The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

like none of this is actually true,  this is just delirium.    Jews have lived with Bedouins and Druze for millennia,  there are also nigh on 3m Arabs in Israel who all live peacefully.   This is not an Arab/Jew thing this is an Ideological thing.    they chose the path of conflict long before 1947  it dates back to Mohammed,  the false god/prophet that was rejected and humiliated by Jews so he built a religion premised on the destruction of Jews,  the same ideology exists today,  it is a cycle of self ruin,  they are now feeling the consequences of their malevolence. 

The path to peace is oh so very simple,  accept Israel instead of trying to destroy Israel,  accept as part of the middle east and work together for the betterment of the region.  

 

Most of the time as a minority, though. It's easy not to go on a genozidal killing streak, if you're outnumbered.

[OrangeKhrush]

14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Collective punishment is not the cop out term. We've seen it before with Gaza and Lebanon - civilian deaths are considered acceptable as long as one known terrorist is killed, even within refugee camps and aid stations. That is the definition of collective punishment. That second sentence there... is not great reasoning tbh. Just because Israel has refrained from systematic destruction of the Palestinians amounting to the same sort of mass murder we've seen in the Holocaust and Armenian genocide... this does not make Israeli human rights violations and war crimes acceptable by any means.

You are right that within Lebanon, there are many who don't like Hezbollah. But have you looked at the actual numbers of how many Lebanese people support Hezbollah or view them as the lesser of three evils (the evils being: Hezbollah, Lebanon's dogshit army that is worthless, and Israel)? It's staggering.

The target of the attack today was an entire apartment complex - a lot of civilians will have died, been injured, or lost their homes. I'm sure Israel knows this and decided it is worth the blowback the attack will cause. I think it is once again Israeli leadership being shortsighted.

I think expecting a full scale attack and invasion of Iran by the US is hopeful at best. Iran isn't Iraq, go look at a map that shows the topography. It is a tough place to invade - it would make the Iraq war and Afghanistan war look like a piece of piss in comparison. I also think invasion would do more to pull Iran's public support more to the IR than not. Iran's government is unpopular with Iranians - but the idea of foreign invasion is also very unpopular. Anything other than assassinations of government officials and sepahis and very targeted strikes (like the 2 recent strikes on Iranian facilities) would likely prompt massive outrage against the attackers. It's the rally-around-the-flag effect; even hardcore Shah loyalists in the military happily fought against Saddam Hussein's invading force to protect the revolutionary government.

If you want to see change in Iran that leads to a more peaceful Middle East, you want Khamenei and sepahi higher ups dead ASAP. I think once he dies there will be a massive power struggle, there's enough domestic chaos in Iran and lack of support in the current system of government for that to be realistic.

Meanwhile, you think the Houthis can survive if the IR isn't there to prop them up? That's laughable tbh, the Houthis greatest asset is they're in a terrain that is tough to bomb and they're receiving weaponry and training from Iran (and now Russia).

Collective punishment is a corner stone of Islam,  the hadith call on killing those that are not servants of mohammed,  it commands the extermination of Jews and others and is the bedrock of islamism today.    The problem started long before the british mandate and will continue for long after if it is allowed to be normalised. 

In Palastine under Al Aqsa TV is a kids program called tomorrows pioneers,  it is a sesame street styled kids program that normalised martyrdom and killing Jews,  this is engrained into their society,  when it becomes an ideology it becomes violent and perpetuates that.   

Nazism remained after WW2 but it was eventually strangled out of standard society.   The same can be done.    

[OrangeKhrush]

7 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Most of the time as a minority, though. It's easy not to go on a genozidal killing streak, if you're outnumbered.

Nazi's were outnumbered in German society,  they used fear to intimidate the masses.    As for Druze and Jews and bedouins they were the majority in the Levant up until forced displacement was considered a cool thing to do.  They are the majority of Israel today and yet you dont' see muslims murdered in Israel.   You do however see Muslims murdering non muslim Arabs everywhere else. 

[OrangeKhrush]

It took a while for Hezbollah to confirm it but Israel knew he was dead,  they knew where he was and probably had surveillance.   There is no place to hide.   He was mouthing off just days prior.    Who is next?

America is in this passivity phase but they knew,  they provided the field testing of the GBU57 used in the strike,  and it has some zip.   America has been planning a war against Iran for months,  one that is based on penetrating Irans tunnel network. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

33 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Nazi's were outnumbered in German society,  they used fear to intimidate the masses.    As for Druze and Jews and bedouins they were the majority in the Levant up until forced displacement was considered a cool thing to do.  They are the majority of Israel today and yet you dont' see muslims murdered in Israel.   You do however see Muslims murdering non muslim Arabs everywhere else. 

Ahem, no. Using " Meyer's  Großes "Konversationslexikon"  of 1898 as a source: Inhabitants of the Osmanic province of Syria: about 2 Mio, Jews 65k.

The 5 livases, that formed Palästina: about 650k, Jews mostly freshly inmigrated from Europe 65k. But I'm sure you talking out of your arse are knowing better than an encyclopedia from 1898.

It's bad luck. I've got this encyclopedia at home and was therefore able to fact check your claim. I'll give you that.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Rucksackfranzose

[Spike]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Nazi's were outnumbered in German society,  they used fear to intimidate the masses.    As for Druze and Jews and bedouins they were the majority in the Levant up until forced displacement was considered a cool thing to do.  They are the majority of Israel today and yet you dont' see muslims murdered in Israel.   You do however see Muslims murdering non muslim Arabs everywhere else. 

So you’re saying that Israel outnumbered in the middle-east is analogous to Nazis being outnumbered in Germany?

[OrangeKhrush]

44 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Ahem, no. Using " Meyer's  Großes "Konversationslexikon"  of 1898 as a source: Inhabitants of the Osmanic province of Syria: about 2 Mio, Jews 65k.

The 5 livases, that formed Palästina: about 650k, Jews mostly freshly inmigrated from Europe 65k. But I'm sure you talking out of your arse are knowing better than an encyclopedia from 1898.

It's bad luck. I've got this encyclopedia at home and was therefore able to fact check your claim. I'll give you that.

 

It is 2024,  Israel is majority Jewish, Druze, Bedouin with Muslims making up the minority,  why are you referencing the colonial province of the Ottoman empire.  Province of Syria included Syria, Lebanon, parts of Iraq and Jordan,  Israel and the Sinai.  In the Levant of historical Judea and Samaria the population was at most 100 000 people,  the region was infested with disease,  infertile due to salted marshes and it was only after the turn of the century that there was inward migration due to cures and agricultural advances brought by Jews from Europe. 

[OrangeKhrush]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

So you’re saying that Israel outnumbered in the middle-east is analogous to Nazis being outnumbered in Germany?

Not at all,   it is the many islamist groups that surround israel that have the destruction and murder as their objective,  there is no such mandate or manifesto in Israel,  one is an extremist group (like the nazis) and the other is a nation state.  As stated Jews and Arabs live together in peace ergo it is not a Jew/Arab issue it is an ideological issue.    

The nazi's were a minor ideology but they used fear and intimidation to get power,  much like how Hezbollah stole Lebanon from the majority Lebanese despite being remnants of the PLO.    The Houthis in Yemen are the same thing,  a minority injected into the region to destabilise the region and do the biding of the puppet master in Iran.    Iran wants regional hegemony,   islamism is the tool for it. 

[Spike]

 

12 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Not at all,   it is the many islamist groups that surround israel that have the destruction and murder as their objective,  there is no such mandate or manifesto in Israel,  one is an extremist group (like the nazis) and the other is a nation state.  As stated Jews and Arabs live together in peace ergo it is not a Jew/Arab issue it is an ideological issue.    

The nazi's were a minor ideology but they used fear and intimidation to get power,  much like how Hezbollah stole Lebanon from the majority Lebanese despite being remnants of the PLO.    The Houthis in Yemen are the same thing,  a minority injected into the region to destabilise the region and do the biding of the puppet master in Iran.    Iran wants regional hegemony,   islamism is the tool for it. 

 

8

 

2,560 × 1,440

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Spike

[Azeem]

a minority injected in to the region to destabilise the region and do the biding of the puppet master who wants regional hegemony.

That's literally Israel and U.S 

[Rucksackfranzose]

38 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

It is 2024,  Israel is majority Jewish, Druze, Bedouin with Muslims making up the minority,  why are you referencing the colonial province of the Ottoman empire.  Province of Syria included Syria, Lebanon, parts of Iraq and Jordan,  Israel and the Sinai.  In the Levant of historical Judea and Samaria the population was at most 100 000 people,  the region was infested with disease,  infertile due to salted marshes and it was only after the turn of the century that there was inward migration due to cures and agricultural advances brought by Jews from Europe. 

Well, the encyclopedia gives 650k for the 5 Palestine livases, which is 6 and a half times more than you give without any source. By the way the historic term "Levant" includes  Lebanon, Jordan and parts of Syria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant

Again you 've got no idea what you're talking about. I've recommanded to read up some things before you're claiming factually false. Opinion is indeed an insufficient substitute for knowledge.

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Nazi's were outnumbered in German society,  they used fear to intimidate the masses.    As for Druze and Jews and bedouins they were the majority in the Levant up until forced displacement was considered a cool thing to do.  They are the majority of Israel today and yet you dont' see muslims murdered in Israel.   You do however see Muslims murdering non muslim Arabs everywhere else. 

So now, you canged the tune, trying to overplay you made a false claim.

Edited 9 hours ago by Rucksackfranzose

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Azeem said:

a minority injected in to the region to destabilise the region and do the biding of the puppet master who wants regional hegemony.

That's literally Israel and U.S 

Also the implication that it's okay because this isn't an ethnic problem it's an ideological problem What a profoundly stupid thing to say.

[Spike]

Arab and Israelis live 'peacefully;

'This isn't an ethnic issue'

https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/30/israel-new-laws-marginalize-palestinian-arab-citizens

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arabs-israel-stay-sidelines-raging-democracy-battle-2023-07-26/

https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/2024/02/the-many-civil-and-human-rights-challenges-facing-israels-palestinian-citizens?lang=en

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

@Azeem@Rucksackfranzose@OrangeKhrush Here is some more reading material to be ignored.

[Azeem]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

Also the implication that it's okay because this isn't an ethnic problem it's an ideological problem  

If what he's saying was true that Arabs/Muslims were 'ideologically driven' to exterminate Jews. They probably would've been exterminated by now since Muslims held political power for centuries over vast regions where Jews lived.

In fact historically it's quite opposite. Jews were relatively ok with Muslim rule because unlike Christian empires who saw them as 'killers of Christ' etc they didn't had any outright ideologically driven animosity with them. Sure it wasn't all nice but still better than what was happening to them elsewhere. One Jewish professor, David Wasserstein, wrote his whole thesis on this that rise of Muslims saved Jewry because they got a breathing space. Sure they demanded jizya tax but what were others offering to live under their political rule ?

Rucksack raised a good point that it's easy to not go full genocidal when you are a minority. Everyone is nice until they get political power

 

 

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, Azeem said:

If what he's saying was true that Arabs/Muslims were 'ideologically driven' to exterminate Jews. They probably would've been exterminated by now since Muslims held political power for centuries over vast regions where Jews lived.

In fact historically it's quite opposite. Jews were relatively ok with Muslim rule because unlike Christian empires who saw them as 'killers of Christ' etc they didn't had any outright ideologically driven animosity with them. Sure it wasn't all nice but still better than what was happening to them elsewhere. One Jewish professor, David Wasserstein, wrote his whole thesis on this that rise of Muslims saved Jewry because they got a breathing space. Sure they demanded jizya tax but what were others offering to live under their political rule ?

Rucksack raised a good point that it's easy to not go full genocidal when you are a minority. Everyone is nice until they get political power

 

 

 It is an interesting interpretation for sure, and definitely makes sense, especially juxtaposed with how Christianity survived in Muslamic Spain, but Islam didn’t survive in Christian Spain post-reconquista. Of course this is just a microcosm of history and Al-Andalus of the Ummayads is a world and a long ti e apart from the Abasssids in the near east, but the parallels are interesting for sure. 

I’m sure you can fill me in, but is the ultra-orthodox, aggressive converting, and hostile manifestation of Islam a reaction of post-partition Ottomon Empire?  I feel like I don’t read or know about these traits in Africa or Pakistan for instance.

[Azeem]

27 minutes ago, Spike said:

I’m sure you can fill me in, but is the ultra-orthodox, aggressive converting, and hostile manifestation of Islam a reaction of post-partition Ottomon Empire?  I feel like I don’t read or know about these traits in Africa or Pakistan for instance.

In my opinion it does have a role.

 

29 minutes ago, Spike said:

 It is an interesting interpretation for sure

He makes interesting inferences that Jews were losing their Jewishness because they were all scattered around cut off from each other after expulsion by Romans dissolving in their respective communities they immigrated. Jews in China are said to have started eating pork but stopped doing so when contacted with Muslims. Even today Muslims in Bosnia Kosvo are quite different from rest because they are on the peripheries cut off from their co-religionists, same case with American Jews majority of whom are secular and they are marrying into non-Jews quite a lot worrying the Jewish authorities over there that they might lose their Jewishness over the generations since Judaism has a heritable angle to it.

But Muzlims suddenly conquered all those parts and started categorizing Jews 'as Jews'.

45 minutes ago, Spike said:

 and definitely makes sense, especially juxtaposed with how Christianity survived in Muslamic Spain, but Islam didn’t survive in Christian Spain post-reconquista.

This is a good point. People talk about jizya tax ok but at least we know what was the historical Muzlamic mechanism of dealing with minorities under their political rule. What was the Christian, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and all other isms mechanism of dealing with minorities under their political rule historically ? do they even have a mechanism ? and were Jews and Zoroastrianism were ever in a position where they even had significant minority under their political rule historically ? like Muzlims at one point had 60% of world Christian population living under them. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

3 hours ago, Azeem said:

In my opinion it does have a role.

 

He makes interesting inferences that Jews were losing their Jewishness because they were all scattered around cut off from each other after expulsion by Romans dissolving in their respective communities they immigrated. Jews in China are said to have started eating pork but stopped doing so when contacted with Muslims. Even today Muslims in Bosnia Kosvo are quite different from rest because they are on the peripheries cut off from their co-religionists, same case with American Jews majority of whom are secular and they are marrying into non-Jews quite a lot worrying the Jewish authorities over there that they might lose their Jewishness over the generations since Judaism has a heritable angle to it.

But Muzlims suddenly conquered all those parts and started categorizing Jews 'as Jews'.

This is a good point. People talk about jizya tax ok but at least we know what was the historical Muzlamic mechanism of dealing with minorities under their political rule. What was the Christian, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and all other isms mechanism of dealing with minorities under their political rule historically ? do they even have a mechanism ? and were Jews and Zoroastrianism were ever in a position where they even had significant minority under their political rule historically ? like Muzlims at one point had 60% of world Christian population living under them. 

Depends on the time and region we're talking about, since such thing as an defined mechanism did never exist. In most cases it was to use a German play on words the "Du wirst dran glauben müßen, oder Du wirst dran glauben müßen."- attitude. Roughly, without that pun that isn't possible to translate, translates to: "You'll gonna convert or you gonna die."

Edited 4 hours ago by Rucksackfranzose