The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

i find it insulting when people conflate the Israel/Palastine issue with that of Nazi Germany, the Pogroms and what the Arabs have been doing to Christians over the years.

having great grand parents survive the holocaust I find it repugnant to even compare Israel to Nazi Germany.

the Hamas official mandate is to destroy Israel and kill every Jew, Hamas is well supported by the people.  

th ere have been chances to resolve and find peace but you can blame Yassr Arafat for that.

[OrangeKhrush]

On 07/11/2023 at 01:04, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's 290 casualties - because the wounded still count as casualties I believe, which is still a lot for the IDF considering they haven't been in Gaza for too long. They use robots/drones to go into the tunnels first to clear out booby traps - so modern equipment absolutely helps. And yes, they send dogs down the tunnels to to root them out.

Israel will absolutely defeat Hamas, and they've got the benefit of being able to hold back a bit and going back to airstrikes and artillery fire if the IDF gets bogged down. Just a question of how long it's going to take and what's going to happen next, really.

I'd say spare the dogs, they are not worth being hurt or killed over Hamas.   For me the best solution is to blast through to the ocean and drown them or use some good ol Willy Pete.

[Rucksackfranzose]

29 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

i find it insulting when people conflate the Israel/Palastine issue with that of Nazi Germany, the Pogroms and what the Arabs have been doing to Christians over the years.

having great grand parents survive the holocaust I find it repugnant to even compare Israel to Nazi Germany.

the Hamas official mandate is to destroy Israel and kill every Jew, Hamas is well supported by the people.  

th ere have been chances to resolve and find peace but you can blame Yassr Arafat for that.

Again a very ideosyncratic take of history.

Edit: You mean eg the denominational parity in the Arab country Lebanon? And that's not even taking into account that numerous Arabs are Christians themselfes.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I'd say spare the dogs, they are not worth being hurt or killed over Hamas.   For me the best solution is to blast through to the ocean and drown them or use some good ol Willy Pete.

You fucking love war crimes don’t you 

[Stan]

 

 

[6666]

18 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I'd say spare the dogs, they are not worth being hurt or killed over Hamas.   For me the best solution is to blast through to the ocean and drown them or use some good ol Willy Pete.

I wonder why so many people compare the Israeli government and their supporters to Nazis. It's baffling...

[OrangeKhrush]

28 minutes ago, 6666 said:

I wonder why so many people compare the Israeli government and their supporters to Nazis. It's baffling...

your humility towards people who swore and oath to kill in the name of Islam every Jew, these people that recorded their brutality for the world to see and now you act like they deserve some kindness.

not even the Nazis wanted the world to see their dirty laundry.  killing terrorists is not the same as what the Nazis and the SS did

[OrangeKhrush]

17 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You fucking love war crimes don’t you 

if America could get away with it in Tehran and Syria then why would it seem to be a problem when dealing with indoctrinated killers

[OrangeKhrush]

18 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Again a very ideosyncratic take of history.

Edit: You mean eg the denominational parity in the Arab country Lebanon? And that's not even taking into account that numerous Arabs are Christians themselfes.

 

Arabs is a broad term but I'm talking about the persecution of Christian Arabs  or black Christians is Islam dominated states from the 1800s to Current, the same persecution of Jewish Arabs prior to the state of Israel was well documented.

Israel is also the only middle eastern state that is democratic and upholds civil liberties of constitutional democracy, and despite Jews being conservative in nature they have accepted modern complexities like LGBTQ and the balance between customs and changing society.

Palastine is much closer to Nazi Germany in that there is complete intolerance to non Islamic customs, persecution and murder of Christians, Jews, LGBTQ, migrants is right up nazi boulevard

 

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Israel is also the only middle eastern state that is democratic and upholds civil liberties of constitutional democracy, and despite Jews being conservative in nature they have accepted modern complexities like LGBTQ and the balance between customs and changing society.

 

Civil liberties?

Like the ones where Israelis are literally evicting Palestinians from their own homes on the spot and taking over their homes?

Like bombing hospitals and mosques? Like bombing the fuck out of places they told people to go for 'safety'?

 

Ah what amazing liberties those people must be enjoying!!!

[OrangeKhrush]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

Civil liberties?

Like the ones where Israelis are literally evicting Palestinians from their own homes on the spot and taking over their homes?

Like bombing hospitals and mosques? Like bombing the fuck out of places they told people to go for 'safety'?

 

Ah what amazing liberties those people must be enjoying!!!

1) I'll conceded the land disputes in the west bank are problematic.

 

2) and 3) are war time actions and per reports Israel has driven Hamas out of northern Gaza while dealing significant damage to their organisational structure.  Resistance has subsided in northern Gaza.

they also only happened because of October 7.  

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

1) I'll conceded the land disputes in the west bank are problematic.

 

2) and 3) are war time actions and per reports Israel has driven Hamas out of northern Gaza while dealing significant damage to their organisational structure.  Resistance has subsided in northern Gaza.

they also only happened because of October 7.  

So nothing before October 7th is relevant? 

Are you genuinely in favour of Israel bombing hospitals? Isn't that a war crime in itself?

[Tommy]

Ah yes, another OrangeKhrush is clearly out of his depth yet comments on everything topic. 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

So nothing before October 7th is relevant? 

Are you genuinely in favour of Israel bombing hospitals? Isn't that a war crime in itself?

the hospital in question was a ruse, used to cover up a sub terranean base of operations.   The attack killed prominant leadership for Hamas's military wing.  The Geneva conventions state that when civilian buildings are occupied by military combatants they become targets of opportunity.   

I think you and others here are he'll bent and making Palastine a victim in a war where there are no sides but due to wanting to appear self righteous you overlook every fucking wrong Palastine does.   Hamas has over 5000 child soldiers, they have taken over Hamas operation camps in liberated areas with propaganda videos to indoctrinate youth into Islamic extremism.   

There is no such thing as a good war, but the war came about due to the actions of Palastine.   This would not happen if October 7 didn't happen, and if it did I would outright denounce the actions.

Palastine will be free when Hamas is killed to the very last man, or child in this case when the ideology is crushed, then Palastinians will be free.

I would equate Palastine liberation to Rome conquering Gaul.  They offered the Gauls peace in exchange for gaul pledging fielty to Rome, in exchange for power, Gauls would be given Roman citizenship and technology advances.   Vercengetrix the warlord chose to fight and when he was beaten at Alessia Gaul flourished under Rome, the idea of feilty to a war Lord was washed away as Roman life was much better.  When Hamas is killed off to the last, the Palastinians will know freedom.

[Stan]

Correction - 'hell bent on making Palestine civilians a victim in a war'

I will happily never back down from that position. Thanks.

 

I do not overlook every wrong Palestine does, because these civilians are not to blame. They do not deserve the life that has been forced down and oppressed on them by Hamas and certainly not by Israel. But hey, I guess your answer to that is why not just create an uprising, right? So easy!

5000 child soldiers? What is your proof here? What is your evidence for these underground ops? 

Funnily enough I don't think you would 'outright denounce the actions' of Israel. You would just find another way to circumvent it and continue to make excuses for them and their actions.  

[Rucksackfranzose]

20 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

the hospital in question was a ruse, used to cover up a sub terranean base of operations.   The attack killed prominant leadership for Hamas's military wing.  The Geneva conventions state that when civilian buildings are occupied by military combatants they become targets of opportunity.   

I think you and others here are he'll bent and making Palastine a victim in a war where there are no sides but due to wanting to appear self righteous you overlook every fucking wrong Palastine does.   Hamas has over 5000 child soldiers, they have taken over Hamas operation camps in liberated areas with propaganda videos to indoctrinate youth into Islamic extremism.   

There is no such thing as a good war, but the war came about due to the actions of Palastine.   This would not happen if October 7 didn't happen, and if it did I would outright denounce the actions.

Palastine will be free when Hamas is killed to the very last man, or child in this case when the ideology is crushed, then Palastinians will be free.

I would equate Palastine liberation to Rome conquering Gaul.  They offered the Gauls peace in exchange for gaul pledging fielty to Rome, in exchange for power, Gauls would be given Roman citizenship and technology advances.   Vercengetrix the warlord chose to fight and when he was beaten at Alessia Gaul flourished under Rome, the idea of feilty to a war Lord was washed away as Roman life was much better.  When Hamas is killed off to the last, the Palastinians will know freedom.

Don't know were that's from but it's outright wrong. Gaul would have been given the status of a province but, no Roman citizenship. Not even people in the Italian provinces, like eg Etrurians, had Roman citizenship automatically. By the way, Rome invaded Gaul unprovoced. Also Gaul didn't flourish under Rome, but a region that was very rich beforehand, which is the reason Romans invaded it uppermost, has been melked ruthlessly. Oh, while you claim to be a jurist I studied old history at university.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

if America could get away with it in Tehran and Syria then why would it seem to be a problem when dealing with indoctrinated killers

I don’t think it’s been used on Tehran, are you thinking Baghdad?

Also that’s also absolute dogshit logic, by the way, you must recognise that? Who’s in charge of Iran and Syria now? The same people who’ve been in charge for decades?

So your evidence of war crimes stopping indoctrinated killers is: use on two places where if they were used has done fuck all to stop indoctrinated killers.

You know why the US and Israel get away with war crimes right? Same reason Russia does.

If constant dehumanisation of a group of people hasn’t worked so far in bringing peace, I’m not sure upping the ante will work either.

[OrangeKhrush]

47 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Don't know were that's from but it's outright wrong. Gaul would have been given the status of a province but, no Roman citizenship. Not even people in the Italian provinces, like eg Etrurians, had Roman citizenship automatically. By the way, Rome invaded Gaul unprovoced. Also Gaul didn't flourish under Rome, but a region that was very rich beforehand, which is the reason Romans invaded it uppermost, has been melked ruthlessly. Oh, while you claim to be a jurist I studied old history at university.

They would have been given the title of ius gentium (law of the provinces) which has mostly all the same rights as the ius civile that was for Romans. 

From Roman conquest spread Roman life which gave people who were barbarians the advances of Roman development from education, architecture, medicine, politics and Rule of Law.  Europe was shaped by Rome, and through it the very western systems we take for granted today derive from Roman origin,  mostly all western legal systems, commercial systems are based on Roman Law.   

[OrangeKhrush]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don’t think it’s been used on Tehran, are you thinking Baghdad?

Also that’s also absolute dogshit logic, by the way, you must recognise that? Who’s in charge of Iran and Syria now? The same people who’ve been in charge for decades?

So your evidence of war crimes stopping indoctrinated killers is: use on two places where if they were used has done fuck all to stop indoctrinated killers.

You know why the US and Israel get away with war crimes right? Same reason Russia does.

If constant dehumanisation of a group of people hasn’t worked so far in bringing peace, I’m not sure upping the ante will work either.

The latest is that Israel has driven Hamas out of Northern Gaza and Gaza City,  the next step is to allow UN Peacekeepers and aides to come in to retake the population,  however Israel has requested support with missile intercept systems as they fear hamas will open fire on their own now they have absolutely nothing left to lose but utter destruction.   

This conflict will end soon,  Israel did what every expert on military tactics stated they will do,  hit hard and unrelenting without quarter,  force resistance to break then take control.   

The question going forward is what happens to Palastine,  is Palastine better served by allowing Israel to act as temporary stewards under UN support up until a legitimate government and democratic vote can be made?   

I think a ceasefire would have amounted to a worse humanitarian crisis as it would have allowed hamas to stay in control,  the only way Palastine will be free is if the extremists are dealt with,  with extreme prejudice. 

 

[Rucksackfranzose]

3 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

They would have been given the title of ius gentium (law of the provinces) which has mostly all the same rights as the ius civile that was for Romans. 

From Roman conquest spread Roman life which gave people who were barbarians the advances of Roman development from education, architecture, medicine, politics and Rule of Law.  Europe was shaped by Rome, and through it the very western systems we take for granted today derive from Roman origin,  mostly all western legal systems, commercial systems are based on Roman Law.   

Except Gaulish were far from being barbarians in the sense you use it here. Mostly the same rights with the important exception that they were alloweed to be crucified and could be enslaved.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

13 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Except Gaulish were far from being barbarians in the sense you use it here. Mostly the same rights with the important exception that they were alloweed to be crucified and could be enslaved.

 

Crucifixion was the capital punishment for people that stood against the Law of the Nations,  for example Titus and his rebellion were all crucified for seditious acts against Rome,  this exists today any persons seeking to topple a state (state is not a government as many misunderstand it to be) is punishable by the harshest penalties.   

People of the provinces were treated as citizens,  often there was some trade off,  for example men would serve in the Roman Legions, be paid to become professional soldiers,  the woman would work mills, farms etc and contribute towards the continuance of Rome's expanding empire.   Those that opposed this were quelled and punished ergo not treated as part of the system but rebellion. 

In the end you cannot sit there and give any instance of Gaul, Germania, North Africa, Middle East being worse off,  it is why the Roman empire lasted as long as it did and only collapsed following corruption at the core resulting in the provinces deciding to become self governed or in the case of Gaul,  becoming its own nation,  or the development of Frankish customs which shaped the development of what will become France. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Crucifixion was the capital punishment for people that stood against the Law of the Nations,  for example Titus and his rebellion were all crucified for seditious acts against Rome,  this exists today any persons seeking to topple a state (state is not a government as many misunderstand it to be) is punishable by the harshest penalties.   

People of the provinces were treated as citizens,  often there was some trade off,  for example men would serve in the Roman Legions, be paid to become professional soldiers,  the woman would work mills, farms etc and contribute towards the continuance of Rome's expanding empire.   Those that opposed this were quelled and punished ergo not treated as part of the system but rebellion. 

In the end you cannot sit there and give any instance of Gaul, Germania, North Africa, Middle East being worse off,  it is why the Roman empire lasted as long as it did and only collapsed following corruption at the core resulting in the provinces deciding to become self governed or in the case of Gaul,  becoming its own nation,  or the development of Frankish customs which shaped the development of what will become France. 

Is this a jurist trying to lecture an old historian about old history?

 

[6666]

6 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

your humility towards people who swore and oath to kill in the name of Islam every Jew, these people that recorded their brutality for the world to see and now you act like they deserve some kindness.

not even the Nazis wanted the world to see their dirty laundry.  killing terrorists is not the same as what the Nazis and the SS did

Don't commit genocide or oppress people = Why do you want all the Jews to die?

This type of ridiculous twisting of people's words has been how Israel and its supporters have been trying to silence critics for decades but it doesn't really work anymore.

Trying to suggest that every single person in Gaza should die does once again paint you as very Nazi-ish though.

Try as you might, you're not gonna be able to justify Israel's many crimes (crimes which also led to the creation of Hamas).

Without being mean, you're really not a good person. Violently bigoted and not that bright.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The latest is that Israel has driven Hamas out of Northern Gaza and Gaza City,  the next step is to allow UN Peacekeepers and aides to come in to retake the population,  however Israel has requested support with missile intercept systems as they fear hamas will open fire on their own now they have absolutely nothing left to lose but utter destruction.   

This conflict will end soon,  Israel did what every expert on military tactics stated they will do,  hit hard and unrelenting without quarter,  force resistance to break then take control.   

The question going forward is what happens to Palastine,  is Palastine better served by allowing Israel to act as temporary stewards under UN support up until a legitimate government and democratic vote can be made?   

I think a ceasefire would have amounted to a worse humanitarian crisis as it would have allowed hamas to stay in control,  the only way Palastine will be free is if the extremists are dealt with,  with extreme prejudice. 

 

That’s got fuck all to do with what I said. I’ve already said there’s no point in a ceasefire with Hamas. I know what “governments” like Hamas are like.

I just question the methods Israel are using in their war on extremism. Because victims of war crimes typically end up more extreme than ever before.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Is this a jurist trying to lecture an old historian about old history?

 

I imagine you’re using jurist with the loosest possible definition you can