The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Spike]

Pretty bad choice to use homosexuality and transgenderism as examples of western liberty. Homosexual people have only gotten their rights in the last two decades, and transpeople are losing rights. 

And stop deflecting, people are constantly critical of all states with humans rights abuses, nobody is bullying poor little Israel and Israel alone, every country listed has been expressly criticised by someone one here, the only difference is that Israel is doing it openly and flagrantly, they don’t even hide that they created the conditions for Hamas. Human rights are always an issue, what a profoundly stupid thing to say.

Of course war has changed, fuck Fallout, there weren’t proxy wars fought in guerrilla urban environments in 1224, let alone 1924.

The cause is that Israel used worsening material conditions to create Islamists to fight against socialists and are now using the same Islamists as an excuse to engage in open warfare, it is remarkably simple. Israel engineered this conflict.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

[Carnivore Chris]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Homosexual people have only gotten their rights in the last two decades, and transpeople are losing rights. 

 

Where did they have more rights before that? The middle east? Uganda? 

Edited May 5 by Carnivore Chris

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, Carnivore Chris said:

Where did they have more rights before that? The middle east? Uganda? 

So barely scraping across the bare minimum finish line just recently is enough cause to gloat on the superiority of the west? Thank god we are so enlightened that we allowed homosexuals to the right to exist somewhere between rampart colonialism and massive material wealth gap exacerbated between the last 100 years of western interference. Immeasurable differences in wealth, safety, and technology, have allowed SOME people in the west to accept that homosexual and trans people are in fact people. 

I’ll let my trans family member know that they should be grateful of the discrimination and dehumanisation they face everyday in the west because they could be in Uganda or the middle east.

[6666]

8 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Iraq has just made homosexuality and transgenderism illegal and punishable by imprisonment.   We keep seeing flagrant human rights abuses in a region that simply care about western liberties.   

In 2020 turkey aided Al Bashir kill Kurdish opposition to Al Bashir, because Istanbul branded the Syrian Democratic Movement a terrorist group, this is while turkey actively supports ethnic cleansing of Armenians.   

Of course human rights abuses only become an issue when Israel is involved and the reason the power nations dont challenge each other is because if one goes down they will open the dirty laundry of others.   If israel is persecuted the so must russia, the US, UK, Iran, Saudi, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Yemen, Palestine, iraq, syria, china, north Korea,  Myanmar, ukraine and France.

Not to sound cliche but war never changes and will never change no matter how much you try make rules.

The symptoms of the turmoil seen to be the only thing people attach virtue to without looking at causes and solutions.  Ariel Sheron ceded Gaza to the PA under the intention of sustainable peace, since then attacks on israel have gone from decades apart to yearly, in that time has there ever been any semblance of fundamental human rights in palastine? The answer is no, so if they treat their own badly then what prospect is their for peace unless there is a fundamental shift in ideology of Palastinians.

This is you trying to justify Israel's genocide. Won't work. Your "If Israel's crimes are challenged, then so should everyone else's" statement isn't much of a defence. It's you saying "Israel should be allowed to commit genocide in peace".

Human rights are easier to come by without a violent occupier killing and oppressing everyone. So ending that would be a good start.

Thankfully there are fewer and fewer people just going along with governments that try to protect Nazi Israel.

[Danny]

22 hours ago, Carnivore Chris said:

Where did they have more rights before that? The middle east? Uganda? 

Uganda is not a great example seeing as the homophobic laws there are influenced directly by British Colonialism

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 05/05/2024 at 11:29, 6666 said:

Your "If Israel's crimes are challenged, then so should everyone else's" statement isn't much of a defence. It's you saying "Israel should be allowed to commit genocide in peace".

Yeah I agree with @6666 on this one. War crimes are war crimes, they should be challenged and some form of justice should be given to the victims of said war crimes. It doesn't matter who commits those war crimes.

The only good thing, and I mean literally the only good thing that came from the US coalition invasion of Iraq was Saddam Hussein facing some accountability for a fraction of his war crimes. And even then, it wasn't really enough - nor did any of the nations that were 10000% complicit in those war crimes really have to pay for what they'd done (in fact, ultimately in the end all they really did was destabilise Iraq enough to let ISIS be born...). So even in instances where there's some semblance of "justice" with regards to horrific crimes against humanity, it's often fractional... and never really comes close to bringing closure for the victims of these crimes.

And this minimal sense of justice being dolled out... it only ever really happens too when it's a country and/or person that has ultimately no sway on geopolitics. Saddam Hussein faced justice (for just a fraction of his crimes) because he'd lost control of Iraq and was found hiding in a hole in the ground. Or that guy from Sudan who's currently on trial at the ICC for his crimes in Sudan... he's only on trial because he turned himself in. So the circumstances where Netanyahu and IDF generals actually face some consequences for their crimes... it's just not happening.

Generations of Palestinians had their futures stripped away and have been consequently subject to some insane extremism that leads this conflict to be in the perpetual state of violence it's been in. The best time to hold a nation and its leaders accountable for its crimes against humanity is the second it starts happening - but if that's not possible, those crimes should be prosecuted ASAP while the living memory of those crimes is fresh in the memory.

Does the fact the US, Russia, and friends, have routinely gotten away with war crimes justify Israeli war crimes? No. Does Hamas not following the rules of war justify Israel not following the rules of war? No (in fact, Israel is a sovereign state - Hamas is a collection of terrorists with corrupt billionaire leaders; it's 100% reasonable to hold Israel to a higher standard than we hold terrorists to. Does the world staying silent on the Uyghurs in China justify Israelis and Palestinians trying to bring genocidal rhetoric to civil discourse on the world stage? No, it doesn't.

That others have gotten away with serious crimes against humanity is no fucking reason at all to turn a blind eye to human rights abuses. Israel shouldn't be getting a pass just because other countries with nukes got a pass. War crimes are war crimes, all human rights violations should be punished.

And honestly Netanyahu should be thankful that if he does face justice, it'd be at the ICC, rather than at the hands of the generations of Palestinians who's families he's destroyed and who's futures he played a part in stealing. But the chances of him ever facing justice are so minimal, sadly. Because countries that have nuclear weapons (or are good friends with countries that have nuclear weapons) routinely get away with their crimes against humanity.

But if the crux of the argument for Israeli war crimes being permissible is: we should only go after Israeli war crimes if we're going to take all war crimes seriously... it's just a shit argument. Yes, we should take all war crimes seriously. "You don't care about Hamas's own crimes against humanity if you want Israel to face consequences for theirs." No, I very much do care about Hamas's crimes against humanity and think they should face consequences just like Netanyahu and IDF leaders should.

We should take every crime against humanity seriously. We shouldn't just be picking or choosing what crimes are permissible and what crimes aren't because of biases we might have about a particular conflict. They're crimes against humanity - we're all humans. We don't live in a perfect world, but just accepting the status quo isn't going to make the world any better. The only way for the world to do better is if governments of the world start demanding a better world - and part of that is actually holding countries, even the richest and most powerful countries, accountable for their crimes against all of us.

Standing by and justifying the unjustifiable is how people lose their humanity and sends people on a slippery slope towards being violent extremists.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 hours ago, Danny said:

Uganda is not a great example seeing as the homophobic laws there are influenced directly by British Colonialism

Pretty sure he's giving those examples on purpose because they're famously places where rights for homosexuals/transexuals are horrible lol.

[Spike]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pretty sure he's giving those examples on purpose because they're famously places where rights for homosexuals/transexuals are horrible lol.

Uganda wasn’t homophobic or transphobic until colonialism. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Uganda

[Danny]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pretty sure he's giving those examples on purpose because they're famously places where rights for homosexuals/transexuals are horrible lol.

Yeah but I’m saying it’s a bad example because it was the British that introduced the levels of homophobia that we see today. And ironically any push to stop them from being homophobic only encourages it more as a lot of Ugandans just see it as the coloniser trying to control them again, so homophobia becomes a response to what they see as Western intervention 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Danny said:

Yeah but I’m saying it’s a bad example because it was the British that introduced the levels of homophobia that we see today. And ironically any push to stop them from being homophobic only encourages it more as a lot of Ugandans just see it as the coloniser trying to control them again, so homophobia becomes a response to what they see as Western intervention 

 

5 hours ago, Spike said:

Uganda wasn’t homophobic or transphobic until colonialism. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Uganda

Didn’t know that… but makes sense tbh

[Spike]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

Didn’t know that… but makes sense tbh

The UK is also known as TERF island by some people in the trans community. The UK has a very specific obsession with the topic.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia MBS has given his forces authority to kill the tribes living in the area where he wants his stupid "eco-city" in the desert to be. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68945445

[6666]

Israel continuing to be genocidal cunts. First going on a killing spree in Rafah where displaced Gazans went and now going back into Jabalia. Obviously using the excuse of "yeah Hamas.." to kill whoever they want. Then of course the cunt settlers in the West Bank freely terrorising Palestinians there.

Their murderous dickheads politicians obviously have the nerve to still suggest "they're on their own against the world" when the only reason they're getting away with this is because of their powerful allies in the West and in the middle east. The people in all these countries rightly hate Israel but the politicians there are in bed with the US so have Israel's back by default but of course Israel is still the ones supposedly fighting against the odds...

[OrangeKhrush]

The past few days have marked Yom Ha'zikaron or Yom HaZikaron LeHalelei Ma'arkhot Yisrael ul'Nifge'ei Pe'ulot HaEivah, the day of remembrance for those that fell in defence and victims of conflict.

It also marks the day of independence.

A good conversation between and israeli and a palastinian that ends in agreement.  Hope still lingers.

[OrangeKhrush]

On 09/05/2024 at 21:08, Dr. Gonzo said:

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia MBS has given his forces authority to kill the tribes living in the area where he wants his stupid "eco-city" in the desert to be. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68945445

11 years.

[MUFC]

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

11 years.

I think it's a bit fucked that their human rights abuses get overlooked by the West because they're 1.) paying western politicians - lobbying is just legal bribery; 2.) the West wants to encourage normalised relations between the Saudis and Israelis - so a blind eye to human rights abuses is turned. I think a part of that is because it will likely have some backlash in the Arab world and human rights abuses are what MBS uses to silence dissent.

Saudi Arabia's received a lot of praise in the west for "modernisation" of women's rights because they've allowed some things (letting women drive - something that Iran's had for... as long as there's been cars; relaxed restrictions on permissible clothing for women - and to MBS's credit, it's more relaxed than Iran - but they've gone from burkas and niqabs to being able to dress how they want only very recently)... but they've still got similar gender apartheid to Iran. Non-Arab minorities native to the country face systemic and violent oppression. Tribal people are treated like animals & as I recently posted, are getting slaughtered for happening to live where a ridiculous vanity project's proposed site is. Saudis abroad are subject to criminal charges for dissent (or chopped into pieces like that journalist).

It is not a good thing that such a wealthy country, with such disregard for human rights and human life, has so much sway over western politics. And the money they spent in cleaning up their image internationally among normal people has done wonders for them. Their involvement with sports entertainment: Newcastle, golf, F1, professional wrestling; their involvement with the general and social media: fox/news corp, Disney, meta, etc. - these all have an impact on how the public perceives them and how the media portrays them, despite these blatant abuses.

[Rucksackfranzose]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think it's a bit fucked that their human rights abuses get overlooked by the West because they're 1.) paying western politicians - lobbying is just legal bribery; 2.) the West wants to encourage normalised relations between the Saudis and Israelis - so a blind eye to human rights abuses is turned. I think a part of that is because it will likely have some backlash in the Arab world and human rights abuses are what MBS uses to silence dissent.

Saudi Arabia's received a lot of praise in the west for "modernisation" of women's rights because they've allowed some things (letting women drive - something that Iran's had for... as long as there's been cars; relaxed restrictions on permissible clothing for women - and to MBS's credit, it's more relaxed than Iran - but they've gone from burkas and niqabs to being able to dress how they want only very recently)... but they've still got similar gender apartheid to Iran. Non-Arab minorities native to the country face systemic and violent oppression. Tribal people are treated like animals & as I recently posted, are getting slaughtered for happening to live where a ridiculous vanity project's proposed site is. Saudis abroad are subject to criminal charges for dissent (or chopped into pieces like that journalist).

It is not a good thing that such a wealthy country, with such disregard for human rights and human life, has so much sway over western politics. And the money they spent in cleaning up their image internationally among normal people has done wonders for them. Their involvement with sports entertainment: Newcastle, golf, F1, professional wrestling; their involvement with the general and social media: fox/news corp, Disney, meta, etc. - these all have an impact on how the public perceives them and how the media portrays them, despite these blatant abuses.

Not really related, yet mentioning it since it left a nasty taste in my mouth and still does: Will probably never forget of the TV pictures, when the Saudi UN ambassador declared women would be allowed to conduct cars in Saudi Arabia from then on and all these ambassadors duely applauded like that would deserve praise.