The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Dr. Gonzo]

13 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Woo, wwoo, woo. About 6 Mio Jews, 250k disabled persons, 250k Sinti and Roma, 750k German political opponents, and 125k so called asocials beg forcibly to differ, here.

Yeah what he said is simply insane imo. If the Nazis had as much time as Israel’s been around (and imo committing loads of human rights violations in the process)… so multiple decades vs however long the Nazis were around… there’s almost no doubt many ethnicities would probably have been totally erased from Europe.

There’s ways to recognise Israel have commit atrocities without making a comparison that really fails to recognise the scale of how the Nazis went about mass killing.

Honestly if anything it’s more close to how America treated the natives, with reservations and forced relocations and slowly stealing more and more land as years pass.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

Nazi Israel continuing to intentionally kill civilians and also ramping up their attacks on UN peacekeepers. This is what happens when there are no repercussions for a psychotic nation. Hitler could have only dreamed about this level of freedom to kill.

Absolutely delusional comments. The Nazis accomplished the murder of over six million people ranging from Roma, Jews, LGBTQ, and political dissenters; nearly in it's entirety in less than the calendar year of 1942.

If we are loose with numbers round the victims down to 5,000,000 and lengthen the time span to 365 days, the Nazi murdered 13,698 people a day, which would eclipse the entire deaths on both sides of this war in less than a week, and still eclipsing the death totals since 1948 in two weeks. The downplaying of the Holocaust is truly shocking, and even the comparing of two events is 1. and injustice towards the victims of the Holocaust, 2. is reductive and an injustice towards the people of Palestine; why does the suffering of Palestine have to be benchmarked against the Holocaust and not speak for itself?

Edited October 13 by Spike

[6666]

Nazi Israel finally takes a small hit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dy294gweyo

Hopefully there's more repercussions coming the way of the IDF terrorists.

[Azeem]

 

[6666]

How did anyone ever support these animals and how do people continue to support these animals?

 

[Azeem]

Let's do a poll to settle this once and for all

Who do you think is in the driver's seat in what is happening in Middle East and is about to happen ?

A. U.S and its various actors, they only use Israel as a conduit for their own goals

B. Israel, they use their lobby channels to make U.S follow policies that are even detrimental to America itself

C. It's not that simple, both pursue their own goals which sometimes align sometimes don't like any geopolitics

D. Who cares ? focus on bright sides of the world. Go and touch some grass

[Dr. Gonzo]

13 hours ago, Azeem said:

Let's do a poll to settle this once and for all

Who do you think is in the driver's seat in what is happening in Middle East and is about to happen ?

A. U.S and its various actors, they only use Israel as a conduit for their own goals

B. Israel, they use their lobby channels to make U.S follow policies that are even detrimental to America itself

C. It's not that simple, both pursue their own goals which sometimes align sometimes don't like any geopolitics

D. Who cares ? focus on bright sides of the world. Go and touch some grass

E. Saudi Arabia

[OrangeKhrush]

Sinwar may be dead,  haven't seen a full confirmation on it but all signs are pointing to yes.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

When you go full anti semite and show off your flair to the world.   

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

When you go full anti semite and show off your flair to the world.   

So New Jersey got bored with its geographical position and moved to the Middle East?

[Dr. Gonzo]

29 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

So New Jersey got bored with its geographical position and moved to the Middle East?

I don't think there's any doubt that of pro-Palestine propagandists have been targeting low info people to try to get drone-like support for their cause. This person's been so taken in by it she's a million miles away from the conflict in complete safety, harassing a Greek restaurant for... it's display of Greek flag decorations.

In another reality where people aren't fighting for the hearts and minds of westerners to have blind pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian support, you don't get some idiot pumped full of this shit to the point where seeing any flag with blue and white on it sends her into a rage.

Honestly, the global reach of this shit scares me. People are right to be concerned about human rights abuses. They aren't right to be so worked up about a conflict that has existed since before they were born and will most likely continue to exist well after we die (because the internatinoal community persists with letting Israel and Palestine try to handle this themselves, while they have no regard for each others humanity) to the point where they start dragging in other immigrant communities into this shit.

There's people around the west baying for war between Israel and Iran on behalf of the Palestinians or Israelis - knowing that at the end of the day they'll be safe in their homes in Johannesburg, London, or wherever and it'll be other people dying for the cause they so passionately support from a million miles away.

And that shit doesn't happen without the Israeli and Palestinian propaganda machines churning away every day trying to win over the "hearts and minds" of the west.

[OrangeKhrush]

44 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

So New Jersey got bored with its geographical position and moved to the Middle East?

They hate so much yet the don't know the difference between an Israeli and Greek flag,  as Gonzo said,  low IQ NPC's are prime hate material. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Sinwar's dead

[Dr. Gonzo]

13 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

They hate so much yet the don't know the difference between an Israeli and Greek flag,  as Gonzo said,  low IQ NPC's are prime hate material. 

I didn't call them "low IQ NPCs" - they just have a limited amount of information they're working with, not that they're irredeemably stupid or "NPCs".

Most people aren't going to be up to speed with the history of the region, most people aren't even up to speed with the history of their own countries. It's one reason why propaganda is so effective, it's targeting people that don't have anywhere near of an idea of what the full picture of the situation is and then filling their head with bullshit.

Both sides are guilty of weaponising low info westerners for support, just like both sides are guilty of horrific human rights abuses.

[OrangeKhrush]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think there's any doubt that of pro-Palestine propagandists have been targeting low info people to try to get drone-like support for their cause. This person's been so taken in by it she's a million miles away from the conflict in complete safety, harassing a Greek restaurant for... it's display of Greek flag decorations.

In another reality where people aren't fighting for the hearts and minds of westerners to have blind pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian support, you don't get some idiot pumped full of this shit to the point where seeing any flag with blue and white on it sends her into a rage.

Honestly, the global reach of this shit scares me. People are right to be concerned about human rights abuses. They aren't right to be so worked up about a conflict that has existed since before they were born and will most likely continue to exist well after we die (because the internatinoal community persists with letting Israel and Palestine try to handle this themselves, while they have no regard for each others humanity) to the point where they start dragging in other immigrant communities into this shit.

There's people around the west baying for war between Israel and Iran on behalf of the Palestinians or Israelis - knowing that at the end of the day they'll be safe in their homes in Johannesburg, London, or wherever and it'll be other people dying for the cause they so passionately support from a million miles away.

And that shit doesn't happen without the Israeli and Palestinian propaganda machines churning away every day trying to win over the "hearts and minds" of the west.

The last two weeks have been stressful,  I have family in Natanya and Be'er Sheva,  both have been hit by rockets and terrorist attacks,  so an end that would guarantee the end of this conflict forever would be optimal,  is it possible?  It depends on the people at the table. 

 

[6666]

35 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The last two weeks have been stressful,  I have family in Natanya and Be'er Sheva,  both have been hit by rockets and terrorist attacks,  so an end that would guarantee the end of this conflict forever would be optimal,  is it possible?  It depends on the people at the table. 

 

Netanyahu and Israel losing all military power in the region? We can only hope. Extremely unlikely though. Israel unfortunately has too much support from powerful western countries which means they'll be freely killing massive amounts of people with little consequence and that may lead to some understandable backlash from victims and those that side with the victims. Hopefully an end to Israel's brutality comes to an end one day though.

[OrangeKhrush]

27 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Netanyahu and Israel losing all military power in the region? We can only hope. Extremely unlikely though. Israel unfortunately has too much support from powerful western countries which means they'll be freely killing massive amounts of people with little consequence and that may lead to some understandable backlash from victims and those that side with the victims. Hopefully an end to Israel's brutality comes to an end one day though.

Your solution is to prevent Israel being able to defend herself?  this is code for you want our people to be easy to kill again,  good luck with that.    Israel is one of the best self producing states,  the only reason Israel doesn't have an aerospace project is because the United States shut it down in return the US would provide aircraft to Israel,  this was in the 60's when the US were pushing the F16 and F15's,  Israel built the Lavi and had interested buyers globally that threatened the US sales.   Other than that Israel has its own firearms, infantry combat equipment, Tanks, IFV's, Artillery, Air defence.   The air force while being American fighters Israel has free rights to modify them to their own spec,  which includes sophisticated avionics and weapon systems that support Israeli designed air to air, air to ground weapons like the LORA, Delilah, Spike, Spear, Spice, Python.

Ideally and this sentiment is shared by most Jews that Isreal needs to continue to work towards being completely self dependant,  right now and in this conflict,  Israel is to dependant on 155m shells and bombs. 

In summary Israel's military strength is a deterrent against those that have tried to kill our people,  some longer than others. 

As for Netenyahu,  his political career will end after this conflict for better or worse,  the options are not that good,  for me Yair Lapid is the better option over Benny Gantz,  however that bridge will be crossed when the time comes. 

Edited October 17 by OrangeKhrush

[6666]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

Your solution is to prevent Israel being able to defend herself?  this is code for you want our people to be easy to kill again,  good luck with that.    Israel is one of the best self producing states,  the only reason Israel doesn't have an aerospace project is because the United States shut it down in return the US would provide aircraft to Israel,  this was in the 60's when the US were pushing the F16 and F15's,  Israel built the Lavi and had interested buyers globally that threatened the US sales.   Other than that Israel has its own firearms, infantry combat equipment, Tanks, IFV's, Artillery, Air defence.   The air force while being American fighters Israel has free rights to modify them to their own spec,  which includes sophisticated avionics and weapon systems that support Israeli designed air to air, air to ground weapons like the LORA, Delilah, Spike, Spear, Spice, Python.

Ideally and this sentiment is shared by most Jews that Isreal needs to continue to work towards being completely self dependant,  right now and in this conflict,  Israel is to dependant on 155m shells and bombs. 

In summary Israel's military strength is a deterrent against those that have tried to kill our people,  some longer than others. 

Oh. You're one of these "Israel just defends itself" clowns. 

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, 6666 said:

Oh. You're one of these "Israel just defends itself" clowns. 

Has Israel invaded Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, UAE?  the question you need to ask is why did Israel invade Gaza?  if you can't figure that out then you are just dishonest as to why.   Was Isreal meant to do nothing?  that is just stupid,  if Mexico came into the US and killed 10000 Americans,  abducted 1000's,  America would absolutely flatten Mexico. 

I have never orthodox or regarded as religious,  I was reform until I became secular (observant),  however I feel something be it called intervention or just luck has kept Am Yisrael safe,  the real plans of 7/10 were discovered and somehow they were managed to be botched  somehow.   The nature of the attack,  the brutality and the absolute lack of respect being a Jewish holiday showed that this was not some kind of justified attack,  it was an act of shear malevolence yet it could have been a lot worse.    Psalms 127: 

אם השם לא יבנה בית    Unless the Lord builds the house,
שוא עמלו בוניו בו           The builders labour in vain, 

אם השם לא ישמר עיר   Unless the Lord Watches over the City,
שוא שקד שומר              The Watchmen,  keep vigil in vain. 

הנה לא ינום ולא יישן      He does not sleep nor slumber
שומר ישראל                  The Guardian/The Lord of Israel. 

When my Grand Parents were liberated from Treblinka,  they were part of the never again generation,  of course when it comes to hating Jews the next fanatic wasn't far around the corner in the form of the Pan Arab Brotherhood (later renamed islamic brotherhood),  our people will out live them too. 
 

 

 

[Spike]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I didn't call them "low IQ NPCs" - they just have a limited amount of information they're working with, not that they're irredeemably stupid or "NPCs".

Most people aren't going to be up to speed with the history of the region, most people aren't even up to speed with the history of their own countries. It's one reason why propaganda is so effective, it's targeting people that don't have anywhere near of an idea of what the full picture of the situation is and then filling their head with bullshit.

Both sides are guilty of weaponising low info westerners for support, just like both sides are guilty of horrific human rights abuses.

Not that you are guilty of it, but IMHO ‘both sides are bad’ argument has become a bad stance. While it is true for the most part, I feel like it’s become a stance to dismiss 1. What is happening in Palestine, 2. a hand wave to justify Israel. Only one side has the means to actualise their goals, backed by most of the west. It becomes a situation where the analysis becomes redundant if ‘both bad’. It’s also a safe statement and relatively non-offensive, especially in this near world wide spanning clash of culture and religion. 

This is definitely a unique situation where the media establishment (pro-Israel) is completely at odds with the grassroots (pro-palestine), this is an unprecedented division, that I’ve honestly never experienced before. Something has to be said about the dissemination of information through atypical means (tik tok, snapchat, yourube), because twenty years ago surely this would mirror the support for the ‘War on Terror’. I wouldn’t necessarily call this alternative dissemination a weaponisation of information but it is definitely information without context that a lot of people struggle to process materially, culturally, emotionally, and with the nuance of all the factors considered, we see this juxtaposition of cultivated message media v alternative gonzo information daily in this thread, and what we experience is an inability to see the forest for the trees in any capacity and becomes ouroboros of black and white morality arguing. They can’t even conceptualise they are dehumanising the other, which is ironic seeing as this is a struggle that is constantly trying to justify itself in such a method.  

There are so many issues that aren’t even addressed in this thread, what is even the point in addressing them? It’s such a tangled geopolitical thread of what-ifs, factions, end goals, the only thing I’m comfortable saying is that this is a conflict between a western-backed colonial state against an occupied land represented by a non-existent-state apparatus of teenaged Sunni nationalists; with the only resolution seemingly being the complete eradication of the Palestinian people, making any sort of thoughtful criticism and analysis of Hamas pointless in the long run. I truly believe the line in the sand has been fully crossed and their can be no resolution that isn’t  a genocide, the intention is clear to me and Israel can’t continue  exist without seeing this through. I don’t even bother to ask what Palestine will do if they have independence and sovereignty, because that ain’t happening even if Israel disappears. It’s a terrible thing to think but I think we are witnessing a truly horrific watershed moment of history that will have far reaching consequences beyond the immediate geographic area. This is the event that will actualise and normalise a the complete shift  to right wing politics, this opens the door to things like project 2025 and the acceptance of these violent acts against people like immigrants, LGBTQ, religious minorities, and other at risk groups. 

[6666]

52 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Has Israel invaded Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, UAE?  the question you need to ask is why did Israel invade Gaza?  if you can't figure that out then you are just dishonest as to why.   Was Isreal meant to do nothing?  that is just stupid,  if Mexico came into the US and killed 10000 Americans,  abducted 1000's,  America would absolutely flatten Mexico. 

I have never orthodox or regarded as religious,  I was reform until I became secular (observant),  however I feel something be it called intervention or just luck has kept Am Yisrael safe,  the real plans of 7/10 were discovered and somehow they were managed to be botched  somehow.   The nature of the attack,  the brutality and the absolute lack of respect being a Jewish holiday showed that this was not some kind of justified attack,  it was an act of shear malevolence yet it could have been a lot worse.    Psalms 127: 

אם השם לא יבנה בית    Unless the Lord builds the house,
שוא עמלו בוניו בו           The builders labour in vain, 

אם השם לא ישמר עיר   Unless the Lord Watches over the City,
שוא שקד שומר              The Watchmen,  keep vigil in vain. 

הנה לא ינום ולא יישן      He does not sleep nor slumber
שומר ישראל                  The Guardian/The Lord of Israel. 

When my Grand Parents were liberated from Treblinka,  they were part of the never again generation,  of course when it comes to hating Jews the next fanatic wasn't far around the corner in the form of the Pan Arab Brotherhood (later renamed islamic brotherhood),  our people will out live them too. 

Ah yes, let's pretend the start was October 7th and Israel was attacked out of nowhere for no reason... Very few people buy that story. People know what Israel has been about since their inception. Torturing and killing Palestinians isn't something that Israel has done in "defence". Israel does that to re-establish oppressive dominance over Palestinians.

You may try to justify mass murder, mass torture, mass kidnapping, and mass rape as self defence but you'd have to be a psycho to actually believe it. And that's whether we're talking before or after October 7th. Just like you'd have to be a psycho to believe Israel's version of events on October 7th. Your poorly trained, teenage IDF terrorists just killed everyone in sight like they're used to doing and killed a lot of the people partying next to a concentration camp.

Also the US wouldn't flatten Mexico like you're suggesting but this idea of "what would you do?" is ridiculous when you consider that Israel murdered, kidnapped, raped, and tortured Palestinians for decades and will continue to do it as long as they can. What would any people from any nation do if they were subjected to that? But of course you don't think that counts because that's just supposed to be accepted as normal.

If you viewed all lives as equal, you'd see why a majority of people dislike Israel.

And it wasn't divine intervention that "saved" Israel. Israel's military far outweighs 10 Hamas'. Pretending they're the little guy that pulled through is hilarious.

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

Not that you are guilty of it, but IMHO ‘both sides are bad’ argument has become a bad stance. While it is true for the most part, I feel like it’s become a stance to dismiss 1. What is happening in Palestine, 2. a hand wave to justify Israel. Only one side has the means to actualise their goals, backed by most of the west. It becomes a situation where the analysis becomes redundant if ‘both bad’. It’s also a safe statement and relatively non-offensive, especially in this near world wide spanning clash of culture and religion. 

This is definitely a unique situation where the media establishment (pro-Israel) is completely at odds with the grassroots (pro-palestine), this is an unprecedented division, that I’ve honestly never experienced before. Something has to be said about the dissemination of information through atypical means (tik tok, snapchat, yourube), because twenty years ago surely this would mirror the support for the ‘War on Terror’. I wouldn’t necessarily call this alternative dissemination a weaponisation of information but it is definitely information without context that a lot of people struggle to process materially, culturally, emotionally, and with the nuance of all the factors considered, we see this juxtaposition of cultivated message media v alternative gonzo information daily in this thread, and what we experience is an inability to see the forest for the trees in any capacity and becomes ouroboros of black and white morality arguing. They can’t even conceptualise they are dehumanising the other, which is ironic seeing as this is a struggle that is constantly trying to justify itself in such a method.  

There are so many issues that aren’t even addressed in this thread, what is even the point in addressing them? It’s such a tangled geopolitical thread of what-ifs, factions, end goals, the only thing I’m comfortable saying is that this is a conflict between a western-backed colonial state against an occupied land represented by a non-existent-state apparatus of teenaged Sunni nationalists; with the only resolution seemingly being the complete eradication of the Palestinian people, making any sort of thoughtful criticism and analysis of Hamas pointless in the long run. I truly believe the line in the sand has been fully crossed and their can be no resolution that isn’t  a genocide, the intention is clear to me and Israel can’t continue  exist without seeing this through. I don’t even bother to ask what Palestine will do if they have independence and sovereignty, because that ain’t happening even if Israel disappears. It’s a terrible thing to think but I think we are witnessing a truly horrific watershed moment of history that will have far reaching consequences beyond the immediate geographic area. This is the event that will actualise and normalise a the complete shift  to right wing politics, this opens the door to things like project 2025 and the acceptance of these violent acts against people like immigrants, LGBTQ, religious minorities, and other at risk groups. 

I think there's a solution without genocide, but it requires the international community actually doing something to enforce international law... rather than just sitting by and letting two people that have demonstrated for decades they don't respect the other side existing.

The loudest voices in this conflict are the ones who have been driving the conflict. Imho it's time the rest of the world tells them to shut up and actually do something to end the conflict, rather than amplify all their bullshit.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

 if Mexico came into the US and killed 10000 Americans,  abducted 1000's,  America would absolutely flatten Mexico. 

Mexico literally had to deal with the US rolling in, stealing their land, and giving out citizenships to the land owning Mexican ranchers 

Btw the two nations now have friendly ties.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think there's a solution without genocide, but it requires the international community actually doing something to enforce international law... rather than just sitting by and letting two people that have demonstrated for decades they don't respect the other side existing.

The loudest voices in this conflict are the ones who have been driving the conflict. Imho it's time the rest of the world tells them to shut up and actually do something to end the conflict, rather than amplify all their bullshit.

The international community wants conflict to generate a war economy, saving capital from collapsing in on itself without its ‘infinite growth’. Can’t collapse if you keep manufacturing massively expensive and resource demanding goods. Also can’t kill too quickly and efficiently because then you can’t keep selling manufacturing weapons. 

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Mexico literally had to deal with the US rolling in, stealing their land, and giving out citizenships to the land owning Mexican ranchers 

Btw the two nations now have friendly ties.

lmao half of the USA used to be Mexico, full of Mexicans, and you have second generation Americans telling Mexicans ‘to go back’. It’s like this bumper sticker I saw the other day ‘Iowa native’, the sheer audacity to have that on your car, it’s BOLD