Tuesday 1st May - Real Madrid (4) 2-2 (3) Bayern Munich (SF 2nd Leg)

[Cicero]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agreed - the league is the mark of who's the best in their country. And in a competitive league, I think that's the bread and butter for big clubs. Which is why I fucking hate how we haven't won the league in forever and have only really contested for it just a few times in decades.

The CL is great and I think it's the best cup tournament in football. But the winner isn't the "best club in Europe" just for winning the European Cup after the final. They're the club that's won the most prestigious cup in Europe, which is a major deal. Whereas with a league table, you can clearly say "this side at the top has objectively done the best."

Hence me alway slating Real for winning the CL, but never the league in the same season. 

Barca have done it on every occasion. Two trebles in fact. 

This shows the true strength of a team. Hence me saying United's treble > the Invincibles

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Cicero said:

Hence me alway slating Real for winning the CL, but never the league in the same season. 

Barca have done it on every occasion. Two trebles in fact. 

This shows the true strength of a team. Hence me saying United's treble > the Invincibles

I don't put too much stock in getting knocked out of the CL... unless that team routinely gets knocked out in early rounds year after year. Because then that's just a sign of that club being bottlers.

But it's very hard to win the CL. You're up against some of the best sides in Europe, and even underdogs play out of their skin to have a chance to win the most prestigious cup in European football (because fuck International football, the standard is never as good and the fans are never as passionate - so it's not the fucking Euro). Great teams can lose, even when they shouldn't on paper. Especially when it's two very big clubs clashing.

And I think that Roma side that knocked out Barca was a very fucking good side. So I don't think there's any shame in Barca getting knocked out in a cup tournament, other than the massive bottle job considering the huge lead they had. But Roma showed they aren't push overs and would go down swinging if they were to be knocked out despite taking a beating from home. And they did that TWICE, against us and Barca. They clearly proved they weren't some random Italian nomarks who didn't deserve to be in the semi-finals.

Likewise, while Real Madrid have struggled in La Liga... and they really have considering the squad they have on paper... they've still done very well to see off incredibly tough opponents throughout the tournament. They saw off Juve and Bayern, who're by far the dominant sides of their country.

I agree with you that winning the league is better than winning the CL. But winning the CL is an incredible achievement. And it is totally mental that they could win it three years in a row and an incredible achievement they're in yet another final.

[Cicero]

I still think Valverde is the reason Barca fucked up against Roma. In fact, there is something about Valverde as a manager that I just don't rate. 

[Carnivore Chris]

34 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Hence me alway slating Real for winning the CL, but never the league in the same season. 

Barca have done it on every occasion. Two trebles in fact. 

This shows the true strength of a team. Hence me saying United's treble > the Invincibles

Definitely, winning a treble can't be matched and the United side of 99 is the best that has been in English football during my time, although at the same time, The invincibles >>>> Chelsea 2012. Chelsea won the Champs league that season but the Arsenal invincibles were brilliant and won the league without suffering a loss, playing some of the nicest football you will ever see in English football. Then again, in this situation, would Chelsea have swapped their Champions league in 2012 for a League that season? After all, it was your first one and will likely mean you go on to win more in the future as it sets the tone.

It's got to be said also that everyone associated with Barcelona will be disappointed to not win more Champions leagues in this current generation(there won't always be players like this at the club, football changes quickly), although on the other hand Real badly want more league titles. Zidane has been saying all season how he wants to win a league more than another Champs league.

 

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't put too much stock in getting knocked out of the CL... unless that team routinely gets knocked out in early rounds year after year. Because then that's just a sign of that club being bottlers.

But it's very hard to win the CL. You're up against some of the best sides in Europe, and even underdogs play out of their skin to have a chance to win the most prestigious cup in European football (because fuck International football, the standard is never as good and the fans are never as passionate - so it's not the fucking Euro). Great teams can lose, even when they shouldn't on paper. Especially when it's two very big clubs clashing.

And I think that Roma side that knocked out Barca was a very fucking good side. So I don't think there's any shame in Barca getting knocked out in a cup tournament, other than the massive bottle job considering the huge lead they had. But Roma showed they aren't push overs and would go down swinging if they were to be knocked out despite taking a beating from home. And they did that TWICE, against us and Barca. They clearly proved they weren't some random Italian nomarks who didn't deserve to be in the semi-finals.

Likewise, while Real Madrid have struggled in La Liga... and they really have considering the squad they have on paper... they've still done very well to see off incredibly tough opponents throughout the tournament. They saw off Juve and Bayern, who're by far the dominant sides of their country.

I agree with you that winning the league is better than winning the CL. But winning the CL is an incredible achievement. And it is totally mental that they could win it three years in a row and an incredible achievement they're in yet another final.

This could be massive for you if you win this as it will attract more players, enable you to keep the current crop(which is very important now, you need to get away from selling) and maybe go on to start seriously challenging for the Premier League title again, and even winning it. Klopp has won leagues with a club who had less resources than another back in Germany, so he can do it again with Liverpool coming up against the might of City.

[Samuel Eto'o]

20 minutes ago, The Rebel CRS said:

 

It's got to be said also that everyone associated with Barcelona will be disappointed to not win more Champions leagues in this current generation(there won't always be players like this at the club, football changes quickly), although on the other hand Real badly want more league titles. Zidane has been saying all season how he wants to win a league more than another Champs league.

That's the thing though mate. Actions speak louder than words. Just because that's his mantra doesn't mean he necessarily believes it. He's just pandering to and playing to the press. Telling them what they want to hear. 

Zidane's a cunning wily fox: it could also be that he wants to deflect attention away from Madrid's desire to win the Champions League at any cost (losing la liga). The Champions League/European Cup will always come first and foremost to Real Madrid. La Liga is just a means to that very end.

If he really wants the league more than another Champions, results and rotations would indicate that. They have not, so we know what his priorities are. 

They've had by far the deepest bench in world football for quite some time now. The fact that they haven't come close to winning a treble tells you all you need to know about priorities. 

It also suggests just how great the Barca teams to achieve that very feat (twice, thus far) truly were. Merits "Greatest Club Seasons of All Time Across the Major European Leagues" consideration.

[SirBalon]

11 minutes ago, Paulo Dybala said:

That's the thing though mate. Actions speak louder than words. Just because that's his mantra doesn't mean he necessarily believes it. He's just pandering to and playing to the press. Telling them what they want to hear. 

Zidane's a cunning wily fox: it could also be that he wants to deflect attention away from Madrid's desire to win the Champions League at any cost (losing la liga). The Champions League/European Cup will always come first and foremost to Real Madrid. La Liga is just a means to that very end.

If he really wants the league more than another Champions, results and rotations would indicate that. They have not, so we know what his priorities are. 

They've had by far the deepest bench in world football for quite some time now. The fact that they haven't come close to winning a treble tells you all you need to know about priorities. 

It also suggests just how great the Barca teams to achieve that very feat (twice, thus far) truly were. Merits "Greatest Club Seasons of All Time Across the Major European Leagues" consideration.

Because Real Madrid lost La Liga at the end of October and at the club they knew this. This is why everything was put into gunning for the Champions League. The season and its timeline has to be taken into perspective in odd cases such as these. This is Real's worst season since the 70s.

[bozziovai]

2 hours ago, The Rebel CRS said:

. 16 points behind is terrible.

 

c'mon what do you mean by terrible ??  that's just too light a word.    hideous. repulsive.  nauseating.   that would be best for Madrid's form in the league.  

but as i've read all the discussions, there's one common theme that we can't discern which trophy is bigger than the other.    the league trophy or the CL silverware.      on one hand we say the league weighs heavier coz you have to be consistent for 38 games, winning matchday after matchday but the other argument is that if you stumble this week, you can always make up the loss on the following matchdays and hope that your rival will falter too.        while on the CL, you are up against not the best in europe but those of the top 4 or 3 teams in their respective leagues.    In the group stages alone, we've seen surprises where favourite teams fail to qualify.   but the most challenging part of the CL is the knock out stages, this year we've seen City disposed of by the weaker ( no offense liverpool fans ) Liverpool side and barca was unceremoniously offed by Roma.     We can't say that Barca is the best since they've been beaten by Roma and we can't say Roma is better than Barca coz they're 3rd in Serie A.     That's the biggest paradox in football.

[ASF]

6 hours ago, The Rebel CRS said:

This isn't a case of caring more about the league than the Champions league mate. It's a case of a team that should be fighting for BOTH.

Real Madrid have been able to pamper and rest all their players before and after every Champions League game, while teams such as Barcelona were having to play their strongest line-up for 90 minutes, 3 times a week, due to being in 3 competitions still. Fighting for 3 competitions(one being over 38 gruelling games) is far more difficult than putting all your eggs into one basket and focusing on one competition.

Have you ever worked on a bank holiday week before where you have the Monday off? Then have you ever done a full 7 days in a week? The difference in tiredness and fatigue at the end of both of those weeks is HUGE. If Barcelona, or even City, were able to have half of a season off and pamper and rest all their key players before every Champs league game, then they would likely have no problems at all in reaching the final.

Real Madrid's season has been a half arsed one, by their standards, in which they would simply be covering up the cracks by winning a Champions league, a competition they haven't even been convincing in at that. They were out of 2 competitions by Christmas and are now able to put all their focus into the one tournament. I mean, how can you be the best in Europe when you're barely 3rd best in your country?

As for Liverpool, their situation is different. It's been a fantastic season on their behalf as they aren't title challengers, don't have the strongest squad in world football and weren't expected to win anything at the start of the season, whereas Real have the strongest squad in the world, they have players on their bench who would even walk into Barcelona's starting 11, yet they can't even compete for their league over 38 games? It's still a success to win the Champions league in their situation, although for me it's not more of an achievement than winning a domestic double undefeated, not if you win the Champs league at the expense of being 16 points behind the leaders. It's not like they are second and 3 points behind, they are miles away.

If winning the Champs league and being miles behind in your league is what makes a team great, then what is the point of domestic football? They may as well just scrap it altogether and create a European Super League.

 

As for Liverpool, they have been fantastic in this tournament and the by far best team in every round they have played. Play great football, score a lot goals and Salah is an absolute beast to watch, well, their front 3 have been in general. They will have to up their game defensively though in the final.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're the best in Europe because you win the most difficult competition there is.

In a league, you have two/three teams fighting for the title (in some leagues, considered important, like the Bundesliga, the Ligue 1 (Monaco from last season aside), Serie A, you have the same team winning it every single year). What's the point and what status does it give you to win a league where, unless a solar eclipse happens, the same team wins it all the time?

Whereas in the CL you have 8-10 teams with the capacity to win the title, which increases the difficulty to win it.

Mate, and the CL over a domestic double. That's not even a question. Barça's season ended with a sour grape, for not being capable to have a shot at the CL in Kiev. It turned out to be a bit of a frustrating season, in that aspect. 

 

5 hours ago, Cicero said:

Crazy to think how it took Real 12 years to win their CL title against Atletico. They've now won 2 in 3 years, potentially 3 in 4 

Unless it's a fairly one sided league, the league title should always be seen as the main priority of silverware. It is the pinnacle and mark of a great team. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agreed - the league is the mark of who's the best in their country. And in a competitive league, I think that's the bread and butter for big clubs. Which is why I fucking hate how we haven't won the league in forever and have only really contested for it just a few times in decades.

The CL is great and I think it's the best cup tournament in football. But the winner isn't the "best club in Europe" just for winning the European Cup after the final. They're the club that's won the most prestigious cup in Europe, which is a major deal. Whereas with a league table, you can clearly say "this side at the top has objectively done the best."

Most leagues are one sided, these days, bar a few. Even top leagues, like the German, the Italian, the French have become one sided in recent years. 

In England this doesn't happen. You have 4-6 teams with a shot at the title, which makes you feel a deeper feeling of greater achievement, when you win the league.

[Carnivore Chris]

16 hours ago, ASF said:

 

In a league, you have two/three teams fighting for the title (in some leagues, considered important, like the Bundesliga, the Ligue 1 (Monaco from last season aside), Serie A, you have the same team winning it every single year). What's the point and what status does it give you to win a league where, unless a solar eclipse happens, the same team wins it all the time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest mate, If Real win the Champions league this year then 8 out of the last 12 finals would have been won by the same 2 clubs(Barcelona and Real with 4 each), while 2 of the others were both English.

Not to mention, Spain have absolutely dominated the UEFA Cup during this time. If Atletico do it again this year, then just like the Champs league, 8 of the last 12 winners would be from Spain, Sevilla and Atletico sharing them all between them. Winning La Liga isn't like winning Liga Sagres or the Dutch league(with all due respects to those leagues), it's not like winning the German and French ones either. When was the last time a German team won anything in a European competition other than Bayern? Germany has seen no finalists in the Europa league in the last 15 years(in fact 20 years!!!!!), while Spain has even seen clubs like Alaves and Espanyol reach a final(along with Athletic Bilbao), with 3 teams going on and winning it in Sevilla(x5), Atletico(x2, possibly 3 this year) and Valencia. It's not an easy league to win, so when you do win it, it's something to celebrate.

I do get your point though mate as the Champions league of today is the biggest competition in football full stop for me(all the best players in Europe play in it), although I've always been a firm believer that in order to have "bragging rights" in Europe, you need to also win your league with the Champs league. That's not to say it isn't an achievement, just not the real deal.

Either way, I wouldn't swap what Barcelona have done over the last decade for what Real have done during this period. I also wouldn't swap their season this season for Barcelona's as all the hard work over 60 games would seem pointless otherwise. I would swap Real Madrid's season this year to Barcelona's of last season though.