UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Guest]

I do think brexit  has caused alot of issues with Johnson's reign. The hardcore brexiters wont admit he ever does anything wrong. It happens the other way as well. Hardcore Corbyn supporters can be just as bad. Doesn't mean it should though 

[RandoEFC+]

Mr Blobby is now going to come out and announce Plan B restrictions this evening including vaccine passports and work from home. Now I think work from home is eminently sensible as a short term winter measure while the case count is high, I'm not sold on vaccine passports. Sure they reduce transmission but I'm not sure the extent of the logistics behind them make it worthwhile or properly enforceable.

This announcement, whether you agree with it or not, though, is going to be totally pointless. All of the follow up questions will be about this Christmas party and this government have lost all of the credibility and authority they had left in this field. However many people were a bit cheeky last year, you can multiply that by ten and there's no way the police can enforce sanctions against them all, so how can they pick and choose where to enforce the rules? They can't. And some will attempt to shift the blame onto them for not enforcing the government's laws. It'll be seen for the total farce it is though, because without even getting into the cutbacks policing has endured along with the rest of our public services in the last decade of Tory government, Downing Street's flagrant breach of its own rules last Christmas mean that any future restrictions are going to be unenforceable because you just won't get the consent you need from a big enough majority of the public.

This PM has to go. God forbid the Omicron variant turns out to be more dangerous than the initial signals seem to suggest (touch wood) because the damage this government has done to public goodwill through their selfish actions would be devastating if the threat level of the pandemic shot up again.

[The Artful Dodger]

Absolute madness to introduce vaccine passports. I'm inclined to think they're trying bury the bad news about this party. With the reports from South Africa increasingly positive this strange mindset that COVID is this horrific threat needs to be banished. 

We are now dealing with something potentially no more threatening than the common cold, in fact this is what many people predicted because it is so closely related to the cold virus. Many of the cold viruses we have today would have started off as stronger, more virulent viruses and then weakened. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Dave]

 

 

[Stan]

2 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

 

 

It's funny how many times politicians hamstring themselves on social media. There is literally always a tweet. They're not just out of touch with the people they govern but genuinely just out of touch with reality. They've become invincible in their own minds because they keep fucking getting voted in. An air of protection is formed when that keeps happening. 

[Stan]

 

Meanwhile it's quite clearly one of those apologies where she's only doing so cos she lost her job, not that she actually cares about anything else. Or anyone else. 

[Guest]

Has any prime minister in recent times got away with what boris has? 

[RandoEFC+]

I think we'll have a good idea by the start of next week whether or not this has a chance of spelling the end for the Clown King.

Starmer has faced criticism for not demanding his resignation. If I was the Labour leader right now, I'd do almost anything to keep that glorified mop in Downing Street until the next election instead of going up against Truss or Sunak and allowing all of the "I'm alright Jack" Tory voters can just wilfully forgive another term of corrupt and regressive governance by pretending the new ones aren't like the last ones.

He should go though regardless from a moral standpoint. Every day that thing is the supposed leader of this country is a national embarrassment and has been since the very start.

[The Artful Dodger]

8 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Has any prime minister in recent times got away with what boris has? 

Probably not, but we are in strange times where you can barely get a calm, cogent piece of news from anywhere. He should go though, it’s untenable.

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Dr. Gonzo]

17 hours ago, Smiley Culture said:

If you’re trusting this lot, or politicians in general, to lead by example then you’re asking to be let down, personally. Johnson should have been gone long ago, he wasn’t even at these parties so he’s got off of all the flak for this but the precedents was set a long time ago for his party and their handling of Covid.  
 

 

 

Reducing the standards that are expected of leaders is how we ended up with people like David Cameron & Boris Johnson.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Probably not, but we are in strange times where you can barely get a calm, cogent piece of news from anywhere. He should go though, it’s untenable.

Like I said. He has support from the hardcore brexiters. He can do no wrong. It's ridiculous. No reasonable person should support a person no matter what they do 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Guest

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

He has support from the hardcore brexiters

This is becoming less and less true. Notice how immigration has started coming back to the fore because Farage and his ilk just need something to get angry at and brown people fleeing from devastation in their own home for a chance at a better life fits the bill.

Some Tory councillors are starting to defect to Reform (Farage's old part) or Reclaim (Laurence Fox's weird middle-age divorcee party) because they're upset that the government actually have to do "leftie" things like taking climate change seriously, not following through with their inhumane threats to use gunboats on refugees crossing the channel, and making people wear masks and work from home for the sake of public safety, etc.

The government, regardless of how right-wing or stupid they are, cannot avoid things like public health measures and having a long-term view on the bare minimum of things that we're going to have to deal with in the future. There's a wing of the Conservative party, and it's the most Brexity wing, that are just addicted to being totally outraged at anything the government asked them or the public to do that involves the slightest bit of sacrifice or state intervention, and because literally any government has to do that, even Mr Blobby's sorry cabal, no Prime Minister is ever far from them threatening mutiny. These people genuinely believe "the market" can solve climate change and "personal responsibility" can solve pandemics.

His core support now probably comes from his cabinet and the "Red Wall" intake who feel as if they owe their seats to him and his Brexit. His problem with them is though that there's still a feeling that they've had Northern votes lent to them and they could lose them as quickly as they gained them. They're volatile in a different way.

Problem for opposition is that these voters are going from Conservative to 'undecided', not to Labour or Lib Dem. They'll still be up for grabs at the next election which is why I worry that the Tories with a new leader will just suck them back up again and win because the other parties haven't managed to woo them.

[Bluewolf]

Allegra Stratton has quit her role in the aftermath of the leaked footage over the Christmas Party.. 

This is probably the most honest I have seen someone be about making a mistake.. Shame the real culprits are probably going to get away with it.. 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Imagine someone called Allegra being a twat? 

[Smiley Culture]

6 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

Allegra Stratton has quit her role in the aftermath of the leaked footage over the Christmas Party.. 

This is probably the most honest I have seen someone be about making a mistake.. Shame the real culprits are probably going to get away with it.. 

 

Crocodile tears. Fuck her. 

[Guest]

@RandoEFC some of the obsesiveness about government intervention baffles me when it comes to people who always have and probably always will work for someone else.  Businesses arent always going to do the right thing. Like most I want the markets to be as free as possible. However you need things like minimum wage and health and safety  otherwise business wouldn't always do it.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Absolute madness to introduce vaccine passports. I'm inclined to think they're trying bury the bad news about this party. With the reports from South Africa increasingly positive this strange mindset that COVID is this horrific threat needs to be banished. 

We are now dealing with something potentially no more threatening than the common cold, in fact this is what many people predicted because it is so closely related to the cold virus. Many of the cold viruses we have today would have started off as stronger, more virulent viruses and then weakened. 

I'm pretty certain it is much more dangerous than the common cold. Even if it does end up like the cold it isnt at the moment. Vaccine passports are debatable however saying covid is  no more dangerous than the common cold is not true 

[The Artful Dodger]

10 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I'm pretty certain it is much more dangerous than the common cold. Even if it does end up like the cold it isnt at the moment. Vaccine passports are debatable however saying covid is  no more dangerous than the common cold is not true 

I'm not saying it is, as we are currently, but the signs are that it is waning and will become just like that.

COVID has never been the Plague it's made out to be though. It's only because it effects some rich Westerners that it's even cared about, if it was confined to the poorer continents it wouldn't be given a shit about. We've destroyed the lives of millions of children for this.

Human beings thinking they can control and manipulate a virus like this is the height of hubris.  I'm pro-vax, pro-masks but this weird desire for my fellow citizens to see further lockdowns just smacks of people totally unaware of what lockdown causes. We're destroying the futures of our children for what? 

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Guest]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not saying it is, as we are currently, but the signs are that it is waning and will become just like that.

COVID has never been the Plague it's made out to be though. It's only because it effects some rich Westerners that it's even cared about, if it was confined to the poorer continents it wouldn't be given a shit about. We've destroyed the lives of millions of children for this.

Human beings thinking they can control and manipulate a virus like this is just incredible. 

It killed 120 thousand people in Britain in one year. Thats alot of people mate. It is estimated it would have killed half a million if not for the lockdowns. It was proven that lockdowns helped stop the spread as have vaccinations. We can certainly do things to help keep the death toll down.  This is isnt just some random people saying these things these are the world leading experts 

[The Artful Dodger]

3 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

It killed 120 thousand people in Britain in one year. Thats alot of people mate. It is estimated it would have killed half a million if not for the lockdowns. It was proven that lockdowns helped stop the spread as have vaccinations. We can certainly do things to help keep the death toll down.  This is isnt just some random people saying these things these are the world leading experts 

Lockdown at the start was necessary, yes. In fact should have been done quicker, but disease, I'm sorry for you to hear is a fact of life. We can't just wish it away. It's always going to be here and will always will, sadly, kill some people. They are now threatening to lockdown again when the disease is clearly waning in severity. The negatives of Lockdowns is now not clearly outbalance by the positives. You can't run from this forever. It will be just another virus, but this hyper, rolling news culture makes us think we're living in some kind of plague ridden society. We are not.

Do you think the thousands of children who died because of the COVID disruption in Africa was worth it? Lockdowns kill as well. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[The Artful Dodger]

Every healthy society priorities children over everyone else, that's the way life should be. However, we're different.  This is Liberalism, 'I am more important than anyone else' attitude. What we've done is unforgivable, you're going to have a generation of children with barely any schooling because of this nonsense. The resultant social problems will be catastrophic. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Lockdown at the start was necessary, yes. In fact should have been done quicker, but disease, I'm sorry for you to hear is a fact of life. We can't just wish it away. It's always going to be here and will always will, sadly, kill some people. They are now threatening to lockdown again when the disease is clearly waning in severity. The negatives of Lockdowns is now not clearly outbalance by the positives. You can't run from this forever. It will be just another virus, but this hyper, rolling news culture makes us think we're living in some kind of plague ridden society. We are not.

I'm not saying anything about lockdowns now. Disease is a part of life agree. But a pandemic with the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of people is another thing. I dont have enough information to have an opinion on a another lockdown so cant comment on that. As for vaccine passports. Some of it I support other bits I dont. I don't have an issue with a country saying they wont let unvaccinated people in. I dont have an issue with people not being allowed at large public gatherings.  Why should other people suffer for their ignorance. Also a lot of people will get the vaccine when cant go to these things so it will help us get more people vaccinated. Quite a lot more probably. I dont however think people should be put in jail for not being vaccinated. I think there has to be a balance between freedom and personal choice, long term issues and keeping people alive. Personally I try to balance my opinion on that.  To be honest I think we probably agree we just maybe have different perimeters to what we think is acceptable 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Guest

[The Artful Dodger]

'Suffer for their ignorance'...What????? It's not anybody's fault. this is a virus, it can jump anywhere, anytime. We are social beings and virus transmission is inevitable, it cannot be prevented. Human beings do not control the world in the way we think we do and we are subject to nature just as every animal is. I know this is big shock to people here who think we're owed a 100% germ free world. 

Anti-vaxxers are largely deluded, lonely people but blaming the spread of a virus on them is ridiculous. The virus will mutate and mutate again, so it can spread and evade vaccines. BUt, it will be like the cold. That's where the cold comes from, it's a very close relation.

Edited December 8, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[RandoEFC+]

Starting to see in schools now the long term effects of the lockdowns on children's education for the first time. The short term effects weren't that bad but now we have a Year 11 who haven't had a full year in school since they were in Year 8, now they have GCSEs to sit. Those kids with base motivation and a supportive home life who could access the home learning easily are basically fine, some have even flourished in a way they might not have done otherwise, but they're in a minority. Most teenagers lack self-motivation even with support and positive pressure from their parents and carers. The difference is very clear in kids who have spent two years being in and out of school, and that's on the Isle of Man where we've had less disruption than the UK. We're going to be picking the pieces up for years.

It's not just the lost learning and attainment either. The difference in their social development is clear as well in the way some of them are behaving in and out of school. This is where the home life has a bigger impact, not all of them have the support needed to keep them on the straight and narrow with such a big shift in their daily routine. The structure of school and the opportunity to socialise with their peers in school and in public are huge for those kids.

Kids are bloody resilient, moreso than a lot of adults, they've accepted and overcome the adversity they've faced better than adults I'd say on average and that's no exaggeration. But they're still developing physically, mentally and emotionally, and this thing has left scars on many of them growing up that will take time to come to light and be resolved.

More lockdowns cannot happen unless we find ourselves back in the situation we were in at the start. That's more likely to come from a future pandemic though than a mutation of this virus. Lockdowns only act to suppress infection and illness to buy time for other solutions such as vaccines and medication.

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not saying it is, as we are currently, but the signs are that it is waning and will become just like that.

COVID has never been the Plague it's made out to be though. It's only because it effects some rich Westerners that it's even cared about, if it was confined to the poorer continents it wouldn't be given a shit about. We've destroyed the lives of millions of children for this.

Human beings thinking they can control and manipulate a virus like this is the height of hubris.  I'm pro-vax, pro-masks but this weird desire for my fellow citizens to see further lockdowns just smacks of people totally unaware of what lockdown causes. We're destroying the futures of our children for what? 

Tbh, it's been the richest in the West that are the most against any of the restrictions because they've found it detrimental to their wallets. I agree that few people care about poorer countries, but also in these poorer countries things like staying at home or social distancing are genuine luxuries that only the elite there can afford.

Too many Western countries were too slow to act to lockdown and slow the spread - definitely. And I'm absolutely not in favour of any more lockdowns, even though this omicron variant is meant to be very very contagious (because it's supposedly not as severe as other variants - although I question how much doctors and virologists actually know about the new variant). I think some countries have gone absolutely mental with their restrictions.

I think at this stage, the Western world needs to have more of a focus on vaccinating the rest of the world - I think if you live in the West and you want a vaccine... you've probably gotten one at this point. Trying to convince people who don't want to get the vaccine, imo, is a fruitless effort. But getting the vaccines to parts of the world that are poorer and have far less access to the vaccine I think would give millions exactly what they want & do a huge amount in slowing the spread of the virus worldwide.

I can't see that happening though because there are too many people in the west that are apathetic to people that don't even live that far from them, let alone people that live in places very far away with people they never think about.