The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[6666]

On 01/11/2023 at 20:57, Dr. Gonzo said:

By the way, protesting in the streets without fear of political reprisal or risking your life or well-being is a very western value.

If you don't believe me, go try to organise a protest in Iran or Saudi Arabia and let us know how it ends up.

Yeah but obviously people protesting for people that don't look like the majority race is different... that's not real protesting, that's foreign influence gone mad.

The best types of protests are the ones where the protestors are protesting against people with little power. Always fun.

[6666]

The Israeli government has been scum since its inception so it's not a real surprise that they're going full psycho here. They've always wanted to. They're delighted they found their excuse. What's surprising is the non-existent pushback from anyone in power. I guess that's what having the right allies does though unfortunately. You can go completely unchecked.

Have zero idea how any sane minded person can suggest they're the good guys in this. Israel has done a great marketing job in creating this nonsensical idea that judging Israel is the same as judging all Jews but how far can that stupidity really stretch? There's that and then there's people just viewing brown people dying as normal so maybe that insanity has them thinking Israel are the good guys. It's either stupidity or violent bigotry.

Either way, fuck Nazi Israel.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

Either way, fuck Nazi Israel.

Does anyone else think it's absolutely mad that, considering what Jews went through nearly 80 years ago, Israel has gone full circle and become a proper genocidal, Nazi-esque, ethnically-cleansing state? I know there are Jews that want themselves and Palestinians to live harmoniously, but it staggers me that Israel as a country can go through with the same actions as what some of their elder generations suffered from at the hands of another Nazi state back then?!

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Does anyone else think it's absolutely mad that, considering what Jews went through nearly 80 years ago, Israel has gone full circle and become a proper genocidal, Nazi-esque, ethnically-cleansing state? I know there are Jews that want themselves and Palestinians to live harmoniously, but it staggers me that Israel as a country can go through with the same actions as what some of their elder generations suffered from at the hands of another Nazi state back then?!

It's not that surprising tbh. Like I've said before, this conflict honestly goes on much longer than just the creation of Israel. Just look at this group Lehi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) - a militant group from the era of British Palestine that waged terror attacks on the British & Arabs in Palestine to try to force them out. They even sought out getting ties with the fucking Nazis.

And simultaneously, Palestinian leadership was trying to do the same thing to oust the British and the Jews - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini - and honestly I'm surprised Lehi wanted the British out as the British pushed Zionism massively while they controlled the territory, whereas I can understand it a bit more with the Grand Mufti al-Husseini... he was a bigoted dickhead, but he was reacting to how massively British rule was different for Arabs in the region compared to when it was under Ottoman control. 

But the more you learn about this conflict, you can look and see it goes back further than the Holocaust... and it becomes a lot more complicated looking than the Israeli government, Palestinian leadership, and any of the people going around try to get the general public to take one side of the matter. But you couple the fact that there's historically a huge element of extremism and terrorism that have marked this conflict for the past fucking century and since the mid-90s both sides have acted in ways that are deliberately against forming any lasting peace... and it's not surprising you've got Israelis more radicalised than ever. It's also why the Palestinians of Gaza are more extremist than the Palestinians of the West Bank, tbh. When you have a constant cycle of violence and conflict, it breeds extremism (look at Afghanistan, with their history of centuries of warfare with only brief periods of relative peace to verify that).

When you've got leadership on both sides feeding into that cycle of violence, you've got leaders that are committed to making the people they govern more extreme - so the conflict gets more genocidal. Neither party is blameless in this situation.

3 hours ago, 6666 said:

The Israeli government has been scum since its inception so it's not a real surprise that they're going full psycho here. They've always wanted to. They're delighted they found their excuse. What's surprising is the non-existent pushback from anyone in power. I guess that's what having the right allies does though unfortunately. You can go completely unchecked.

Tbf Israel relented to international pressure to allow aid into Gaza. They've gotten pressure from Joe Biden and other Western leaders to consider a ceasefire.

Whether you're pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian, though, if you're sane you'd want to see Hamas gone. They've done nothing for the people of Gaza but bring death and destruction. And to that end, I'm not sure a ceasefire will do anything meaningful - that's just not how Hamas operates. They always break ceasefires once they've built up enough rockets to resume the conflict. Their leadership, which isn't in harms way because they're holed up in a luxury penthouse in Qatar, has said it's not their responsibility to provide for the safety of civilians.

Israel is committing war crimes because of their indescriminate bombing campaign, but Hamas is also committing war crimes by using civilian infrastructure for military purposes and using civilians as human shields. Israel is getting incredible amounts of flak for the bombing campaign - and I think quite rightly because they've shown a callus disregard for civilian life.

But I don't think they can afford to let Hamas stick around otherwise there will be another terror attack like what happened on 7/10. So while I think airstrikes need to be pulled back pretty significantly and more targeted strikes and ground troop operations are more necessary... a ceasefire just isn't realistic for anyone up against a group like Hamas unless they release all hostages and fully surrender to Israel (which is also incredibly unrealistic).

The bigger question is what world powers do next after Hamas has been pushed out of Gaza? Israel should probably not occupy it or set up their own government of it - I don't think that will do anything to cause the cycle that needs to be broken to be broken. I don't know if a UN peacekeeping mission is realistic when the UNSC is the way it is right now and with the divide from Russia & China v. western member nations of the UNSC so bitterly divided. Perhaps some sort of independent ruling coalition from Egypt, Jordan, and the US can begin rebuilding the infrastructure of Gaza and set up a temporary administrative government until Gaza gets to a point where it is stable enough to hold it's own elections.

But of course an Israeli government led by Netanyahu would react by going full psycho to an attack from Hamas that can best be described as "full psycho" - and I'm sure that was by design. What Hamas did was of no benefit to any Palestinian, but it did throw a huge spanner in the works of the Arab world normalising ties with Israel.

[Redcanuck]

6 hours ago, 6666 said:

The Israeli government has been scum since its inception so it's not a real surprise that they're going full psycho here. They've always wanted to. They're delighted they found their excuse. What's surprising is the non-existent pushback from anyone in power. I guess that's what having the right allies does though unfortunately. You can go completely unchecked.

Have zero idea how any sane minded person can suggest they're the good guys in this. Israel has done a great marketing job in creating this nonsensical idea that judging Israel is the same as judging all Jews but how far can that stupidity really stretch? There's that and then there's people just viewing brown people dying as normal so maybe that insanity has them thinking Israel are the good guys. It's either stupidity or violent bigotry.

Either way, fuck Nazi Israel.

Let's examine  the term Palastinian , where and how it was used in history. It's as fake a marketing term as you will ever hear.  The Romans 400 years before the birth of Christ used it to describe a Roman province, it was an administrative term , not a nationality of the people who lived there. The League of Nations in 1922 gave Great Britain control of the area which they called the Palastine Mandate.  The British were mandated to create a Jewish homeland,  but they created Trans Jordan instead. Shouldn't that be the Palastinian state the Arabs pine for? After the Second World War the UN proposed a two state solution, Israel and Palastine for the Arabs who lived there,  who were predominantly Jordanians with a minority of Egyptians .  The Arabs rejected the idea of a Jewish homeland and attacked Isarel , they were defeated and lost the opportunity to create a Palastinian State.   There has never in history been a Palastinian state, hence no such thing as a Palastinian.

Now this is really where the marketing really kicks in.

In the early 1960s, the Arabs were not only getting their ass kicked every time they attacked Israel,  but were considered bullies of Israel in worldwide media.  So they hired the public relations firm of Dudley-Anderson-Yutzy in New York to change their image in the world. George Anderson told them they needed a “victim,” a group that would be perceived as smaller and even more abused than the Israelis, and the Palestinian cause was born. At Anderson’s advice, the Palestinian Liberation Organization was established on May 28, 1964. This is the start date of the “Palestinian cause”: 

How are Israel are the good guys in this you ask.   Isarel is the only country in the region that is an ally of the West and is a democracy.  Isarel is the only country in the region that treats women with dignity and treats minorities as equals. In Israel, Arabs, who make up over 20% of Israeli citizens sit on the Supreme Court, serve in the Knesset, go abroad as ambassadors. The chairman of Israel’s largest bank, Bank Leumi, is an Arab. Jews and Arabs work in the same factories and offices, play on the same sports teams and in the same orchestras, act in the same films, are treated in the same hospitals by both Jewish and Arab medical personnel, attend the same classes in the same universities. Jews and Arabs own restaurants and start high-tech businesses together. The only difference in their treatment is that Jews must, while Arabs may, serve in the military.”  very strange for a country that many claim is quilty of apartied.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Redcanuck

[Redcanuck]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

Does anyone else think it's absolutely mad that, considering what Jews went through nearly 80 years ago, Israel has gone full circle and become a proper genocidal, Nazi-esque, ethnically-cleansing state? I know there are Jews that want themselves and Palestinians to live harmoniously, but it staggers me that Israel as a country can go through with the same actions as what some of their elder generations suffered from at the hands of another Nazi state back then?!

I will repeat what I said earlier.

In Israel, Arabs, who make up over 20% of Israeli citizens sit on the Supreme Court, serve in the Knesset, go abroad as ambassadors. The chairman of Israel’s largest bank, Bank Leumi, is an Arab. Jews and Arabs work in the same factories and offices, play on the same sports teams and in the same orchestras, act in the same films, are treated in the same hospitals by both Jewish and Arab medical personnel, attend the same classes in the same universities. Jews and Arabs own restaurants and start high-tech businesses together. The only difference in their treatment is that Jews must, while Arabs may, serve in the military.

Doesn't sound like they are ethnically cleansing anybody within the state of Israel. Arabs in Gaza are being killed because Hamas is using them as human shields.

[Redcanuck]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf Israel relented to international pressure to allow aid into Gaza. They've gotten pressure from Joe Biden and other Western leaders to consider a ceasefire.

Israel is committing war crimes because of their indescriminate bombing campaign, but Hamas is also committing war crimes by using civilian infrastructure for military purposes and using civilians as human shields. Israel is getting incredible amounts of flak for the bombing campaign - and I think quite rightly because they've shown a callus disregard for civilian life.

 

 

Biden did not call for a ceasefire, he called for a pause, whatever that is.  A couple hour window to get aid in?  The People who pull Biden's strings and really run the White House have been adamant that Biden is not calling for a ceasefire.  This notice of a pause which nobody has said what it is, is just a cynical attempt to keep Arabs and Muslims in Michigan in particular voting Democrat in 2024.  If the Democrats lose Michigan in 2024 they probably lose the White House.

 

Israel's bombing is anything but indescriminate, It's actually quite precise.  The problem as you point out  is that Hamas are using civilian infrastructure and the citizens of Gaza to shield their military operations.  Israel can't send their ground forces in until the aerial bombardment softens up the Hamas military positions, to do so would result in too many Israeli deaths.  Israel also warns the civilians in Gaza when and where they are bombing.  They have dropped millions of leaflets, sent text  messages and made phone calls.  They also follow a policy of roof-knocking, the practice of dropping a nonexplosive or low-yield device on a target around 10 to 15 minutes before a bombing in order to caution any civilians present to flee, so as to minimize civilian casualties. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Redcanuck

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

Biden did not call for a ceasefire, he called for a pause, whatever that is.

https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=ceasefire 

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

Israel's bombing is anything but indescriminate, It's actually quite precise. Multiple bombings of a refugee camp with the hopes of getting 1 Hamas leader are not precise strikes. The problem as you point out  is that Hamas are using civilian infrastructure and the citizens of Gaza to shield their military operations.  Israel can't send their ground forces in until the aerial bombardment softens up the Hamas military positions, to do so would result in too many Israeli deaths. They've already sent ground forces in and have even sent forces into tunnels.  Israel also warns the civilians in Gaza when and where they are bombing. Not anymore. They have dropped millions of leaflets, sent text  messages and made phone calls. Yes they have done this, but they suspended roof-knocking after warning Gazans to go to the south. They then bombed the south, though. They also follow a policy of roof-knocking, the practice of dropping a nonexplosive or low-yield device on a target around 10 to 15 minutes before a bombing in order to caution any civilians present to flee, so as to minimize civilian casualties.  See previous response.

See responses in bold.

There's also the issue of Israeli settlers in the West Bank kicking off violence against Palestinians there yesterday, probably as a result of Hamas's attack on 7/10 - but the IDF isn't really doing anything to curb illegal settlements, nor to stop this violence.

Perhaps most concerning is the news that IDF soldiers are filming themselves abuse Palestinians in the West Bank - https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldiers-film-themselves-abusing-humiliating-west-bank-palestinians/; this is going to do nothing to facilitate peace or a safer Israel.

At worst, it's incitement to get the Palestinians of the West Bank to act out like Hamas has. At best, it's a bunch of bigoted kids in the IDF doing something stupid to make Israelis and Palestinians both have good reason to feel less safe.

[Redcanuck]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=ceasefire 

The Biden administration is down playing what he said, that they aren't using the above definition.   A pause to them it seems is not considered a ceasefire, but something lesser.  It may only be semantics,  but they are adamant it isn't a ceasefire he is calling for.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Redcanuck said:

The Biden administration is down playing what he said, that they aren't using the above definition.   A pause to them it seems is not considered a ceasefire, but something lesser.  It may only be semantics,  but they are adamant it isn't a ceasefire he is calling for.

I think that's just them stumbling over the fact there's a LOT of pressure from the international community calling for a ceasefire but also the US doesn't want to be seen as not being 100% on the same page as Israel with how Israel is going to approach the war.

A pause in combat is a ceasefire that's agreed to by both sides, so it doesn't really matter how the administration tries to make it stick.

But one area where I actually agree with Israel's government in their approach to the war is there should not be any ceasefire/pause/cessation in fighting with Hamas. The bombing campaign needs to be rethought because it is devestating the civilian population there.

Now that the ground invasion has begun and that Gaza City is fully encircled, now would probably be a good time for the IDF to demonstrate they have more capacity for humanity than Hamas does. This is an advanced and powerful military - that includes strong logistics and also the capacity to provide aid. The IDF could go a long way in showing they care more about the life of the innocents in Gaza than Hamas does.

It would be dangerous and risky, because of course at times Hamas would try to abuse the IDF demonstrating they aren't as inhumane as Hamas - but war is dangerous and risky. And Israel will never end extremism amongst Palestinians by bombing refugee camps trying to go after one person but kiling many more people who aren't Hamas fighters.

It's not beyond the pale to ask the IDF to demonstrate basic humanity in their fight against terrorism. It's not like the UK bombed the absolute shit out of Ireland while the IRA were actively commiting terror attacks.

[Redcanuck]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think that's just them stumbling over the fact there's a LOT of pressure from the international community calling for a ceasefire but also the US doesn't want to be seen as not being 100% on the same page as Israel with how Israel is going to approach the war.

A pause in combat is a ceasefire that's agreed to by both sides, so it doesn't really matter how the administration tries to make it stick.

But one area where I actually agree with Israel's government in their approach to the war is there should not be any ceasefire/pause/cessation in fighting with Hamas. The bombing campaign needs to be rethought because it is devestating the civilian population there.

Now that the ground invasion has begun and that Gaza City is fully encircled, now would probably be a good time for the IDF to demonstrate they have more capacity for humanity than Hamas does. This is an advanced and powerful military - that includes strong logistics and also the capacity to provide aid. The IDF could go a long way in showing they care more about the life of the innocents in Gaza than Hamas does.

It would be dangerous and risky, because of course at times Hamas would try to abuse the IDF demonstrating they aren't as inhumane as Hamas - but war is dangerous and risky. And Israel will never end extremism amongst Palestinians by bombing refugee camps trying to go after one person but kiling many more people who aren't Hamas fighters.

It's not beyond the pale to ask the IDF to demonstrate basic humanity in their fight against terrorism. It's not like the UK bombed the absolute shit out of Ireland while the IRA were actively commiting terror attacks.

The problem is that every time Israel has paused their attacks, the other side uses it to re group and comes back stronger.  They cant give Hamas time to catch their breath. Every time they allow or provide humanitarian aid to Gaza (and they do provide humanitarian aid out of their own pocket ) it is stolen by Hamas.  Hamas is sitting on tons of food, fuel and building supplies that they use for military purposes, while people go hungry, hospitals can't fuel their generators and the infrastructure does not get built or repaired.

Israel has said they have encircled Gaza City, but how clear of Hamas is the land south towards the Egyptian border?  Perhaps if or when that area is cleared of Hanas and the fighting has stopped, Israel will or could allow humanitarian aid in.  But they won't or shouldn't do it as long as Hamas has a presence there,

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Redcanuck

[Dr. Gonzo]

43 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

The problem is that every time Israel has paused their attacks, the other side uses it to re group and comes back stronger.  They cant give Hamas time to catch their breath. Every time they allow or provide humanitarian aid to Gaza (and they do provide humanitarian aid out of their own pocket ) it is stolen by Hamas.  Hamas is sitting on tons of food, fuel and building supplies that they use for military purposes, while people go hungry, hospitals can't fuel their generators and the infrastructure does not get built or repaired.

Israel has said they have encircled Gaza City, but how clear of Hamas is the land south towards the Egyptian border?  Perhaps if or when that area is cleared of Hanas and the fighting has stopped, Israel will or could allow humanitarian aid in.  But they won't or shouldn't do it as long as Hamas has a presence there,

 

 

I think the IDF would be capable of providing aid while simultaneously taking the fight to Hamas. There are enough sites outside of Gaza City where the IDF could set up safe camps for where people could go to receive aid. And the strong military presence there, as well as the 24/7 drone surveillance, would probably discourage Hamas from trying to fuck with those areas. I'm not suggesting Israel sends the UN/Red Crescent in with no supervision - I'm suggesting the IDF retains full control of any aid being brought in while they still hunt for Hamas, if UN/the Red Crescent/Red Cross want to go in and provide aid - I'd still think the IDF should retain control and be in charge of the security of the aid (and those that provide the aid).

It's not safe, but war isn't safe. And this isn't a "normal" war between two states. This is a war between a state and a terrorist organisation. Israel is a small country, but they have a very advanced military. Also now that Hamas has thrown the status quo out the window and Israel is going to be forced to take a new approach, this is a good time to push for a new approach that lets the IDF take on Hamas head-on while at the same time making steps to demonstrate they can fight without dehumanising Palestinian civilians and do something to stem the tide of extremism in Gaza.

I guarantee Gazans would be more inclined to work against Hamas and work with the IDF if they weren't all shit-scared the IDF won't just bomb or shoot them. And they're all shit scared of the IDF for a reason. And any Palestinians in Gaza that are unhappy with Hamas are also shit scared of Hamas because Hamas kills dissenting voices and targets their families.

It's an absolute shit situation for innocents in Gaza, and it's particularly sad when you think about how roughly half of them are children that were just born into this hell. They've got good reason to think that Israelis don't give a shit about their lives, they've got good reason to think that Hamas just views them as cannon fodder to die for Hamas' own propaganda.

I also think Israel, the US, UK, Germany, France, etc. can't ignore the role of Qatar and Iran in this destabilisation of the most unstable region in the world. Iran's already been largely cut off from the global economy - but Qatar enjoys a lot of benefits of being friendly with the west, while simultaneously sponsoring Hamas and providing their leadership with huge amounts of funding and safety. If blood is on Hamas's hands for all the dead Israelis and Palestinians since 7/10... that blood is also on Qatar's hands as much as it is on Iran's hands. Both countries should have to pay a heavy price.

And Hamas leadership in Qatar should be fair game for Israelis in this war. And so should the members of Iran and Qatar's government that facilitated this attack, imo. The EU, UK, and Canada need to finally add Sepah/the revolutionary guard of Iran to their lists of terror organisations. Qatar needs to taste the same sort of economic isolation as Iran for being a sponsor of state terror. It is a failure of the West if they do not punish the state sponsors of terrorism that have thrown the region into (more) chaos.

[Stan]

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 hours ago, Stan said:

 

 

Pretty awful if true. A lot is said of Israel's response not being proportional, which is true. But part of the reason the Israeli death count is much lower than Hamas's is not for Hamas's lack of trying, but because Israeli anti-missile defenses against Hamas's makeshift rockets is fairly effective. When rockets get through it's usually because the Iron Dome is overwhelmed. If the dome is just raining down on civilians... I assume Hamas rockets are getting through too. If not fixed quickly, this could be devastating.

It's a bit weird to see after the Russia-Ukraine war, where Russia looked woefully unprepared for an enemy like Ukraine despite being considered the 2nd best military power in the world. Or looking at how the recent conflict between Armenia & Azerbaijan was very much a war won by having superior firepower and equipment. Here we're seeing Israel, who have (at least on paper) one of the most impressive and technically advanced militaries. They're up against Hamas, a terror group that does have outside funding - but comparatively, not much funding, not much training, they're under blockade so their equipment is pretty basic in comparison. And despite the devastation of Israel's air campaign, it does sound like they're struggling a bit on the ground campaign despite having several advantages.

And honestly, since 7/10, we've seen lots of examples of weird military failures. The attack by Hamas itself - Israel's military was completely unprepared. You see footage of Hamas fighters taking IDF soldiers captive and they're literally in their underpants when they're being taken prisoner. How were they unprepared and so overwhelmed by this attack? They've got these advanced tanks they've hyped up for their ability to detect and stop rockets. Turns out the way Hamas has figured to defeat these is to shoot 2 rockets at the same time and the tank will only stop one of them. IDF casualties have been pretty high in the ground invasion of Gaza. Now this footage of the Iron Dome failures, which tbh are catastrophic because that's protecting civilian life.

And I think considering how much civilian life this conflict has already cost... it's just incredibly sad to see even more Arabs and Jews dying because a bunch of weirdos are too bigoted and stupid to want to make peace.

That's not to say the IDF are struggling to meet their objectives though. They've destroyed a lot of tunnels beneath Gaza and they've cut Gaza city in 2 after fully encircling it. But I think I'm just a bit surprised how difficult it is for them compared to other recent instances of modern combat where the technologically advanced army tends to fare much better. I suppose it's also different when you've got an enemy that's got nowhere to run and sees only two possible outcomes: victory or martyrdom.

[MUFC]

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

 

I mean, I hate Ben Shapiro... but at the same time - in the rebuttal of the first point, calling the Hamas human shields claim "baseless" - it's not exactly baseless at all is it? Hamas has been pretty open about the fact they use civilians as human shields, they've said they don't see themselves as responsible for the civilians of Gaza.

I think a better argument to be made is Israel knows full well that the vast majority of the casualties to their attacks on Hamas are going to be civilians - but they're willing to kill however many innocent Palestinians as it takes to get just one guilty Palestinian.

I fully agree with the second point - saying "free Palestine" by itself is not a call to genocide. Saying "gas the Jews" is a call for genocide. Trying to equate the 2 is only possible because of so many bigots going to Palestinian rallies and chanting calls for genocide alongside calls for Palestinian freedom - this leads people in this era of absolute lack of nuance that social media has brought us to conflate all pro-Palestinians as anti-Jew.

I agree on the 3rd point a bit. But tbh, Shapiro does have a point that Palestinian leadership hasn't been serious about wanting peace. He's absolutely ignoring that Israel since 1995 has also not been serious about wanting peace. The reality is that for the last 2 decades now, Israeli and Palestinian leadership have been stoking the flames of extremism for their own political benefit - at the cost of better lives for Israelis and Palestinians.

The 4th point I think is trickier. When you've got groups like Houthis and Hamas that have explicitly stated their goal is to kill all the Jews, it's hard to say that the extremists - who do have quite a bit of power politically, as we can see, aren't looking at the idea of wiping out Jews and thinking it's a good idea. Hamas and the Houthis of Yemen explicitly say they want to kill Jews - not just Jews in Israel... but all Jews around the world. 

But he's not wrong that Ben Shapiro is a lazy propagandist that just throws out statements from better propagandists in order to try to get his wide base of people who aren't very good at thinking to just parrot back that propaganda whenever someone presses them. It blows my mind that people like and respect the guy, he's an absolute joke.

[MUFC]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean, I hate Ben Shapiro... but at the same time - in the rebuttal of the first point, calling the Hamas human shields claim "baseless" - it's not exactly baseless at all is it? Hamas has been pretty open about the fact they use civilians as human shields, they've said they don't see themselves as responsible for the civilians of Gaza.

I think a better argument to be made is Israel knows full well that the vast majority of the casualties to their attacks on Hamas are going to be civilians - but they're willing to kill however many innocent Palestinians as it takes to get just one guilty Palestinian.

I fully agree with the second point - saying "free Palestine" by itself is not a call to genocide. Saying "gas the Jews" is a call for genocide. Trying to equate the 2 is only possible because of so many bigots going to Palestinian rallies and chanting calls for genocide alongside calls for Palestinian freedom - this leads people in this era of absolute lack of nuance that social media has brought us to conflate all pro-Palestinians as anti-Jew.

I agree on the 3rd point a bit. But tbh, Shapiro does have a point that Palestinian leadership hasn't been serious about wanting peace. He's absolutely ignoring that Israel since 1995 has also not been serious about wanting peace. The reality is that for the last 2 decades now, Israeli and Palestinian leadership have been stoking the flames of extremism for their own political benefit - at the cost of better lives for Israelis and Palestinians.

The 4th point I think is trickier. When you've got groups like Houthis and Hamas that have explicitly stated their goal is to kill all the Jews, it's hard to say that the extremists - who do have quite a bit of power politically, as we can see, aren't looking at the idea of wiping out Jews and thinking it's a good idea. Hamas and the Houthis of Yemen explicitly say they want to kill Jews - not just Jews in Israel... but all Jews around the world. 

But he's not wrong that Ben Shapiro is a lazy propagandist that just throws out statements from better propagandists in order to try to get his wide base of people who aren't very good at thinking to just parrot back that propaganda whenever someone presses them. It blows my mind that people like and respect the guy, he's an absolute joke.

Oh Ben.

[Redcanuck]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean, I hate Ben Shapiro... but at the same time - in the rebuttal of the first point, calling the Hamas human shields claim "baseless" - it's not exactly baseless at all is it? Hamas has been pretty open about the fact they use civilians as human shields, they've said they don't see themselves as responsible for the civilians of Gaza.

I think a better argument to be made is Israel knows full well that the vast majority of the casualties to their attacks on Hamas are going to be civilians - but they're willing to kill however many innocent Palestinians as it takes to get just one guilty Palestinian.

I fully agree with the second point - saying "free Palestine" by itself is not a call to genocide. Saying "gas the Jews" is a call for genocide. Trying to equate the 2 is only possible because of so many bigots going to Palestinian rallies and chanting calls for genocide alongside calls for Palestinian freedom - this leads people in this era of absolute lack of nuance that social media has brought us to conflate all pro-Palestinians as anti-Jew.

I agree on the 3rd point a bit. But tbh, Shapiro does have a point that Palestinian leadership hasn't been serious about wanting peace. He's absolutely ignoring that Israel since 1995 has also not been serious about wanting peace. The reality is that for the last 2 decades now, Israeli and Palestinian leadership have been stoking the flames of extremism for their own political benefit - at the cost of better lives for Israelis and Palestinians.

The 4th point I think is trickier. When you've got groups like Houthis and Hamas that have explicitly stated their goal is to kill all the Jews, it's hard to say that the extremists - who do have quite a bit of power politically, as we can see, aren't looking at the idea of wiping out Jews and thinking it's a good idea. Hamas and the Houthis of Yemen explicitly say they want to kill Jews - not just Jews in Israel... but all Jews around the world. 

But he's not wrong that Ben Shapiro is a lazy propagandist that just throws out statements from better propagandists in order to try to get his wide base of people who aren't very good at thinking to just parrot back that propaganda whenever someone presses them. It blows my mind that people like and respect the guy, he's an absolute joke.

It's not the free Palastine that is the problem, it's adding from the " river to the sea"  that implies to many  the destruction of Israel, because that is presicly where Israel is located.  It's the history of the chant that's the problem , its was first used  in the early 60's to mean the creation of a Palastinian state in the League of Nations Palastine Manadate and the removing of  the Jewish population in that area. While some people say they have a different meaning, you can't ignore where the orginal phrase came from.

[Redcanuck]

14 hours ago, Stan said:

 

 

I haven't seen any of the Western media pick this up yet, it seems to be all coming from the Arab World

[Redcanuck]

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pretty awful if true. A lot is said of Israel's response not being proportional, which is true. But part of the reason the Israeli death count is much lower than Hamas's is not for Hamas's lack of trying, but because Israeli anti-missile defenses against Hamas's makeshift rockets is fairly effective. When rockets get through it's usually because the Iron Dome is overwhelmed. If the dome is just raining down on civilians... I assume Hamas rockets are getting through too. If not fixed quickly, this could be devastating.

It's a bit weird to see after the Russia-Ukraine war, where Russia looked woefully unprepared for an enemy like Ukraine despite being considered the 2nd best military power in the world. Or looking at how the recent conflict between Armenia & Azerbaijan was very much a war won by having superior firepower and equipment. Here we're seeing Israel, who have (at least on paper) one of the most impressive and technically advanced militaries. They're up against Hamas, a terror group that does have outside funding - but comparatively, not much funding, not much training, they're under blockade so their equipment is pretty basic in comparison. And despite the devastation of Israel's air campaign, it does sound like they're struggling a bit on the ground campaign despite having several advantages.

And honestly, since 7/10, we've seen lots of examples of weird military failures. The attack by Hamas itself - Israel's military was completely unprepared. You see footage of Hamas fighters taking IDF soldiers captive and they're literally in their underpants when they're being taken prisoner. How were they unprepared and so overwhelmed by this attack? They've got these advanced tanks they've hyped up for their ability to detect and stop rockets. Turns out the way Hamas has figured to defeat these is to shoot 2 rockets at the same time and the tank will only stop one of them. IDF casualties have been pretty high in the ground invasion of Gaza. Now this footage of the Iron Dome failures, which tbh are catastrophic because that's protecting civilian life.

And I think considering how much civilian life this conflict has already cost... it's just incredibly sad to see even more Arabs and Jews dying because a bunch of weirdos are too bigoted and stupid to want to make peace.

That's not to say the IDF are struggling to meet their objectives though. They've destroyed a lot of tunnels beneath Gaza and they've cut Gaza city in 2 after fully encircling it. But I think I'm just a bit surprised how difficult it is for them compared to other recent instances of modern combat where the technologically advanced army tends to fare much better. I suppose it's also different when you've got an enemy that's got nowhere to run and sees only two possible outcomes: victory or martyrdom.

Have the IDF casualties been high?  I have heard 30 dead and 260 wounded.   I don't think the IDF is struggling to meet their objectives. They have cut Gaza in half and have it fully encircled.  Hamas can't escape, they are trying to hide their wounded soldiers in civilian ambulances, they now they have to surrender or die. The reason it may seem slow going because Hamas is hiding underground.  It takes time to clean out these tunnels, they are long, they snake back and forth and they are full of booby traps. No amount of modern equipment really helps here, it's just dangerous close encounter fighting.  The Israelis have even sent attack dogs down the tunnels to root Hamas out. The IDF is methodological destroying these tunnels one by one, it's getting done,  but it takes time.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Redcanuck said:

Have the IDF casualties been high?  I have heard 30 dead and 260 wounded.   I don't think the IDF is struggling to meet their objectives. They have cut Gaza in half and have it fully encircled.  Hamas can't escape, they are trying to hide their wounded soldiers in civilian ambulances, they now they have to surrender or die. The reason it may seem slow going because Hamas is hiding underground.  It takes time to clean out these tunnels, they are long, they snake back and forth and they are full of booby traps. No amount of modern equipment really helps here, it's just dangerous close encounter fighting.  The Israelis have even sent attack dogs down the tunnels to root Hamas out. The IDF is methodological destroying these tunnels one by one, it's getting done,  but it takes time.

 

That's 290 casualties - because the wounded still count as casualties I believe, which is still a lot for the IDF considering they haven't been in Gaza for too long. They use robots/drones to go into the tunnels first to clear out booby traps - so modern equipment absolutely helps. And yes, they send dogs down the tunnels to to root them out.

Israel will absolutely defeat Hamas, and they've got the benefit of being able to hold back a bit and going back to airstrikes and artillery fire if the IDF gets bogged down. Just a question of how long it's going to take and what's going to happen next, really.

[Redcanuck]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's 290 casualties - because the wounded still count as casualties I believe, which is still a lot for the IDF considering they haven't been in Gaza for too long. They use robots/drones to go into the tunnels first to clear out booby traps - so modern equipment absolutely helps. And yes, they send dogs down the tunnels to to root them out.

Israel will absolutely defeat Hamas, and they've got the benefit of being able to hold back a bit and going back to airstrikes and artillery fire if the IDF gets bogged down. Just a question of how long it's going to take and what's going to happen next, really.

 Netanyahu  said months.  I suspect they wil clear out North Gaza completely.  Then they may even have that pause.  They they will move into South Gaza and go tunnel to tunnel til Hamas is eradicated.

[6666]

1 hour ago, Redcanuck said:

Have the IDF casualties been high?

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it. That terrorist organisation is having the time of its life. They've been waiting their whole existence for this opportunity to commit genocide.

Edited November 7, 2023 by 6666

[MUFC]

https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-doctors-letter