Referees/VAR in the Premier League

[Gunnersaurus]

4 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

@Stan sadly this attitude towards referees is a culture at the club that's seeped in over time through Jurgen Klopp.

I was embarrassed for him at Selhurst watching him chewing his veneers like some crack addict desperate for his fix yelling obscenities at the officials at every occasion. After that I noticed it a lot more, all fan bases thought Andy Robertson shouting at that official before getting clocked was out of order, Liverpool fans thought it was fair game. Nearly all fan bases thought Moruinho was a disgrace for his antics after the Europa Conferance final, Liverpool fans thought it was fair game.

Now they've got this ghost goal to justify viewpoints and behaviours that are quite frankly unacceptable.

The thing is there are actually less people getting into refereeing because of the way they are treated. So the standard may well drop.

My attitude is how would you feel if it was your son or daughter. Even if you feel the people involved should be sacked. Personal insults are wrong. If you work for a large company and your manager insults you personally they will get in trouble. They will get sacked if they do it time and time again. They're isn't justification for it. With all social media and that I would imagine it does get back to the people involved. Probably not from this site but some of it from social media will 

[Rick]

Way to paint us all with the same brush @The Palace Fan nice one mate. 
 

This is why fuck all will ever change, because people are now wanting Liverpool fans to shut up and just swallow this shit situation, rather than hope that the pressure is kept on the powers above to actually fix the officiating in this country. 
 

Why has he been banned from officiating our games? Does that imply that he is only going to make mistakes when working on Liverpool games? I don’t get what the point is of that move. Either he is up to scratch to manage any game or he needs sacked. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

@Stan sadly this attitude towards referees is a culture at the club that's seeped in over time through Jurgen Klopp.

I was embarrassed for him at Selhurst watching him chewing his veneers like some crack addict desperate for his fix yelling obscenities at the officials at every occasion. After that I noticed it a lot more, all fan bases thought Andy Robertson shouting at that official before getting clocked was out of order, Liverpool fans thought it was fair game. Nearly all fan bases thought Moruinho was a disgrace for his antics after the Europa Conferance final, Liverpool fans thought it was fair game.

Now they've got this ghost goal to justify viewpoints and behaviours that are quite frankly unacceptable.

Ridiculous post. I’ve hated these officials since a fucking beach ball was allowed to score a goal on us.

And they’ve only gotten worse while having more tools available.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Way to paint us all with the same brush @The Palace Fan nice one mate. 
 

This is why fuck all will ever change, because people are now wanting Liverpool fans to shut up and just swallow this shit situation, rather than hope that the pressure is kept on the powers above to actually fix the officiating in this country. 
 

Why has he been banned from officiating our games? Does that imply that he is only going to make mistakes when working on Liverpool games? I don’t get what the point is of that move. Either he is up to scratch to manage any game or he needs sacked. 

Didn't Liverpool fans want Tierney banned from Liverpool games after what happened last season?

By the way, not once have I said for Liverpool fans to shut up. I just don't see the point in calling them all names under the sun in the process. It really is possible to make a point without constantly verbally abusing them. 

Stopping him officiating your games is probably to protect him as much as anything else. He's enemy number one in Liverpool no doubt, so what's the point in adding to that pressure? He'll be dropped down a division and assessed no doubt.

Every Liverpool fan wants him banned, I don't blame them. But if every referee was banned after they made an error, there won't be many left. They're not perfect, are they? 

[Dave]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Way to paint us all with the same brush @The Palace Fan nice one mate. 

Yeah my bad, it's clear on this forum that its a section of the fanbase as opposed to the entirety of it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

23 minutes ago, Stan said:

Didn't Liverpool fans want Tierney banned from Liverpool games after what happened last season?

By the way, not once have I said for Liverpool fans to shut up. I just don't see the point in calling them all names under the sun in the process. It really is possible to make a point without constantly verbally abusing them. 

Stopping him officiating your games is probably to protect him as much as anything else. He's enemy number one in Liverpool no doubt, so what's the point in adding to that pressure? He'll be dropped down a division and assessed no doubt.

Every Liverpool fan wants him banned, I don't blame them. But if every referee was banned after they made an error, there won't be many left. They're not perfect, are they? 

I didn’t call him every name under the sun, I said he should be sacked and you basically said shut up it’s been 5 days.

[Stan]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I didn’t call him every name under the sun, I said he should be sacked and you basically said shut up it’s been 5 days.

You said that the parents of the referee (it wasn't even his fault) should have had an abortion. I think that's the one that sticks in my mind.

And called them scum, dickheads, corrupt, bent etc. 

I haven't told you to shut up either, and you've picked a very minute point about what I was saying.

Funnily enough, looking back on the conversation it's clear we both want the same thing - refs to a) grow some balls, b) show some integrity, c) take some accountability and d) show some actual competence for the things they're trained to do on a consistent level. Also looking back on the UAE thing I agree that needs to be stopped too. If they're employed by the FA/PGMOL, they stick to officiating to games here (or in Europe for CL/EL/ECL). I understand what you mean about 'appearance of corruption' and the optics of it don't look great. Even taking out the potential financial aspect out of it, it probably doesn't help their focus and fatigue from flying to be ready for a game so soon after. 

I genuinely do feel for what happened to Liverpool at the weekend and I do hope that standards improve sharpish. It can't go on like it is. I don't think sacking him outright is the option here, at least not the only one. Take England/Cook out of the limelight temporarily. I just don't think giving them a load of shite online will solve anything. No matter how much you hate them or won't take them seriously. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, Stan said:

You said that the parents of the referee (it wasn't even his fault) should have had an abortion. I think that's the one that sticks in my mind.

And called them scum, dickheads, corrupt, bent etc. 

I haven't told you to shut up either, and you've picked a very minute point about what I was saying.

Funnily enough, looking back on the conversation it's clear we both want the same thing - refs to a) grow some balls, b) show some integrity, c) take some accountability and d) show some actual competence for the things they're trained to do on a consistent level. Also looking back on the UAE thing I agree that needs to be stopped too. If they're employed by the FA/PGMOL, they stick to officiating to games here (or in Europe for CL/EL/ECL). I understand what you mean about 'appearance of corruption' and the optics of it don't look great. Even taking out the potential financial aspect out of it, it probably doesn't help their focus and fatigue from flying to be ready for a game so soon after. 

I genuinely do feel for what happened to Liverpool at the weekend and I do hope that standards improve sharpish. It can't go on like it is. I don't think sacking him outright is the option here, at least not the only one. Take England/Cook out of the limelight temporarily. I just don't think giving them a load of shite online will solve anything. No matter how much you hate them or won't take them seriously. 

That was a joke about serious human error. Probably a fucked up one but I do have a pretty fucked sense of humour.

I just don’t see how standards improve if they aren’t held more accountable. Saying he can officiate for 19 teams but not 1 isn’t accountability - it’s either admission he’s biased or shielding him from the consequences of his ineptitude.

Sometimes after gross negligence people need to lose their jobs. I think that’s appropriate here. The seasons just begun and he’s already made 3 serious errors.

I don’t see the value in not sacking him. I just don’t think he’s going to learn from this. Especially if they’re just shielding him from Liverpool fans. He’s going to think he’s the one hard done by everything. And I don’t want them doing what they did with Lee Mason, sacking him off… but then bringing him back in to train referees.

This “jobs for the boys” shit at PMGOL is a part of the problem. And it’s a statistical anomaly too, it defies belief that out of all the population, there’s 0 qualified people to officiate in the top flight from London. Reeks of getting a job based off who they know rather than what they know.

[Stan]

Not seen all highlights but haven't heard about any controversies this weekend so far... 

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/67133660

well done boys, good process 

[Gunnersaurus]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/67133660

well done boys, good process 

I mean they have been suspended for two games. Obviously who ever is in charge  decided it wasn't a sackable offence.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

I mean they have been suspended for two games. Obviously who ever is in charge  decided it wasn't a sackable offence.

Yeah it's a bit of a joke though. Or the officials will put it, a good process.

[Gunnersaurus]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah it's a bit of a joke though. Or the officials will put it, a good process.

I'm not sure it warrants sacking mate. I mean didn't you say the var officials earn 100 grand a year? You don't pay someone that much money if you can get anyone to do the job. I know you don't like officials mate. But you have to be able to get better people to replace them with if you sack them. I think that is a possibility. Apparently in England refrees can only go up one league at a time. So if they stand out they can't go from league 1 straight to the Premier league which is an issue.

Despite what some people may think I'm not trying to be contrarian. I just think how I would feel if I was in their situation 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

You don't pay someone that much money if you can get anyone to do the job.

No but typically you don't pay someone that much when they demonstrate they can't really do the job either.

[Gunnersaurus]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

No but typically you don't pay someone that much when they demonstrate they can't really do the job either.

That was a one of mistake though they don't do that every game. My point is though if they could get anyone to replace them they wouldn't pay them that much. You have to remember a lot of the decisions are open to interpretation. The clearly wrong decisions are much less common. We're probably never going to agree on this though. I want the standards to improve but I don't think the abuse referees get it is right. And I think the media make it worse because they always make everything out to be a disaster because it sells more papers and attracts more viewers 

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

That was a one of mistake though they don't do that every game. My point is though if they could get anyone to replace them they wouldn't pay them that much. You have to remember a lot of the decisions are open to interpretation. The clearly wrong decisions are much less common. We're probably never going to agree on this though. I want the standards to improve but I don't think the abuse referees get it is right. And I think the media make it worse because they always make everything out to be a disaster because it sells more papers and attracts more viewers 

I just don't buy the argument that these are the best people to be officiating matches in a billion pound industry. It's statistically improbable that there's no good referee in London, the UK's most populated city, that could make their way up to refereeing in the premier league. Look at how many of the officials there are that are from right around the same area. To me... that looks like an "old boys club" - it's hard to get membership if you're not mates with the people already in the club. And the least qualified person in the audio of what was going on during the VAR seemed to be the only person that was actually paying attention to anything going on... so it's even harder to convince me that PMGOL's selected the best possible candidates to officiate matches.

He somehow ended up looking like the most qualified official involved in the match. And he wasn't even an official. Referee mistakes were just more forgivable before VAR and hawkeye and all of that shite. Now they've got so much help and they're still making mistakes that shouldn't have been made, I've got no sympathy for them. If the media thinks the referee spectacle encourages viewers, I think they're pretty wrong. I've watched 1 football match since the incident, I didn't really enjoy it, probably my mistake for watching the league match instead of the Europa League  - I've enjoyed the international break because it's been some time off from me caring about football.

My interest in the league would probably have been rekindled a bit if PMGOL decided to clean up it's act a bit. Perhaps Howard Webb could do with a swift Constantine Hatzidakis elbow to the head.

[Gunnersaurus]

36 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I just don't buy the argument that these are the best people to be officiating matches in a billion pound industry. It's statistically improbable that there's no good referee in London, the UK's most populated city, that could make their way up to refereeing in the premier league. Look at how many of the officials there are that are from right around the same area. To me... that looks like an "old boys club" - it's hard to get membership if you're not mates with the people already in the club. And the least qualified person in the audio of what was going on during the VAR seemed to be the only person that was actually paying attention to anything going on... so it's even harder to convince me that PMGOL's selected the best possible candidates to officiate matches.

He somehow ended up looking like the most qualified official involved in the match. And he wasn't even an official. Referee mistakes were just more forgivable before VAR and hawkeye and all of that shite. Now they've got so much help and they're still making mistakes that shouldn't have been made, I've got no sympathy for them. If the media thinks the referee spectacle encourages viewers, I think they're pretty wrong. I've watched 1 football match since the incident, I didn't really enjoy it, probably my mistake for watching the league match instead of the Europa League  - I've enjoyed the international break because it's been some time off from me caring about football.

My interest in the league would probably have been rekindled a bit if PMGOL decided to clean up it's act a bit. Perhaps Howard Webb could do with a swift Constantine Hatzidakis elbow to the head.

People moaned just as much before VAR. I don't doubt there are better referees. Like I said the system doesn't allow for the best to go straight to the top. We're never going to agree so no point in continuing. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

People moaned just as much before VAR. I don't doubt there are better referees. Like I said the system doesn't allow for the best to go straight to the top. We're never going to agree so no point in continuing. 

I think people moaned because there was video review elsewhere in sport and it was used well, so people thought "why accept human error when we have things to prevent against human error?" Now we see them use VAR to get to the wrong decision in about 12 seconds, even though they somehow go through the process correctly and still come to the wrong decision, or spent something like 5 minutes reviewing things that are clear as day.

I agree with you that the system doesn't allow the best to go straight to the top. But that's because the system is an old boys club and they're rewarding their mates. Systems can be improved upon, but it's only going to happen if enough people demand it and there's public will for it.

It's clear the public doesn't have the will for it, though, so there's no point in hoping for better officiating tbh.

[Gunnersaurus]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think people moaned because there was video review elsewhere in sport and it was used well, so people thought "why accept human error when we have things to prevent against human error?" Now we see them use VAR to get to the wrong decision in about 12 seconds, even though they somehow go through the process correctly and still come to the wrong decision, or spent something like 5 minutes reviewing things that are clear as day.

I agree with you that the system doesn't allow the best to go straight to the top. But that's because the system is an old boys club and they're rewarding their mates. Systems can be improved upon, but it's only going to happen if enough people demand it and there's public will for it.

It's clear the public doesn't have the will for it, though, so there's no point in hoping for better officiating tbh.

You still to get errors in other sports. And also in other sports they are allowed to advice the referee more. In football they have to be absolutely certain. I think they should be able to say what they think is more likely.  I don't mean to be be rude but you seem to have a bit of a I could do better attitude. I'd be fairly certain that you couldn't.  The system doesn't allow for the best to go to the top as fast as they could but it does allow for the best to go to the top.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Gunnersaurus

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

I don't mean to be be rude but you seem to have a bit of a I could do better attitude. I'd be fairly certain that you couldn't. 

I know you didn't mean to be rude, but are you really going to say that after video and audio evidence confirmed that the most competent person involved with that VAR decision was the "least qualified" person to make any decision about officiating a football match? I think considering that evidence, the system doesn't allow the best to go to the top.

Maybe the problem is they're not paid enough and don't face consequences for serious errors enough. I get paid more than they do, but I also know that just 1 serious mistake could cost me my job - so I take the idea of what the minimal competence required to be considered good at my job very seriously. They get a decent wage and I think we should be asking more of them considering there's people with more important jobs that are paid far less than them because they're not part of a billion pound industry... but maybe the issue is they don't take it seriously enough because they know what they make in football is fucking peanuts compared to the money in the sport. And it's very, very, very hard for any of them to lose their jobs.

And obviously what I do is very different to what officials do on the pitch. But if you're telling me that the talent pool in the UK is so low for officials that these are the best we've got, I absolutely disagree with you and will once again refer you to the replay operator who is not an official yet demonstrated infinitely more competence than the VAR officials. That was a guy who's not even close to a referee, he's a software engineer - yet there he was, demonstrating he was better at their jobs than they were. And he's probably making less money than them too, despite having a career in something actually useful.

[Gunnersaurus]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I know you didn't mean to be rude, but are you really going to say that after video and audio evidence confirmed that the most competent person involved with that VAR decision was the "least qualified" person to make any decision about officiating a football match? I think considering that evidence, the system doesn't allow the best to go to the top.

Maybe the problem is they're not paid enough and don't face consequences for serious errors enough. I get paid more than they do, but I also know that just 1 serious mistake could cost me my job - so I take the idea of what the minimal competence required to be considered good at my job very seriously. They get a decent wage and I think we should be asking more of them considering there's people with more important jobs that are paid far less than them because they're not part of a billion pound industry... but maybe the issue is they don't take it seriously enough because they know what they make in football is fucking peanuts compared to the money in the sport. And it's very, very, very hard for any of them to lose their jobs.

And obviously what I do is very different to what officials do on the pitch. But if you're telling me that the talent pool in the UK is so low for officials that these are the best we've got, I absolutely disagree with you and will once again refer you to the replay operator who is not an official yet demonstrated infinitely more competence than the VAR officials. That was a guy who's not even close to a referee, he's a software engineer - yet there he was, demonstrating he was better at their jobs than they were. And he's probably making less money than them too, despite having a career in something actually useful.

I've said on quite a few occasions that they may not be the best. Like is said. referee's can only get promoted 1 season at a time. So you could have better referees in lower divisions. And you seem to think they don't take their job seriously again I would disagree. There are consequences. Referees get reviewed every week.  They get bonuses, they get paid more for high profile games, if they do badly they get less of these. 

I've also said repeatedly it was a very bad error. But people do make very bad errors. Doesn't mean they are bad at their job because of one very bad error.  Maybe they should of been sacked. However they decided not to sack them.  And also I'm not just talking about that game I'm talking about in general. 

People don't get paid 100 grand a year if anyone can do their job. I just pointing out it's clearly not as easy as people think or they wouldn't pay someone so much to do it. 

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone could be a var official? That's all I'm asking. I don't know if they are good or bad compared to other countries. But I'm fairly certain it's not an easy job because as I said. You don't pay someone that much for an easy job.

Also I would point out that if you are paid over 100 grand a year then you are a more competent person than average.  Perhaps you are over estimating the average competency level 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Gunnersaurus

[Dr. Gonzo]

11 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

I've said on quite a few occasions that they may not be the best. Like is said. referee's can only get promoted 1 season at a time. So you could have better referees in lower divisions. And you seem to think they don't take their job seriously again I would disagree. There are consequences. Referees get reviewed every week.  They get bonuses, they get paid more for high profile games, if they do badly they get less of these. 

I've also said repeatedly it was a very bad error. But people do make very bad errors. Doesn't mean they are bad at their job because of one very bad error.  Maybe they should of been sacked. However they decided not to sack them.  And also I'm not just talking about that game I'm talking about in general. 

People don't get paid 100 grand a year if anyone can do their job. I just pointing out it's clearly not as easy as people think or they wouldn't pay someone so much to do it. 

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone could be a var official? That's all I'm asking. I don't know if they are good or bad compared to other countries. But I'm fairly certain it's not an easy job because as I said. You don't pay someone that much for an easy job.

Also I would point out that if you are paid over 100 grand a year then you are a more competent person than average.  Perhaps you are over estimating the average competency level 

I’m pretty confident pretty much anyone still on our forum or discord could be one of the best VAR officials in the UK, if not the best.

[Gunnersaurus]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’m pretty confident pretty much anyone still on our forum or discord could be one of the best VAR officials in the UK, if not the best.

OK well I seriously doubt that 

[Rick]

I could do the job of the VAR, and my success rate would be way higher. That I am confident of. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://x.com/HACKETTREF/status/1721791143950594106?s=20
 

Lol this league