The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Dr. Gonzo]

By the same token the US pro-Palestinian protestors at Columbia University have been disgusting for their rhetoric and violence, the pro-Israel protestors that attacked the pro-Palestinian protestors at UCLA last night are also disgusting. Honestly, this sort of selective outrage for this conflict is infuriating to me. Oppression and conflict elsewhere in the world is routinely ignored... unless it's Israel-Palestine, in which case the world seems like it tears apart at the seems trying to lend support to one side or the other.

I can't understand why so many people feel the need to take sides in such an ugly conflict.

[MUFC]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

By the same token the US pro-Palestinian protestors at Columbia University have been disgusting for their rhetoric and violence, the pro-Israel protestors that attacked the pro-Palestinian protestors at UCLA last night are also disgusting. Honestly, this sort of selective outrage for this conflict is infuriating to me. Oppression and conflict elsewhere in the world is routinely ignored... unless it's Israel-Palestine, in which case the world seems like it tears apart at the seems trying to lend support to one side or the other.

I can't understand why so many people feel the need to take sides in such an ugly conflict.

Is it me or do protests for each side take place at the same location on the same day? Surely a rule to say that if both sides protest in the same city. They shouldn't be allowed to cross paths and they should be miles apart.

Another rules should be that if you want to protest. You have to be barefooted or wear flip flops.

[Spike]

8 hours ago, MUFC said:

Is it me or do protests for each side take place at the same location on the same day? Surely a rule to say that if both sides protest in the same city. They shouldn't be allowed to cross paths and they should be miles apart.

Another rules should be that if you want to protest. You have to be barefooted or wear flip flops.

Protesting is not really about following rules, my mate.

 

19 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

By the same token the US pro-Palestinian protestors at Columbia University have been disgusting for their rhetoric and violence, the pro-Israel protestors that attacked the pro-Palestinian protestors at UCLA last night are also disgusting. Honestly, this sort of selective outrage for this conflict is infuriating to me. Oppression and conflict elsewhere in the world is routinely ignored... unless it's Israel-Palestine, in which case the world seems like it tears apart at the seems trying to lend support to one side or the other.

I can't understand why so many people feel the need to take sides in such an ugly conflict.

There is always violence during protests but getting hyper fixated on the minority just leads to broader generalisation and then condemnation. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 hours ago, MUFC said:

Is it me or do protests for each side take place at the same location on the same day? Surely a rule to say that if both sides protest in the same city. They shouldn't be allowed to cross paths and they should be miles apart.

Another rules should be that if you want to protest. You have to be barefooted or wear flip flops.

That's not really free speech then if you're putting conditions on it. People should be allowed to protest and publicly voice their opinions without being violent idiots about things.

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

There is always violence during protests but getting hyper fixated on the minority just leads to broader generalisation and then condemnation. 

What the anti-pro-Palestinian group did at UCLA wasn't really a protest - it was a coordinated attack. They fired fireworks into crowds of people and also used "bear mace" (which I think is just very strong pepperspray, but I'm not sure) on the pro-Palestinian protestors.

It deserves condemnation. Especially when everyone involved is living safely in a country with no threat to themselves from Hamas, Hezbollah, or the IDF. There is legitimately no reason to bring the violence from this conflict to foreign shores by people so far removed from the conflict. And from two groups of people that largely can't even get the history of the region they're protesting about right.

I don't think "protests always have a violent minority" really excuses the idiocy and vile propaganda spreading to justify shit like a group of kids in uni getting painful liquid sprayed into their eyes and having fireworks shot at them for making a public political display that these people who attacked them agreed with. The police not getting involved with what happened at UCLA quicker and standing by and watching that happen, is an absolute fucking joke tbh. I think it's a bit different to the kids in NYC at Columbia University getting raided by police for vandalising school property after they took over a building.

At UCLA the victims were students, not a building.

[Spike]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's not really free speech then if you're putting conditions on it. People should be allowed to protest and publicly voice their opinions without being violent idiots about things.

What the anti-pro-Palestinian group did at UCLA wasn't really a protest - it was a coordinated attack. They fired fireworks into crowds of people and also used "bear mace" (which I think is just very strong pepperspray, but I'm not sure) on the pro-Palestinian protestors.

It deserves condemnation. Especially when everyone involved is living safely in a country with no threat to themselves from Hamas, Hezbollah, or the IDF. There is legitimately no reason to bring the violence from this conflict to foreign shores by people so far removed from the conflict. And from two groups of people that largely can't even get the history of the region they're protesting about right.

I don't think "protests always have a violent minority" really excuses the idiocy and vile propaganda spreading to justify shit like a group of kids in uni getting painful liquid sprayed into their eyes and having fireworks shot at them for making a public political display that these people who attacked them agreed with. The police not getting involved with what happened at UCLA quicker and standing by and watching that happen, is an absolute fucking joke tbh. I think it's a bit different to the kids in NYC at Columbia University getting raided by police for vandalising school property after they took over a building.

At UCLA the victims were students, not a building.

I didn’t say it was an excuse, I said getting hyper fixated on the minority section of violent protesting just obfuscates the overall reasons for the protests in the first place. It’s the same tactic used by the media to delegitimise any form of civil unrest, throughout this thread the discussion has never been about the protesting but rather the radical actions of some protesters. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

I didn’t say it was an excuse, I said getting hyper fixated on the minority section of violent protesting just obfuscates the overall reasons for the protests in the first place. It’s the same tactic used by the media to delegitimise any form of civil unrest, throughout this thread the discussion has never been about the protesting but rather the radical actions of some protesters. 

We all know the reasons for the protests in the first place. I think these people delegitimise themselves with their own rhetoric, personally, rather than anything the media does. I'm sure there's a large part of the protestors that have good intentions and are far from being absolute cunts, but they're lost in the sea of the rest of the crowd tbh. But for a lot of people this is tribal passion that arises anytime anything flares up between these two, rather than any legitimate interest in standing up for the human rights of oppressed people or standing against radical extremists.

And ultimately I think the impact of what these student protests end goals are (divesting from companies that have ties to the IDF... but are also companies like Microsoft) is minimal compared to if they were protesting against the Federal Government for turning a blind eye to Israeli war crimes and demanding the government step in to put restrictions on these companies. The impact of what they're calling for is some companies have their share price drop for a very, very, very brief moment in time... while these companies continue to do business with the people they don't want the companies to do business with... because surprise surprise - large companies don't give a shit about human rights when it comes to making money. The impact of actually calling for sanctions would be a lot more significant. But they can't even think to call for that.

Again, what happened at UCLA wasn't from a minority of protestors. It was a coordinated effort of people who specifically went to protests at night to kick off violence. And then the police were very slow to react, putting the actual protestors (many of whom I don't even respect, let alone agree with) in harms way.

I don't see how condemning violence aimed at protestors (many of whom I don't really have any time for) is delegitimising their civil unrest. The kids at UCLA were on public property that they're allowed to be on (and so were the violent zionists who attacked them) they had every right to have their right to protest protected. The police let down the kids that were protesting and weren't being violent.

The officers that night should be investigated for their slow response, and anyone who was arrested for the violence shouldn't be treated with kid gloves by the justice system is my point.

[MUFC]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's not really free speech then if you're putting conditions on it. People should be allowed to protest and publicly voice their opinions without being violent idiots about things.

What the anti-pro-Palestinian group did at UCLA wasn't really a protest - it was a coordinated attack. They fired fireworks into crowds of people and also used "bear mace" (which I think is just very strong pepperspray, but I'm not sure) on the pro-Palestinian protestors.

It deserves condemnation. Especially when everyone involved is living safely in a country with no threat to themselves from Hamas, Hezbollah, or the IDF. There is legitimately no reason to bring the violence from this conflict to foreign shores by people so far removed from the conflict. And from two groups of people that largely can't even get the history of the region they're protesting about right.

I don't think "protests always have a violent minority" really excuses the idiocy and vile propaganda spreading to justify shit like a group of kids in uni getting painful liquid sprayed into their eyes and having fireworks shot at them for making a public political display that these people who attacked them agreed with. The police not getting involved with what happened at UCLA quicker and standing by and watching that happen, is an absolute fucking joke tbh. I think it's a bit different to the kids in NYC at Columbia University getting raided by police for vandalising school property after they took over a building.

At UCLA the victims were students, not a building.

I'll fuck all their aunties up the arses.

[Spike]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We all know the reasons for the protests in the first place. I think these people delegitimise themselves with their own rhetoric, personally, rather than anything the media does. I'm sure there's a large part of the protestors that have good intentions and are far from being absolute cunts, but they're lost in the sea of the rest of the crowd tbh. But for a lot of people this is tribal passion that arises anytime anything flares up between these two, rather than any legitimate interest in standing up for the human rights of oppressed people or standing against radical extremists.

And ultimately I think the impact of what these student protests end goals are (divesting from companies that have ties to the IDF... but are also companies like Microsoft) is minimal compared to if they were protesting against the Federal Government for turning a blind eye to Israeli war crimes and demanding the government step in to put restrictions on these companies. The impact of what they're calling for is some companies have their share price drop for a very, very, very brief moment in time... while these companies continue to do business with the people they don't want the companies to do business with... because surprise surprise - large companies don't give a shit about human rights when it comes to making money. The impact of actually calling for sanctions would be a lot more significant. But they can't even think to call for that.

Again, what happened at UCLA wasn't from a minority of protestors. It was a coordinated effort of people who specifically went to protests at night to kick off violence. And then the police were very slow to react, putting the actual protestors (many of whom I don't even respect, let alone agree with) in harms way.

I don't see how condemning violence aimed at protestors (many of whom I don't really have any time for) is delegitimising their civil unrest. The kids at UCLA were on public property that they're allowed to be on (and so were the violent zionists who attacked them) they had every right to have their right to protest protected. The police let down the kids that were protesting and weren't being violent.

The officers that night should be investigated for their slow response, and anyone who was arrested for the violence shouldn't be treated with kid gloves by the justice system is my point.

Do we? I don’t know what the impetus to these massive protests were, I know what they are about but I have no idea the sequence of events that has brought this to fruition.

It’s not really the point I’m getting across your addressing. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve stated except merely this hyper focus on the extremists is limiting discourse and scope. Why do we only talk about fringe elements ?

[Dr. Gonzo]

26 minutes ago, Spike said:

Why do we only talk about fringe elements ?

Because they're the ones actively making things unsafe and doing all that they can to drive people who feel passion for this conflict to keep escalating their rhetoric and actions in support of "their side" in the west. And honestly how do we want to define "fringe" because honestly I think protesting over their university's role in the Israel-Palestine conflict is just worthless performative activism. Especially if you look at some of these schools' academic calendars - they've got more important things to worry about than taking sides in a conflict between two sides with little regard for human rights.

They've got a right to protest... but is it meaningful? Typically when people protest for things here, (the womans march, BLM, etc.) the location of the protests has been the federal building since the ire of protestors is directed at the federal government. I think if these protests were directed at the government trying to change policies and implement sanctions that can only be relieved if Israel refrains from committing war crimes and recognising the human rights of Palestinians... that's a worthwhile and meaningful protest. But this is kids trying to do something that in the grand scheme of things... hurts a company's shareholders for maybe a week or so... and in the process they're hurting each other, getting arrested, and probably fucking up their own grades because they want to take sides in a conflict between people who refuse to see the other as human.

I think if you just ignore the radical weirdos and don't treat them as serious threats, they just spread their radical weirdness and then the threats become much worse. Look at the far right weirdos all around the world that weren't taken seriously for a long time in the US and look how much the right wing of the US has shifted to extreme views.

[Spike]

41 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Because they're the ones actively making things unsafe and doing all that they can to drive people who feel passion for this conflict to keep escalating their rhetoric and actions in support of "their side" in the west. And honestly how do we want to define "fringe" because honestly I think protesting over their university's role in the Israel-Palestine conflict is just worthless performative activism. Especially if you look at some of these schools' academic calendars - they've got more important things to worry about than taking sides in a conflict between two sides with little regard for human rights.

They've got a right to protest... but is it meaningful? Typically when people protest for things here, (the womans march, BLM, etc.) the location of the protests has been the federal building since the ire of protestors is directed at the federal government. I think if these protests were directed at the government trying to change policies and implement sanctions that can only be relieved if Israel refrains from committing war crimes and recognising the human rights of Palestinians... that's a worthwhile and meaningful protest. But this is kids trying to do something that in the grand scheme of things... hurts a company's shareholders for maybe a week or so... and in the process they're hurting each other, getting arrested, and probably fucking up their own grades because they want to take sides in a conflict between people who refuse to see the other as human.

I think if you just ignore the radical weirdos and don't treat them as serious threats, they just spread their radical weirdness and then the threats become much worse. Look at the far right weirdos all around the world that weren't taken seriously for a long time in the US and look how much the right wing of the US has shifted to extreme views.

But I'm not saying that at all though

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

But I'm not saying that at all though

Then what are you saying? Because I've given an answer of why we talk about the extreme fringe group of people. And I'm not wrong, just days after the pro-Palestine extremists did something beyond the pale in NYC, pro-Israel extremists did something beyond the pale in LA. Otherwise, what else is there really to report on. "Students are protesting to get their universities to divest from companies that do business in Israel, universities say 'nah we're not going to do that'" - and that's basically the crux of the story there.

I think it's a much bigger story when you've got increasingly violent outbursts happening over a divide in opinions over a conflict half a world a way where violence is the norm.

[Spike]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Then what are you saying? Because I've given an answer of why we talk about the extreme fringe group of people. And I'm not wrong, just days after the pro-Palestine extremists did something beyond the pale in NYC, pro-Israel extremists did something beyond the pale in LA. Otherwise, what else is there really to report on. "Students are protesting to get their universities to divest from companies that do business in Israel, universities say 'nah we're not going to do that'" - and that's basically the crux of the story there.

I think it's a much bigger story when you've got increasingly violent outbursts happening over a divide in opinions over a conflict half a world a way where violence is the norm.

I know why we bloody talk about it, you just keep answering questions I never asked nor have disagreed with I have said this several times, I'm asking why is it the only thing we are talking about, not that we shouldn't talk about it. There are plenty of other things we can discuss like how police were ushering journalists away from areas for god knows what reasons, or how the president of Harvard gave a stupid answer to congress about genocide. Mate you could just tell me you aren't interested in the other stuff, that's all I'm looking for

You're having an argument with someone else mate

Edited May 2 by Spike

[6666]

People that protest against Israel's genocide are not the same as people that protest against critics of Israel's genocide. Let's not create this false equivalency. The latter, quite simply, are cunts.

[Dr. Gonzo]

33 minutes ago, Spike said:

I know why we bloody talk about it, you just keep answering questions I never asked nor have disagreed with I have said this several times, I'm asking why is it the only thing we are talking about, not that we shouldn't talk about it. There are plenty of other things we can discuss like how police were ushering journalists away from areas for god knows what reasons, or how the president of Harvard gave a stupid answer to congress about genocide. Mate you could just tell me you aren't interested in the other stuff, that's all I'm looking for

You're having an argument with someone else mate

Are the other things really noteworthy though? Police wanting to keep journalists away from seeing them do things that aren't legal is pretty common in the US tbh. I guess the president of Harvard being stupid is fairly noteworthy. But then you take a look at what's happening at some of these big name universities in the US and it really begs the question "have these schools let their standards slip?" I think they have, honestly. These students can't even direct their ire at the right organisations to direct their ire at... they can't be that smart.

6 minutes ago, 6666 said:

People that protest against Israel's genocide are not the same as people that protest against critics of Israel's genocide. Let's not create this false equivalency. The latter, quite simply, are cunts.

There's no false equivalency, both sides have demonstrated they both have plenty of bad actors in their ranks that have no interest in really furthering any cause other than promoting division. I suppose it's a microcosm of the views of the leaders of the sides actually involved in the real conflict. And the students of US universities have also demonstrated that regardless of which side they're on, they're not really great at protesting in a way that's actually going to effect the change they want to see.

Americans were less unruly during the protests over things that actually impacted the human rights of Americans: BLM & abortions. The passionate willingness for these people to fuck themselves over in the long run so that they can take a side in a conflict with two demonstrably evil sides half a world away is nothing short of insanity.

[6666]

How can a country be this much in another country's pocket? Going totalitarian for another country isn't something I've seen before.

 

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Are the other things really noteworthy though? Police wanting to keep journalists away from seeing them do things that aren't legal is pretty common in the US tbh. I guess the president of Harvard being stupid is fairly noteworthy. But then you take a look at what's happening at some of these big name universities in the US and it really begs the question "have these schools let their standards slip?" I think they have, honestly. These students can't even direct their ire at the right organisations to direct their ire at... they can't be that smart.

 

IDK mate I think it's pretty worthwhile discussing things like Jerry Seinfeld's wife donating to pro-Israel counter protesting groups. There is plenty of shit going on that isn't just people lobbing scimitars at each other.

[Dr. Gonzo]

37 minutes ago, Spike said:

IDK mate I think it's pretty worthwhile discussing things like Jerry Seinfeld's wife donating to pro-Israel counter protesting groups. There is plenty of shit going on that isn't just people lobbing scimitars at each other.

Is she donating the counter protest group that conducted the attack in UCLA? Because honestly, was a form of terrorism: unlawful use of violence & intimidation, against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Textbook definition.

Probably won't hear it called "terrorism" though in the media though because it wasn't brown people doing it.

[Spike]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Is she donating the counter protest group that conducted the attack in UCLA? Because honestly, was a form of terrorism: unlawful use of violence & intimidation, against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Textbook definition.

Probably won't hear it called "terrorism" though in the media though because it wasn't brown people doing it.

Couldn’t tell you mate, the details seem vague, the only thing we know it was for the UCLA counter protest. So even if it wasn’t direct, I’m sure some of it has made it’s way into certain pockets.

[Dr. Gonzo]

17 minutes ago, Spike said:

Couldn’t tell you mate, the details seem vague, the only thing we know it was for the UCLA counter protest. So even if it wasn’t direct, I’m sure some of it has made it’s way into certain pockets.

If it was for the UCLA counter protest, I think it's a good thing to look into and question for sure. People should know if public figures and their wives are funding domestic terrorism.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If it was for the UCLA counter protest, I think it's a good thing to look into and question for sure. People should know if public figures and their wives are funding domestic terrorism.

Seinfeld was fucking a 17 year old when he was 38.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Spike said:

Seinfeld was fucking a 17 year old when he was 38.

So is he a terrorist & a nonce, or just a nonce?

Either way, lock him up.

[OrangeKhrush]

On reading the Bill it doesn't make criticizing israel illegal, it clearly sets the parameter for what is construed as hate speech and what is free speech.  Referring to Jews as Zionists in the political version that has come up in the later 2010's so as to incite violence against Jews is pretty much a no no, frankly dehumanizing, demeaning and derogatory terms towards any group is hate speech not free speech. 

If the rules were reversed and Jews or supporters of Jewish rights said something about Palastinians or arabs they will be branded domestic terrorists and given 20 years.

I have said anti semetism transcends left wing and right wing, the left is self explanatory, but the right shows up religious nutjobs like Carlson, Knowles and the bible puncher brigade.

I have been talking about this for weeks now, there is a two tiered system, the reason why nobody goes after Russia after all their bullshit is because it will end up in dirty laundry becoming public, America, UK, France, Germany will all come under scrutiny so the idea here is to throw the little guy under the bus just to appease the mob.

 

It was 8 October and the world was running "if israel reacts it will be a genocide" line, it is made up, if israel wanted to kill every Palestinian they could but haven't,  Palestinians want to kill every Israeli but can't.   Genocide requires there to be a intention to eliminate a group entirely.  A UN former head of the ICC explained that the ICC did not state there was any proof of genocide only confirmed the risk in all out war.   

Have there been possible war crimes, it is very possible but there are war crimes on both sides, so palastine should be held responsible for their hand in it.

In the beginning of April a UN special council heard hundreds of mathematicians and statisticians provide issues with Hamas's numbers, it is important that Hamas lied about Al shifa bombing and the rape of woman so they have every benefit to lie, the data points used were found to be bogus, for instance every Male death is deemed on stats combatant deaths this is not true, palastine have over 3000 child soldiers(war crime), these are combatants not civilians,  Hamas cannot distinguish civilian from combatant deaths.  Needless to say that the deaths are high but it shows that there is a degree of control fighting an enemy that dresses like civilians (war crime) and fights inside a civilian populace (war crime).

I am very much for a free palastine but not one where extremists and there actions are normalized under this notion of resistance to jihad is bad.

[OrangeKhrush]

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/saudi-fitness-instructor-sentenced-11-years-prison-choice-clothing-and-activism

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is saying "Iran hold my beer" and sentencing women's rights activists to death or imprisonment, I dont see any protests in America about human rights but they sure as hell twerk for islam even though islam is completely incompatible with "progressivism".

 

 

[6666]

On 03/05/2024 at 14:08, OrangeKhrush said:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/saudi-fitness-instructor-sentenced-11-years-prison-choice-clothing-and-activism

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is saying "Iran hold my beer" and sentencing women's rights activists to death or imprisonment, I dont see any protests in America about human rights but they sure as hell twerk for islam even though islam is completely incompatible with "progressivism".

Hopefully one day countries that claim to be good aren't palling up with horror show leaders of countries like that of Saudi Arabia & Israel. Maybe those countries that claim to be good could start off by not having horror show leaders themselves and by no longer arming these psychos in their wars... Those dickhead leaders in Saudi are also trying to clamp down on criticism of Israel. Evil protecting evil.

And your last sentence applies to every religion when just judging by the book. Doing a whole "this religion doesn't, but the ones I identify with does" isn't the logic that works with anyone that isn't trying to feed their bigotry.

People, regardless of being religious or not, regardless of which religion they follow, can be progressive/conservative based more on how they've been brought, what they've learnt and who they've interacted with in their life. This is something that humans with at least an ounce of awareness know.

Also funny that you suddenly care about being progressive... Obviously you're not just playing that up to justify your bigotry. Hopefully you do care about unfair punishment of activists though and are against the mistreatment of the activists against Israel's genocide.

[OrangeKhrush]

13 hours ago, 6666 said:

Hopefully one day countries that claim to be good aren't palling up with horror show leaders of countries like that of Saudi Arabia & Israel. Maybe those countries that claim to be good could start off by not having horror show leaders themselves and by no longer arming these psychos in their wars... Those dickhead leaders in Saudi are also trying to clamp down on criticism of Israel. Evil protecting evil.

And your last sentence applies to every religion when just judging by the book. Doing a whole "this religion doesn't, but the ones I identify with does" isn't the logic that works with anyone that isn't trying to feed their bigotry.

People, regardless of being religious or not, regardless of which religion they follow, can be progressive/conservative based more on how they've been brought, what they've learnt and who they've interacted with in their life. This is something that humans with at least an ounce of awareness know.

Also funny that you suddenly care about being progressive... Obviously you're not just playing that up to justify your bigotry. Hopefully you do care about unfair punishment of activists though and are against the mistreatment of the activists against Israel's genocide.

Iraq has just made homosexuality and transgenderism illegal and punishable by imprisonment.   We keep seeing flagrant human rights abuses in a region that simply care about western liberties.   

In 2020 turkey aided Al Bashir kill Kurdish opposition to Al Bashir, because Istanbul branded the Syrian Democratic Movement a terrorist group, this is while turkey actively supports ethnic cleansing of Armenians.   

Of course human rights abuses only become an issue when Israel is involved and the reason the power nations dont challenge each other is because if one goes down they will open the dirty laundry of others.   If israel is persecuted the so must russia, the US, UK, Iran, Saudi, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Yemen, Palestine, iraq, syria, china, north Korea,  Myanmar, ukraine and France.

Not to sound cliche but war never changes and will never change no matter how much you try make rules.

The symptoms of the turmoil seen to be the only thing people attach virtue to without looking at causes and solutions.  Ariel Sheron ceded Gaza to the PA under the intention of sustainable peace, since then attacks on israel have gone from decades apart to yearly, in that time has there ever been any semblance of fundamental human rights in palastine? The answer is no, so if they treat their own badly then what prospect is their for peace unless there is a fundamental shift in ideology of Palastinians.