better against much better opposition at the recent world cup, performed well in youth levels but since Australia has more known players and since its Australia it will be put hiher than some other teams.  

[SirBalon]

To be honest, I think Australia over perform and they should really be commended for that. I am very ignorant on that side of the water where football is concerned so I may be speaking out of my arse, but I don't see Australia as being talented at all.  What I do see Australia as (Australians in general as a people) are very competitive and want to over achieve where they're not that full-on and where they're traditionally good, they want to totally pummel you when they've got good sides or individuals depending on whether it's a team or individual sport.  Football is really not their thing whereas other Asian nations have a much bigger passion for football and yet the Aussies compete against them which says it all really.

That's how I see Australian football.

[Beelzebub]

@Dr. Gonzo That's where being a rich country and having a professional setup helps converting that raw talent to its potential.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Azeem said:

@Dr. Gonzo You just gave an example by putting Australia second in Asia of what i meant by obvious reasons. Iran's record has been better than Australia for good two three years nowperfomed better against much better opposition at the recent world cup, performed well in youth levels but since Australia has more known players and since its Australia it will be put hiher than some other teams.  

I mean, it's much easier to judge the talent of players you know than the players you don't know - so it's not exactly surprising people view the side with more players they recognise as the better side.

[Beelzebub]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean, it's much easier to judge the talent of players you know than the players you don't know - so it's not exactly surprising people view the side with more players they recognise as the better side.

Yeah that were my obvious reasons, don't know how divided football on the base of race or religion