Group C - Matchday 5 & 6 - 9-12th September, 2023

[Stan]

all kick-offs BST

Saturday 9th September, 2023

Ukraine vs England, 17.00
North Macedonia vs Italy, 19.45

Tuesday 12th September, 2023

Italy vs Ukraine, 19.45
Malta vs North Macedonia, 19.45

[Danny]

Strong team overall, could be wrong but I sort of expect the team to look like the below in attacking phases with Chilwell and Saka trying to pin them back high and wide, Maddison drifting in centrally, Kane dropping deep as well as making forward runs and Bellingham looking to exploit Kane’s soace alongside Maddison.

 

Chilwell ————————— Saka

Maddison - Kane - Bellingham

———————— Henderson

—Rice

——— Maguire —— Guehi — Walker

          Ramsdale

Edited September 9, 2023 by Danny

[Danny]

Maddison getting a bit petulant and momentum has fully swung towards Ukraine now. They’re defending well and took their goal well too.

Feel like we’re just getting a bit too stationary off the ball. There was a moment where Guehi ran with the ball towards their defence earlier with Bellingham ahead and Chillwell or Madison to the left. Once he had a defender comitted he could have passed to one of them leaving Ukraine on the back foot, but Bellingham dropped deep which gave Ukraine cover against our left winger and centrally against Guehi, forcing him to pass back to Bellingham who just crossed it in the end.

[Danny]

Harry Kane take a bow. Great control and finish from Walker

Edited September 9, 2023 by Danny

[Danny]

We’ve lacked width, wide players not doubling up as too many players centrally. The problem with Maddison as a left winger so far is that he is playing as an attacking mid who doesnt wanna stray wide. That goal was exactly what we needed.

[Michael]

That was an entertaining 1st half. Zinchenko finished off a nice team move to give Ukraine the lead. Tsyhankov slipped Konoplya through on the right flank with a lovely pass and then Konoplya crossed the bal into the area where the onrushing Zinchenko struck the ball past Pickford to score and give Ukraine the lead.

England's goal by Walker, was all thanks to that lovely long range pass by Kane, that picked him out. Walker collected the pass and then drove the ball past Bushchan to equalise for England.

Ukraine 1-1 England

[Danny]

I don’t know if its the restrictive position he’s playing versus what he does for Spurs, but Maddison has played poorly today. Long range passes that dont find their man, mis controlling the ball in dangerous areas preventing a goal scoring chance. Just not been that creative.

Foden and Rashford coming on is good but I think Maddison and Bellingham negate each other a bit playing so close. Think Bellingham could have stayed on and we could have brought Henderson off instead.

[Reluctant Striker]

Toughest not-Italy match for England. A point not at all a disaster thanks to the start in the group. But really did feel lethargic from England. I presume the plan was for Maddison to cut inwards in possession. Letting Chilwell take the wing. But it really was not working. Rashford did stay wide when he came on, but always looks the worst passer in any England side. So many counter attacks were launched by Rashford trying a basic pass that just wasn't on. And did not seem able to pull something out of a hat. And just never really looked like doing anything special. The moment that really summed up England's below par showing was when Rashford did have a chance to run, jink & shoot.. he just kind of tripped himself up.

Bit weird to take Bellingham off. But he wasn't at it at all.

I can see Scotland being loads more up for the friendly than this England side. 

[Michael]

Well England dropped their first points of their group matches so far, in this game against Ukraine in Poland. To be fair though, Ukraine and Italy are England's two toughest opponents in this group and it's in their 4 matches against North Macedonia and Malta, where England will continue to seek maximum points. As for todays match, I think that in the end, both England and Ukraine will be satisfied with the draw.

I thought that it was a match where both right-backs stood out. Konoplya for me was excellent for Ukraine. He defended excellently and was very intelligent with his passing and movement when he attacked. He of course set up Zinchenko's goal with an impressive run and cross. But he put in a very good display today and I think he has now confirmed himself as Ukraine's first choice right-back. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the latest Ukrainian to either join an English Premier League club or a Spanish La Liga club in the next transfer window, given his brilliant recent displays.

Conversely, I thought Kyle Walker similarly had a very impressive game for England. It wasn't just his well taken goal today, that was excellently set up by Kane's superb pass. But his all round performance was very admirable. He has an excellent engine on him and he has pace to burn. But I also think that with experience, he has now become a much more intelligent footballer, he generally knows when to make the right moves and right runs. He's got to be one of the best full-backs in the world.

 

[Danny]

I think overall Southgate was happy with a point as otherwise I think he would have taken Henderson off instead of Bellingham. Not just that but a lot of the time Kyle Walker played as an inverted right back holding possession with the midfield which helped negate Ukraine’s danger through Zinchenko but meant we were restricted ourselves.

I don’t think there’s an issue playing Bellingham and Maddison together, or Bellingham and Foden say, but I do think it needs to be in an attacking mid position for both rather than a winger.

[Michael]

England have a number of quality offensive players, like Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Grealish and Maddison. However, for me, Saka is the key player. His pace and the danger he poses when attacking, is England's greatest threat in my opinion. He can cut open defences with his dribbling and he strikes the ball beautifully. He also creates so many chances for others in the team. He is that player with the X factor for England.

[patoriku66]

I just watched this match and I must admit I was disappointed..

We were pants in general and apart from a moment of light from Kane to feed Walker a ball we would have lost.

How can we have so many talented players in the national squad and play like that?

A point to the Everton fans, why does Mikelenko (SP) always play's a blinder for Ukraine but not for you?

[Reluctant Striker]

North Macedonia 1 - 1 Italy

Could end up 2 consecutive tournaments Italy fail to qualify for, right after winning Euro 20/21.

[Whiskey]

10 hours ago, patoriku66 said:

A point to the Everton fans, why does Mikelenko (SP) always play's a blinder for Ukraine but not for you?

He's not built for the Premier League. Comes across as a shy, nice guy without the ruthless edge to be an English full back.

Obviously did well against what was a poor attacking England team and I've said before when we go down he'd probably be alright in the Championship.

[Michael]

3 hours ago, Reluctant Striker said:

North Macedonia 1 - 1 Italy

Could end up 2 consecutive tournaments Italy fail to qualify for, right after winning Euro 20/21.

Well Italy didn't even qualify for the 2018 World Cup. North Macedonia are a very tough team to play away from home and their current team are the best generation of players that they have had since their independence from the old Yugoslavia. But with a country of Italy's population and with their strong Serie A League that they have, they should really be beating teams like Macedonia, even if it's away from home. I personally think that it will be England and Ukraine who qualify from this group. Ukraine beat North Macedonia 3-2 away from home, so they achieved what the Italians couldn't. But the next match on Tuesday in Italy, between Italy and Ukraine, will be crucial for both sides. A draw or a win would be an excellent result for Ukraine. For Italy, they must win that match, if they want to realistically qualify.

The war in Ukraine, as terrible as it has been, has in certain ways benefitted Ukrainian football. We have seen more and more Ukrainian footballers move to foreign leagues. There are literally more than 100 Ukrainian footballers now playing in European leagues all around Europe.

However, the fact that many of the top Ukrainian players now play in the best European leagues, has no doubt benefitted the national team. Yaremchuk(Valencia), Tsyhankov(Girona), Dovbyk(Girona) and Lunin(Real Madrid) all play in Spain's La Liga. Mudryk(Chelsea), Zinchenko(Arsenal), Zabarnyi(Bournemouth), Mykolenko(Everton) and Yarmolyuk(Brentford) all play for clubs in the English Premier League. Moreover, Rusyn plays for Sunderland and Kukharevych plays for Swansea City in the Championship. Malinvovskyi(Genoa on loand from Marseille) and Kovalenko(Empoli) both play in Italy's Serie A, while Sobol(Strasbourg) and Ihnatenko(Bordeaux) play their football for French clubs. Lastly, Ordets(Bochum) plays in the German Bundesliga, while Trubin plays for Benfica, arguably the best team in Portugal. So all in all, Ukrainian football looks very healthy right now, with many of their best players, playing in the best leagues in Europe.

[Michael]

12 hours ago, patoriku66 said:

A point to the Everton fans, why does Mikelenko (SP) always play's a blinder for Ukraine but not for you?

Mykolenko was a regular starter for Everton last season, but he has fallen out of favour with Dyche this season. Dyche likes his fullbacks to be much more defensive than Mykolenko is, I think that is a major issue with the Ukrainian struggling to start this season. But he had some excellent games for Everton last season and some not so good games for them as well. But it's never easy to play for a struggling Premier League club, given the quality of the opposition. I think when Ukrainians play for their national team, they really get pumped up for it, especially seeing as what is currently going on in their country. Mykolenko's good performance against England, is something he has to maintain at club level, if he wants to break back into that Everton team as a starter again.

His strengths are actually the attacking aspect of his game. He has great pace, can take on players and can cross the ball beautifully. However, defensively, although he is a good tackler, he has an issue with his positioning on quite a lot of occasions and can be caught out in that regard. His decision making is also not always the best, but we have to remember, that he is still relatively young, he only turned 24 this year and maybe with time he will improve these aspects of his game.

[RandoEFC+]

I disagree with a lot of that analysis. Mykolenko has had good games and bad games for Everton but his strengths are one to one defending and holding firm under pressure. He is woeful at anything offensive. Mediocre pace and can't really cross. 0 assists in 47 appearances. He offers painfully little in way of threat.

[Michael]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

I disagree with a lot of that analysis. Mykolenko has had good games and bad games for Everton but his strengths are one to one defending and holding firm under pressure. He is woeful at anything offensive. Mediocre pace and can't really cross. 0 assists in 47 appearances. He offers painfully little in way of threat.

Well, that could have a good deal to do with how he has been deployed by Dyche and with how Everton really struggled last season. He is naturally a wing-back and it's actually his offensive capabilities and stamina that he is known for in Ukraine. He is known for his good speed and he is also known for his good crossing ability. In fact, I think it's his pace that is one of the assets that helps him to be good at one on one defending as you suggested. Not having assists while being asked to play a more defensive role for a club that was struggling so badly last season, isn't something to necessarily be ashamed of. It would be a different story if he was played as a winger. 

[RandoEFC+]

18 minutes ago, Michael said:

Well, that could have a good deal to do with how he has been deployed by Dyche and with how Everton really struggled last season. He is naturally a wing-back and it's actually his offensive capabilities and stamina that he is known for in Ukraine. He is known for his good speed and he is also known for his good crossing ability. In fact, I think it's his pace that is one of the assets that helps him to be good at one on one defending as you suggested. Not having assists while being asked to play a more defensive role for a club that was struggling so badly last season, isn't something to necessarily be ashamed of. It would be a different story if he was played as a winger. 

He played the majority of his Everton appearances to date under Frank Lampard. Still mostly in a back four rather than a wing back admittedly but he has got into attacking positions in that formation on a number of occasions and been too wasteful when he could have scored or assisted.

I like the lad and want him to do well but there are other players who play in the same position in struggling teams who don't get forward much and manage to impress with their attacking output and to date, he just hasn't for Everton. Ask almost any Everton fan and they'll say he's a decent defender but that's all he can do because that's the reality of his time with us over the course of 50ish appearances.

[Whiskey]

28 minutes ago, Michael said:

Well, that could have a good deal to do with how he has been deployed by Dyche and with how Everton really struggled last season. He is naturally a wing-back and it's actually his offensive capabilities and stamina that he is known for in Ukraine. He is known for his good speed and he is also known for his good crossing ability. In fact, I think it's his pace that is one of the assets that helps him to be good at one on one defending as you suggested. Not having assists while being asked to play a more defensive role for a club that was struggling so badly last season, isn't something to necessarily be ashamed of. It would be a different story if he was played as a winger. 

He played under Lampard.

Also, as above he's absolutely shite when asked to do anything going forward. 

[Michael]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

He played the majority of his Everton appearances to date under Frank Lampard. Still mostly in a back four rather than a wing back admittedly but he has got into attacking positions in that formation on a number of occasions and been too wasteful when he could have scored or assisted.

I like the lad and want him to do well but there are other players who play in the same position in struggling teams who don't get forward much and manage to impress with their attacking output and to date, he just hasn't for Everton. Ask almost any Everton fan and they'll say he's a decent defender but that's all he can do because that's the reality of his time with us over the course of 50ish appearances.

Yeah, well it was Benitez who signed him at the start of 2022 if I remember correctly, but Benitez got sacked soon after that. Then he played under Lampard at Everton for the rest of 2022 and then under Dyche from January of this year.  Either way, as you suggested, he's played as a full-back for most of his time at Everton, as opposed to a wing-back. No doubt you've seen him play more for Everton than I have. But at Dynamo Kyiv and for the Ukrainian national team, he was known as an attack minded wing-back/full-back as well as for his defensive tackling ability. As a wing-back, he gets to take advantage of his great stamina and work-rate, as well as his speed. I guess it's a totally different kettle of fish playing for a team like Everton though in the Premier League. I think he's been forced to change his game while playing at Everton and perhaps further improved the defensive side of his game.

 

[Michael]

Italy narrowly beat Ukraine 2-1 at the San Siro in Milan in the end. Italy took an early lead after a fatal slip by Sudakov gave possession away and allowed Italy through on goal, where Inter Milan's Fratessi's low hard shot at the near post found its way past Bushchan and into the net to give Italy the lead. About a quarter of an hour later, Italy scored their 2nd goal, through that man Fratessi again. Zaniolo's shot from outside the area ricocheted against 3 players where it hit Kryvtsov and broke kindly back to Fratessi in front of goal and he tucked the ball past Buschan and into the net to score his and Italy's 2nd goal of the match.

Ukraine responded soon after Italy's goal, as Sudakov put Dovbyk through on goal with a lovely through ball, but Dovbyk's powerful left footed shot from outside the area, was excellently blocked by Italy's goalie Donnarumma. Just over 4 minutes later, another lovely through ball by Sudakov found Dovbyk again, but the pace of the ball meant it went just beyond him in the area, Dovbyk though managed to get to the ball in the penalty area, out on the left flank. Dovbyk then pulled the ball back to Tsyhankov, Tsyhankov then squared the ball to Yarmolenko, whose pass found Dovbyk again in front of goal. Dovbyk controlled the ball then shot from close range at goal. His shot forced another great save by Donnarumma, but eventually the ball found its way back to Yarmolenko in front of goal, who calmly slotted the ball into the net. It finished 2-1 at half-time.

In the 2nd half, both sides had chances. Raspadori's shot in the area forced a smart save by Bushchan and 10 minutes later, Locatelli's shot hit the cross-bar. For Ukraine, Konoplya's close range powerful header from Mudryk's cross flew just wide of the post and late on, the substitute Vanat had a powerful long range shot fly just inches wide of the Italian goal. In the end, the win for Italy earns them a precious 3 points.

For Ukraine, I think they felt the absence of the injured Matviyenko in defence, because his replacement Kryvtsov did not have a good game. Matviyenko and Zabarnyi have formed a solid defensive partnership in recent years. Dovbyk was probably Ukraine's best player on the day, as he was a constant threat for the Italian defence and he forced Donnarumma into 2 excellent saves during the match. Sudakov is improving as a young play-maker, although it was his terrible slip that lead to Italy's opening goal. Zinchenko plays his role in central midfield very well, however his central midfield partner Stepanenko is a bit hit and miss these days. Maybe the likes of the younger midfielders Pikhalyonok, Nazaryna or Ihnatenko should be given more of a chance in the midfield ball winning role that Stepanenko plays in for the national team. The regular creative wide players Tsyhankov, Yarmolenko and Mudryk all carry a threat. While Mykolenko at left-back does a decent job and the ever improving right-back Konoplya has really impressed recently. 

I am still a little surprised that Bushchan still holds the number one goalie position for Ukraine ahead of Trubin and Lunin. Although Buschan is much more experienced at 29 years of age, Trubin(22) and Lunin(24) are arguably much more naturally talented keepers. It could be argued that Lunin doesn't start for Ukraine because he is 2nd choice at Real Madrid behind Courtois. However, Trubin is going to be a key player for Benfica this season, having recently joined them from Shakhtar Donetsk. I really think that Trubin should now be starting for Ukraine, as he has been excellent for Shakhtar Donetsk and when he has played for Ukraine in recent years. 

Several experienced players were left out of Rebrov's latest squad, but the most surprising to not make the squad is Ruslan Malinovskyi. Hopefully his recent move to Genoa can get him playing some superb football again, where he enjoys scoring goals from long range.

As far as the table in this group is concerned, England lead the group on 13 points, while Italy, Ukraine and North Macedonia are all level on 7 points, with Malta bottom of the table with no points. Ukraine's next match against North Macedonia, which is likely to be held in Poland, is a must win match for Ukraine. The good news for Ukraine is that they've beaten North Macedonia in their last 2 competitive matches against them. Another win against North Macedonia will keep Ukraine's hopes of qualifying for the Euros in Germany alive. However, anything less than a win for Ukraine and they can practically kiss their hopes of qualifying for Euro 2024 goodbye.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Michael

[patoriku66]

I would agree with you on his Ukrainian performances.

I don't dislike him as a player, I think he would be better suited playing at a different club. Everton are to quote Darren Farly doing Sean Dyche, "We eat bricks, we eat nails and wood".

As a Liverpool fan, I enjoy the derbies! If Everton go down, the only ones to look forward to are United and Citeh. but it's not the same. I truly hope Dychey can can them going a bit more to stay up.

 

[Michael]

11 hours ago, patoriku66 said:

I would agree with you on his Ukrainian performances.

I don't dislike him as a player, I think he would be better suited playing at a different club. Everton are to quote Darren Farly doing Sean Dyche, "We eat bricks, we eat nails and wood".

As a Liverpool fan, I enjoy the derbies! If Everton go down, the only ones to look forward to are United and Citeh. but it's not the same. I truly hope Dychey can can them going a bit more to stay up.

 

I agree with you, I think that he'd do much better at another Premier League club. Moreover, if you take his age into account, Mykolenko is probably one of the most valuable players that Everton have, in terms of his transfer value as a player. So if they were to sell him to another club, they'd probably be able to get back the 24 million euros that they paid Dynamo Kyiv to sign him in the first place.

I think he'd do much better at Brentford or West Ham or Crystal Palace or even Bournemouth. Everton seem to have a lot of issues and they look like they will really struggle again this season. They just avoided getting relegated last season, they may not be so lucky this season.

It's a shame that Everton are struggling so badly, I'd like to see them remain in the Premier League as well.