Chilean Superstar Ben Brereton-Diaz Returns to England

[Goku de la Boca]

@Stan between your anti vaxxer friend who tells you the vaccine doesn't work because his experience gave him side effects and he still got COVID, or a doctor/scientist who tells you exactly what goes into the vaccine and how the whole methodology works, who do you believe?

I can fully understand if you want to disagree with me on a player, say Pogba for example. If I say he has good consistency but you disagree, that's fine. That is something that is not behind curtains and is a personal interpretation. However when you say something like "how did my favourite director not bring in X or Y player, he's rubbish" when he could have failed his medical, he could have had a superior offer from another team, he could have had disagreements with club philosophy, he could have had a change of heart and preferred to stay, etc. Some of it does get leaked but the only people who know that are the ones involved.

I do not feel bad about belittling The Palace Fan to be honest because he did it to me first, if he didn't I could have had a more relaxed disagreement, but this sort of thing really annoys me because football is like politics. Everybody knows about the sport except the people working in it.

[Goku de la Boca]

Anyways I'm heading out for now, but to clarify I apologize if I expressed myself poorly but due to past incidents I've had with TPF as well as another post clearly provoking me in another thread I felt belittled, and that is why I reacted as I did. There is a big difference between meeting footballers and working directly with them. 

Please do not continue ignoring the "My opinion is not the word of god" or the "football is an interpretation sport" from me. I've admitted it several times and you lot are still closed on "he's arrogant. It is so convenient.

[Spike]

Yorkshire

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 hours ago, Goku de la Boca said:

@Stan between your anti vaxxer friend who tells you the vaccine doesn't work because his experience gave him side effects and he still got COVID, or a doctor/scientist who tells you exactly what goes into the vaccine and how the whole methodology works, who do you believe?

I can fully understand if you want to disagree with me on a player, say Pogba for example. If I say he has good consistency but you disagree, that's fine. That is something that is not behind curtains and is a personal interpretation. However when you say something like "how did my favourite director not bring in X or Y player, he's rubbish" when he could have failed his medical, he could have had a superior offer from another team, he could have had disagreements with club philosophy, he could have had a change of heart and preferred to stay, etc. Some of it does get leaked but the only people who know that are the ones involved.

I do not feel bad about belittling The Palace Fan to be honest because he did it to me first, if he didn't I could have had a more relaxed disagreement, but this sort of thing really annoys me because football is like politics. Everybody knows about the sport except the people working in it.

But again, you don't actually know what The Palace Fan does for work. How do you know he's not Simon Jordan and just considers himself fortunate to have met football players because he considers himself fortunate to have been director of his boyhood club?

I'm not saying that's the case, but we don't know it's not true. I don't see why you just have to invalidate his experience with players in England because you've got experience with players outside of England.

8 hours ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Please do not continue ignoring the "My opinion is not the word of god" or the "football is an interpretation sport" from me. I've admitted it several times and you lot are still closed on "he's arrogant. It is so convenient.

You must not realise how incredibly arrogant it sounds to say something like "my opinion is not the word of god" then. But I think to most people, it's going to come off as incredibly arrogant. It's one of those things that simply does not need to be said. Nobody's opinion is the word of god and nobody thinks anyone on here has an infallible opinion.

[Goku de la Boca]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You must not realise how incredibly arrogant it sounds to say something like "my opinion is not the word of god" then. But I think to most people, it's going to come off as incredibly arrogant. It's one of those things that simply does not need to be said. Nobody's opinion is the word of god and nobody thinks anyone on here has an infallible opinion.

Clearly it is because everything I say is misinterpreted.

[Goku de la Boca]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not saying that's the case, but we don't know it's not true. I don't see why you just have to invalidate his experience with players in England because you've got experience with players outside of England.

I literally do this in my day to day ffs, quit the fucking disrespect.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Goku de la Boca said:

I literally do this in my day to day ffs, quit the fucking disrespect.

You deal with premier league players in your day to day?

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

You deal with premier league players in your day to day?

Not Premier League but that isn't the point. Players being political and having media training is a universal thing. 

[Goku de la Boca]

So let me put it this way and then I'll quit the complaining because I won't win anyone over since most people here are too proud to admit they are wrong.

if I say "I work in football and I know what happens day to day" that is arrogant. If I justify my actions and say "my opinion isn't the word of god" it's still seen as arrogant. That is literally closing both doors and leaving no way out. It's such a blatant agenda towards me it's sad, especially because I haven't said a SINGLE LIE since I arrived.

If you disrespect me don't expect me to reply nicely and then call me "self centered" when I call you out for it.

Edited January 8 by Goku de la Boca

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Goku de la Boca said:

Not Premier League but that isn't the point. Players being political and having media training is a universal thing. 

Yeah but... literally none of that has any bearing on whether Anglophones don't learn other languages when they move and whether they do. You can point to Gareth Bale and I can point to Josh Doig - meanwhile there's loads of examples of players who came into England and never learned the language, despite not being Anglophones. And that English is the Lingua Franca of the modern day doesn't really change that people who grew up in English speaking countries aren't the only ones who move abroad to different leagues and don't learn the language fully.

You're getting criticism and being called arrogant because you made a sweeping generalisation and then acted arrogantly in response to people saying "this isn't just an Anglophone thing"

[Goku de la Boca]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah but... literally none of that has any bearing on whether Anglophones don't learn other languages when they move and whether they do. You can point to Gareth Bale and I can point to Josh Doig - meanwhile there's loads of examples of players who came into England and never learned the language, despite not being Anglophones. And that English is the Lingua Franca of the modern day doesn't really change that people who grew up in English speaking countries aren't the only ones who move abroad to different leagues and don't learn the language fully.

You're getting criticism and being called arrogant because you made a sweeping generalisation and then acted arrogantly in response to people saying "this isn't just an Anglophone thing"

Quote

This is only a Canada example for what I mean when Anglophones are spoiled. Nobody says you can't learn another language. You just don't need to.

Quote

Anglophones are spoiled. I am not saying they can't learn another language, I'm saying that 99% of the time they don't need to.

Aight, die on that proud hill then.

[Goku de la Boca]

What about my post was lying?

Anglophones do not NEED to learn another language. Germans, Scandinavians, Argentinians, a lot of other Europeans etc. Speak English as a secondary language. Not Thai, not Catalan, not Portuguese, not Japanese. Barring Argentina, not Spanish.

Can Anglophones learn another language? Of course they can. And I know a shit ton of non immigrants who can speak French or Spanish, but it really isn't necessary in most countries. So yes, they are spoiled. This is the 3rd time I'm explaining this and I HOPE it is not the 3rd time it is conveniently ignored.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Aight, die on that proud hill then.

So how's that not arrogance? You're just giving evidence of English being the lingua franca... which nobody in the world is disputing. But how does that explain Carlos Tevez and Luis Suarez playing in England for many years and doing the same as Gareth Bale and not learning the language of where he was living?

Because you work in football so your opinion of the linguistic traits of football players is somehow more weighted than anyone else? Are you now an expert on everything about the mentality of football players because you're a football scout? But also we shouldn't take your opinion as the opinion of God, because... I don't know why that needs to be said. But also we're all wrong and it's disrespectful to question your opinion.

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

So how's that not arrogance? You're just giving evidence of English being the lingua franca... which nobody in the world is disputing. But how does that explain Carlos Tevez and Luis Suarez playing in England for many years and doing the same as Gareth Bale and not learning the language of where he was living?

Because you work in football so your opinion of the linguistic traits of football players is somehow more weighted than anyone else? Are you now an expert on everything about the mentality of football players because you're a football scout? But also we shouldn't take your opinion as the opinion of God, because... I don't know why that needs to be said. But also we're all wrong and it's disrespectful to question your opinion.

This is why your point is invalid - because you're using 2 examples which is extremely generalized. You need to look at my Canada example where less people speak French than in Quebec.

You yourself said it, a lot of footballers are very thick and I can tell you a lot of South Americans do not see the importance of speaking English, which describes why the society is so far back in South America.

Also, Luis Suarez DID learn to speak English, he just forgot later on but when he was in England he didn't speak it badly at all.

[Goku de la Boca]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Because you work in football so your opinion of the linguistic traits of football players is somehow more weighted than anyone else? Are you now an expert on everything about the mentality of football players because you're a football scout? But also we shouldn't take your opinion as the opinion of God, because... I don't know why that needs to be said. But also we're all wrong and it's disrespectful to question your opinion.

The whole reason this started is because TPF disrespected my experience because apparently I am "stereotyping". Don't expect me to not call him out for his BS. Has nothing to do with me thinking I'm right over everything, I never once said that.

Edited January 8 by Goku de la Boca

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Goku de la Boca said:

This is why your point is invalid

This is why people call you arrogant.

My point's not invalid and Suarez never gained fluency, he learned a few basic phrases so he could communicate with teammates and didn't learn English beyond shit to use on the pitch and in training. I guarantee you Bale did the same. And Ben Brereton-Diaz has likely done the same with Spanish.

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is why people call you arrogant.

My point's not invalid and Suarez never gained fluency, he learned a few basic phrases so he could communicate with teammates and didn't learn English beyond shit to use on the pitch and in training. I guarantee you Bale did the same. And Ben Brereton-Diaz has likely done the same with Spanish.

it is invalid because you're generalizing. How can you make such a claim because 1 person refused to learn English in the UK?

Fair enough on Suarez, he likely only learned to speak in pressers, but he learned a hell of a lot more than Tevez.

I will admit people in Latinamerica are lazy to learn English but for the world it is mostly an exception rather than the rule.

[Goku de la Boca]

1/7 of the world population can speak English with only 400 million native speakers. More foreigners speak English than actual native speakers.

The second language I'd consider universal, Spanish, is only spoken by 75M non native speakers. I am not considering Hindi or Mandarin because of their enormous population in just a country mind you, I think they are different examples.

Do we still think English is not universal?

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

it is invalid because you're generalizing. How can you make such a claim because 1 person refused to learn English in the UK?

Fair enough on Suarez, he likely only learned to speak in pressers, but he learned a hell of a lot more than Tevez.

I will admit people in Latinamerica are lazy to learn English but for the world it is mostly an exception rather than the rule.

Didn't you make a generalisation about Anglophones though? My claim was more of a "what about these guys who aren't native English speakers that did the same thing?"

It's more of "a lot of footballers are too lazy to learn a new language for a couple of years" thing than a "this is because of where they were born" - that was my original point. Do you understand where I am coming from now? English being the lingua franca and it being easier for English people to go abroad because more people in other countries speak English might be a factor... but it also might not be considering how rarely it is English born players go play abroad. And in recent years, we've got plenty of examples of English/British players that did go abroad to Germany, Italy, Spain and... did learn the language.

So again I think it's got more to do with individual laziness than players place of origin.

[Stan]

I think the Lukaku picture was where I saw the air of arrogance, to be quite honest. As if you'd won the argument just because people hadn't replied yet at the time...

13 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

it is invalid because you're generalizing

Like how you generalise that footballers are liars or thick? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Do we still think English is not universal?

No, and again, I never doubted that. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca - but again, that doesn't really have any bearing on what we're talking about lol. See post above.

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Didn't you make a generalisation about Anglophones though? My claim was more of a "what about these guys who aren't native English speakers that did the same thing?"

It's more of "a lot of footballers are too lazy to learn a new language for a couple of years" thing than a "this is because of where they were born" - that was my original point. Do you understand where I am coming from now? English being the lingua franca and it being easier for English people to go abroad because more people in other countries speak English might be a factor... but it also might not be considering how rarely it is English born players go play abroad. And in recent years, we've got plenty of examples of English/British players that did go abroad to Germany, Italy, Spain and... did learn the language.

So again I think it's got more to do with individual laziness than players place of origin.

That's a better way to put it and I agree with you in this sense. Tevez is definitely laziness, same with Bielsa on that end. 

Knowing English in football opens so many doors. I'd say after that Spanish and French are the most important. 

Anyways all I said was Anglophones are spoiled. I was sloppy in the way I worded it but English people definitely do NOT need to learn another language. Spanish people also don't need to but only if they want to stay in their bubble which is a lot more limited tbh.

[Goku de la Boca]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

I think the Lukaku picture was where I saw the air of arrogance, to be quite honest. As if you'd won the argument just because people hadn't replied yet at the time...

Like how you generalise that footballers are liars or thick? 

I felt provoked through all angles. I will give you that it was arrogance but I was annoyed. This is not the first time I put a good point and then the other in question disappeared. Bad timing.

[Goku de la Boca]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

Like how you generalise that footballers are liars or thick? 

I never did. My wording was harsh but I was not speaking about everyone, that was your perception.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Goku de la Boca said:

That's a better way to put it and I agree with you in this sense. Tevez is definitely laziness, same with Bielsa on that end. 

Knowing English in football opens so many doors. I'd say after that Spanish and French are the most important. 

Anyways all I said was Anglophones are spoiled. I was sloppy in the way I worded it but English people definitely do NOT need to learn another language. Spanish people also don't need to but only if they want to stay in their bubble which is a lot more limited tbh.

I think all footballers should learn basic things in the language of the country they move to. You've got to be able to understand your manager and any staff that is responsible for training you - and I think putting trust in a translator to accurately do that job is putting a lot of faith in someone who may or may not be totally shit at their job. You've got to be able to understand your teammates and also have them understand you. And I think anyone playing professional football should at least know enough to thank the fans, who give up their hard earned money to see them play.

I always think it's sad, regardless of wherever the person comes from, if they can't be bothered to do that. And very unprofessional.