Arsenal Discussion

[CaaC (John)+]

51 minutes ago, ...Dan said:

Lauren, Dixon, Pires, Wenger, RVP, Parlour, Seaman.

Jesus, he's put on the beef!!  

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

We were on the route downwards with Wenger which is why he was sacked. Plus it's not about competing with City and the likes, it was about competing against ourselves and our feeling comfortable reaching our seeming target of a top four space with domestic cup runs being used as the carrot hanging in front of the fans faces for "satisfaction"

You have a simplistic view which has been fed to you by meaningless emotionally driven twaddle. 

Noncence. Fans always want more than what is realistic. Arsenal are a club where winning the league would be a massive over achievement. You seem to think we should be competing for the title every season. Where as that just isn't realistic any more. 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Panna King said:

Arsenal not spending money when Wenger was in charge is a huge Myth,   He had a lot of money to spend, maybe not the amounts of Chelsea at the time but still it was enough but where it was spent, it was wasted.  Also Arsenal at the time were 2nd in player wages as our squad was huge with average players all earning vasts amounts on long contracts.  Wenger will be remembered for several things but he stayed far too long without moving in to the modern day of football as he had far too much control, which now Arsenal are playing catch up.

He didn't have much money to spend up untill 2014 due to sponsorship deals. He needed to go in the end. That is very clear. But sometimes what he did is not appriciated in my opinion.  I'm not saying we couldn't do better what I'm saying is it would take a top top coach to get us to win the title. I think it is easier to win it with chelsea, city, and utd. 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Arsenal are in a bracket where they could have done better this decade for sure, had they been more adventurous in the transfer market or Wenger left earlier. ANd I'm sure a lot of you guys are thinking what if. What if Fabregas wasn't a dumb cunt, what if Van Persie stayed, what if Wenger moved on in 2014. What if Ozil gave 100% every time. But at the beginning of the decade Arsenal were in a similar position to now. Scrapping for top 4. You haven't changed. City and Liverpool have risen, United and Chelsea have dropped off. 

Things could be better for the Arsenal, but they could be far worse.

Thats what I'm saying mate. It's about balance. Things could be better they could be worse. I mean look at Liverpool. It has taken a top top coach to get them where they are. There are a lot of issues at arsenal. Wenger was holding the club back at the end that is clear. But kronke doesn't care. That is a massive issue. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[SirBalon]

19 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Where as that just isn't realistic any more. 

Since when and why!

Why are statistically the third most successful club in England and that DEMANDS we compete (not win, that's different).

[SirBalon]

12 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Thats what I'm saying mate. It's about balance. Things could be better they could be worse. I mean look at Liverpool. It has taken a top top coach to get them where they are. There are a lot of issues at arsenal. Wenger was holding the club back at the end that is clear. But kronke doesn't care. That is a massive issue. 

No! That's NOT what you've been saying at all. At the start of this debate you tried to put the blame solely and squarely on Unai Emery ffs. You have just agreed with @Devil-Dick Willie Who has literally just posted what I did but in different words. Anyone that's balanced can see these things as he has.

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Since when and why!

Why are statistically the third most successful club in England and that DEMANDS we compete (not win, that's different)

Man city and Chelsea changed the dynamic of the league. Valencia are a successful Spanish team but they aren't expected to compete for the title. If kronke went we would compete more though I'm pretty certain of that

 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

No! That's NOT what you've been saying at all. At the start of this debate you tried to put the blame solely and squarely on Unai Emery ffs. You have just agreed with @Devil-Dick Willie Who has literally just posted what I did but in different words. Anyone that's balanced can see these things as he has.

No I didn't!! I said it would take a top top coach to compete at the top. That's not saying he isn't a good coach. It's just being realistic that to compete at the top would be hard for any coach. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. Saying it would take one of the top 5 coaches in the world to win the league with arsenal and get us regularly competing isn't blaiming the coach. If you wanna talk about someone blaiming Emery talk about vanpanna. He wanted to sack Emery after we lost to Liverpool last year. It's the same with my opinions on Wenger. There are so many issues at arsenal blaiming it all on Wenger is harsh. Not saying you did but a lot of people did

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[Panna King]

34 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

He didn't have much money to spend up untill 2014 due to sponsorship deals. He needed to go in the end. That is very clear. But sometimes what he did is not appriciated in my opinion.  I'm not saying we couldn't do better what I'm saying is it would take a top top coach to get us to win the title. I think it is easier to win it with chelsea, city, and utd. 

Well thats a load of rubbish as Arsenal spent £42.5 million on Ozil in 2013! 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Panna King

[Guest]

Just now, Panna King said:

Well thats a load of rubbish as Arsenal spent £42.5 million on Ozil in 2013!  breaking the British transfer record.

That was a one of. His net spend was low overall. Up until 2014 at least

[Panna King]

8 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

That was a one of. His net spend was low overall. Up until 2014 at least

A one off??   I think you are just coming up with excuses now,  first you said he had no money and now Arsenal managed to blow over 40 million just like that.  Regarding the inflation in transfer fees, Arsenal have always been one of the big transfer spenders at the time, Cazorla,  Overmars, Henry, Reyes, Arshavin and I am sure there are many more that were all bought for huge sums of money at the time.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Panna King

[Panna King]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Wenger's era has to be looked at a tale of two halves... The first and the second are distinctly different.

Yeah, thats why he stayed too long, if he would of quit after the unbeaten run he would of been worshiped as a pure legend but the thing is, the team he had but failed in Europe is one of his biggest downfalls, he never had the tactics to win a 2 legged cup.   

[LFCMadLad]

I'd still take Wenger over Emery even now. Just my personal preference obviously.

[Panna King]

3 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I'd still take Wenger over Emery even now. Just my personal preference obviously.

The club is run differently know as it has a structure put in place, this was done because of Wenger leaving as he didn't want this type of structure while he was at the club.   Wenger had to leave plus he is old now and out of ideas of the modern game.  Emery it just far too cautious as a coach now which is kind of killing our attacking play. 

[6666]

A lot of bullshit as usual when talking about the 2nd half of Wenger's reign. For none of that second half were we even expected to finish in the top 4 let alone win trophies. It also included a period where we had to sell our best players and spend very little to replace them. People talk about Pochettino doing a good job last season by not signing anyone but that was a much easier task as they didn't lose key players. Wenger deserves a lot of credit for keeping us in the Champions League in that period. Only time we started spending money again was with Ozil and even then it wasn't close to the teams competing for the title.

Only real failure of a season when looking at the circumstances was his final season and even then that was a season we basically wrote off after his departure was announced.

[6666]

3 hours ago, Panna King said:

A one off??   I think you are just coming up with excuses now,  first you said he had no money and now Arsenal managed to blow over 40 million just like that.  Regarding the inflation in transfer fees, Arsenal have always been one of the big transfer spenders at the time, Cazorla,  Overmars, Henry, Reyes, Arshavin and I am sure there are many more that were all bought for huge sums of money at the time.

Cazorla was bought for a bargain for around £10m because Malaga were having a meltdown. Overmars, Henry & Reyes were bought in the period that we were performing well and they weren't sums to shock anyone even at the time. Arshavin was a £15m transfer in 2009 which was a big investment for us but not considered a big investment amount by the likes of Chelsea or Man Utd at the time. Chelsea spent that amount on Bosingwa that season. Wasn't strange to see Man Utd spend £30m on players by then.

[The Artful Dodger]

16 minutes ago, 6666 said:

A lot of bullshit as usual when talking about the 2nd half of Wenger's reign. For none of that second half were we even expected to finish in the top 4 let alone win trophies. It also included a period where we had to sell our best players and spend very little to replace them. People talk about Pochettino doing a good job last season by not signing anyone but that was a much easier task as they didn't lose key players. Wenger deserves a lot of credit for keeping us in the Champions League in that period. Only time we started spending money again was with Ozil and even then it wasn't close to the teams competing for the title. 

Only real failure of a season when looking at the circumstances was his final season and even then that was a season we basically wrote off after his departure was announced.

Your wage bill was always top 4, you've always paid huge wages. Wages are probably a bigger indicator than transfer fees. Wenger was in no sense over achieving.

[6666]

4 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Your wage bill was always top 4, you've always paid huge wages. Wages are probably a bigger indicator than transfer fees. Wenger was in no sense over achieving.

Transfer fees convince clubs to sell players. Without big transfer fees, you don't get the best players as the teams that spend more are circling.

The revisionism is great though. Having to go every preseason hearing every pundit say "Arsenal will drop out of the top 4" which turned into "Arsenal should be competing for the title" when that didn't happen.  It seems to have worked though unfortunately in convincing people we were in a position where we should've been expected to win trophies. We really weren't.

[The Artful Dodger]

6 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Transfer fees convince clubs to sell players. Without big transfer fees, you don't get the best players as the teams that spend more are circling.

The revisionism is great though. Having to go every preseason hearing every pundit say "Arsenal will drop out of the top 4" which turned into "Arsenal should be competing for the title" when that didn't happen.  It seems to have worked though unfortunately in convincing people we were in a position where we should've been expected to win trophies. We really weren't. 

While Wenger failed to make you competitive for titles you were always paying significantly more than the others trying to break the top 4. Wenger keeping you top 4 was not some massive achievement and when you fell out of it was only a matter of time before he went. You're a far wealthier, higher spending, higher wage paying club than Spurs for example, falling below them is unacceptable given what you pay out. At best Wenger was par for the course while he retained your top 4 position and then below it afterwards.

Edited October 8, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[6666]

13 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

While Wenger failed to make you competitive for titles you were always paying significantly more than the others trying to break the top 4. Wenger keeping you top 4 was not some massive achievement and when you fell out of it was only a matter of time before he went. You're a far wealthier, higher spending, higher wage paying club than Spurs for example, falling below them is unacceptable given what you pay out. At best Wenger was par for the course while he retained your top 4 position and then below it afterwards.

You're judging based on wages whereas I'm looking more at expectations at the time. Based on expectations before seasons started, we did better. Man Utd pay more in wages than Tottenham but I wouldn't expect them to finish in the top 4 but if they somehow did then whoever the manager is at the time would deserve a lot of credit. Difference in the case of Arsenal at the time is that the wages weren't as crazy as Man Utd's are now and the transfer fees involved were nowhere close.

[Panna King]

56 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Cazorla was bought for a bargain for around £10m because Malaga were having a meltdown. Overmars, Henry & Reyes were bought in the period that we were performing well and they weren't sums to shock anyone even at the time. Arshavin was a £15m transfer in 2009 which was a big investment for us but not considered a big investment amount by the likes of Chelsea or Man Utd at the time. Chelsea spent that amount on Bosingwa that season. Wasn't strange to see Man Utd spend £30m on players by then.

Reyes was a huge signing at the time 18 million plus I think in all add ons. Arsenal maybe always didn't buy 1 player over 20 million but they always spent more than 90% of the other teams in the league.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Panna King said:

A one off??   I think you are just coming up with excuses now,  first you said he had no money and now Arsenal managed to blow over 40 million just like that.  Regarding the inflation in transfer fees, Arsenal have always been one of the big transfer spenders at the time, Cazorla,  Overmars, Henry, Reyes, Arshavin and I am sure there are many more that were all bought for huge sums of money at the time.

I'm talking between the 2006 to 2014 period. Ozil and ashavin were the only expensive signings. And ashavin wasn't spectacular money. We didn't spend anywhere near out top 4 rivals during that time. In fact we were making profit on transfers. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

A lot of bullshit as usual when talking about the 2nd half of Wenger's reign. For none of that second half were we even expected to finish in the top 4 let alone win trophies. It also included a period where we had to sell our best players and spend very little to replace them. People talk about Pochettino doing a good job last season by not signing anyone but that was a much easier task as they didn't lose key players. Wenger deserves a lot of credit for keeping us in the Champions League in that period. Only time we started spending money again was with Ozil and even then it wasn't close to the teams competing for the title.

Only real failure of a season when looking at the circumstances was his final season and even then that was a season we basically wrote off after his departure was announced.

At the end he had to go. But it was essential that we were in the champions league up until 2014. We needed the money. It's just not true to say we could have spent big like man utd, Chelsea and man city did up untill then. People seem to forget that Chelsea then man city came on the scene. Wenger was by no means the perfect manager but it would have been very hard to replace him during that period. Up untill about 2014 or 2015 or so Wenger never finished below squads that had cost more to put together. Also people keep making out like we would be expected to be competing for the league anyway. If we hadn't won the league under Wenger it would be over 30 years since we had last won it. Our club expectations are higher because of him. It just seems to be a thing with football fans always seem to think they should be doing better than they are. If you spend some time looking it up if arsenal spent like city, Chelsea and utd do they would be spending more of their profit on transfers than any club. City and Chelsea spend money that is given to them and desgiused as profit. United spend a lot but they make considerbally more profit that us. Unfortunately if you look it up you will find there is a lot of misinformation about arsenal and their spending capabilities

Edited October 8, 2019 by Guest

[Panna King]

2 hours ago, 6666 said:

A lot of bullshit as usual when talking about the 2nd half of Wenger's reign. For none of that second half were we even expected to finish in the top 4 let alone win trophies. It also included a period where we had to sell our best players and spend very little to replace them. People talk about Pochettino doing a good job last season by not signing anyone but that was a much easier task as they didn't lose key players. Wenger deserves a lot of credit for keeping us in the Champions League in that period. Only time we started spending money again was with Ozil and even then it wasn't close to the teams competing for the title.

Only real failure of a season when looking at the circumstances was his final season and even then that was a season we basically wrote off after his departure was announced.

Ozil at the time was the 2nd most expensive player ever in the Premiership behind Fernando Torres who cost 50 million.

[Panna King]

Wenger cannot be seen as an elite coach, he never won anything in Europe, he was a good domestic manager.