George Floyd Death - Derek Chauvin Guilty of Murder

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

what would people say if i said i know someone ( not real ) that goes out every week and gets drunk and drives home and he has done this for over 20 years and last week he crashed his car and killed himself while driving drunk. or another guy i know ( not real ) that has been injecting heroin for 20 years and last week he died from a overdose. 

Those are people doing things and then dying as a direct result of the specific action they did (drink driving, shooting up smack). Which isn't what happened here.

It's not logical to suggest that because he had a criminal record of mostly minor drug offenses and one violent crime that he pled guilty to and did the time for, that his specific actions would/should have led him to being choked to death by a police officer on the pavement.

He didn't die committing a violent crime. He died allegedly committing a non-violent crime in using to try to use a fake $20 bill (which btw, it's never even been made clear to the public whether he actually had any counterfeit money on him at all).

If he was a bank robber using guns to rob banks and he'd gone into yet another bank armed and there was a response of armed police and he shot him... fair enough, your reasoning actually makes sense in that instance. However, I literally had to change all of the facts of what actually happened to make your comparisons really fit the point you're trying to make.

I also think it's pretty fucking harsh to suggest that some people necessarily have death coming to them because they've had a history with drugs and have been popped for minor drug offenses. Sort of implies that nobody can ever beat their addictions, which is definitely not true - people can beat their addictions, it's just difficult.

[UNIQUE]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Those are people doing things and then dying as a direct result of the specific action they did (drink driving, shooting up smack). Which isn't what happened here.

It's not logical to suggest that because he had a criminal record of mostly minor drug offenses and one violent crime that he pled guilty to and did the time for, that his specific actions would/should have led him to being choked to death by a police officer on the pavement.

He didn't die committing a violent crime. He died allegedly committing a non-violent crime in using to try to use a fake $20 bill (which btw, it's never even been made clear to the public whether he actually had any counterfeit money on him at all).

If he was a bank robber using guns to rob banks and he'd gone into yet another bank armed and there was a response of armed police and he shot him... fair enough, your reasoning actually makes sense in that instance. However, I literally had to change all of the facts of what actually happened to make your comparisons really fit the point you're trying to make.

I also think it's pretty fucking harsh to suggest that some people necessarily have death coming to them because they've had a history with drugs and have been popped for minor drug offenses. Sort of implies that nobody can ever beat their addictions, which is definitely not true - people can beat their addictions, it's just difficult.

but my point was that his life choices are what put him in that spot in the first place. he did not deserve to die but you have to look at the part he played in getting into trouble with the police in the first place. also you have to say he was very unlucky in that the cop that came to arrest him was the cunt that killed him. if a different cop came things could well have turned out different. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

but my point was that his life choices are what put him in that spot in the first place. he did not deserve to die but you have to look at the part he played in getting into trouble with the police in the first place. also you have to say he was very unlucky in that the cop that came to arrest him was the cunt that killed him. if a different cop came things could well have turned out different. 

There's a weird connection between the two men, because Chauvin wasn't just a cop - he was a co-worker of Floyd as they'd both worked together as nightclub bouncers (he took on other jobs when he was off-duty). It makes me wonder what exactly was going through Chauvin's brain when he decided to keep Floyd's neck pinned down like that, even while Floyd plead for his life.

I do think the "life choices" argument is a bit strange when you consider how someone like Kyle Rittenhouse was treated by US police.

[UNIQUE]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There's a weird connection between the two men, because Chauvin wasn't just a cop - he was a co-worker of Floyd as they'd both worked together as nightclub bouncers (he took on other jobs when he was off-duty). It makes me wonder what exactly was going through Chauvin's brain when he decided to keep Floyd's neck pinned down like that, even while Floyd plead for his life.

I do think the "life choices" argument is a bit strange when you consider how someone like Kyle Rittenhouse was treated by US police.

i didnt know the 2 men knew each other so as you say maybe it was personal. on Kyle Rittenhouse you will see stories like this from both sides from police and politicans. police or politicans supporting this guy is a crime. but its also a crime when the BLM antifa mob trespassed and threatened that old couple on there property and they came out with guns and asked them to leave. they were arrested and had the guns taken away from them by the police after getting pressure from politicans. the law in the USA says a person can defend themselves and property with a gun if they feel threatend so they broke the law by arresting them and taking the guns. im all for ending racism but trust me the BLM are a cancer not a cure. they dont care about black lives thats clear to see. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

46 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

i didnt know the 2 men knew each other so as you say maybe it was personal. on Kyle Rittenhouse you will see stories like this from both sides from police and politicans. police or politicans supporting this guy is a crime. but its also a crime when the BLM antifa mob trespassed and threatened that old couple on there property and they came out with guns and asked them to leave. they were arrested and had the guns taken away from them by the police after getting pressure from politicans. the law in the USA says a person can defend themselves and property with a gun if they feel threatend so they broke the law by arresting them and taking the guns. im all for ending racism but trust me the BLM are a cancer not a cure. they dont care about black lives thats clear to see. 

That couple that came out didn't have anyone trespass or threaten them directly, they felt threatened by a march that went passed their house and grabbed guns to come out and in their words "protect property." I assume their argument is they wanted to protect their property if necessary.

Obviously the protestors on the other side viewed it as an armed threat. It seems as though the eyes of the law also thought they were improperly using their weapons to threaten protestors - considering their actions led to police arresting them and seizing their guns.

The law in the US for how a person can properly defend themselves actually depends state by state, they don't have a set law for the entire country on what's "allowed" when you protect yourself and what isn't. In many places in the US, even threatening deadly force without believing you are in actual harm isn't considered justifiable defense of property. That was probably the case here, tbh.

I agree with you that a lot of the BLM protestors are not really helpful to their cause at all. But I also think putting everyone who believes "Black Lives Matter" under the general term of "BLM" as though it was a well organised group... is really overstating what they are as a group. There's no real centralised leadership, there's "leading figures" but the leaders of east coast BLM groups are going to have fuck all to do with BLM groups in the midwest & the west coast - they've barely got enough coordination between cities that are very close together.

I think a lot of the violence that's come in the aftermath of Floyd's killing honestly comes from escalation. When peaceful protestors get tear gassed, a large number of them aren't going to disburse - they're going to lash out at the police who tear gassed them. If you threaten people protesting racial inequality with firearms... don't be surprised if a court finds you've inappropriately responded and threatened people with a deadly weapon.

I think the issue of systemic racism and an overzealous police force in the US is probably a great reason for the US to start cracking down on gun ownership. Police in the US have to be armed to the teeth because there are a lot of criminals in the US armed to the teeth - and it was only in January there was that coup attempt in the US capitol building.

If cops aren't so worried about being shot, maybe they can start acting like police do in other developed nations in the world! But America does have serious racial issues it needs to address - and hasn't really properly addressed probably since the end of their Civil War.

[UNIQUE]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That couple that came out didn't have anyone trespass or threaten them directly, they felt threatened by a march that went passed their house and grabbed guns to come out and in their words "protect property." I assume their argument is they wanted to protect their property if necessary.

Obviously the protestors on the other side viewed it as an armed threat. It seems as though the eyes of the law also thought they were improperly using their weapons to threaten protestors - considering their actions led to police arresting them and seizing their guns.

The law in the US for how a person can properly defend themselves actually depends state by state, they don't have a set law for the entire country on what's "allowed" when you protect yourself and what isn't. In many places in the US, even threatening deadly force without believing you are in actual harm isn't considered justifiable defense of property. That was probably the case here, tbh.

I agree with you that a lot of the BLM protestors are not really helpful to their cause at all. But I also think putting everyone who believes "Black Lives Matter" under the general term of "BLM" as though it was a well organised group... is really overstating what they are as a group. There's no real centralised leadership, there's "leading figures" but the leaders of east coast BLM groups are going to have fuck all to do with BLM groups in the midwest & the west coast - they've barely got enough coordination between cities that are very close together.

I think a lot of the violence that's come in the aftermath of Floyd's killing honestly comes from escalation. When peaceful protestors get tear gassed, a large number of them aren't going to disburse - they're going to lash out at the police who tear gassed them. If you threaten people protesting racial inequality with firearms... don't be surprised if a court finds you've inappropriately responded and threatened people with a deadly weapon.

I think the issue of systemic racism and an overzealous police force in the US is probably a great reason for the US to start cracking down on gun ownership. Police in the US have to be armed to the teeth because there are a lot of criminals in the US armed to the teeth - and it was only in January there was that coup attempt in the US capitol building.

If cops aren't so worried about being shot, maybe they can start acting like police do in other developed nations in the world! But America does have serious racial issues it needs to address - and hasn't really properly addressed probably since the end of their Civil War.

very good post with some very good points mate. but i dont think the BLM group care about black lives. i think some of them are after getting rid of police ( not gonna happen). some are trying to strum up more race hate. some want to profit from it and some just want to watch the world burn. i do think some of them think what they are doing will help but they are wrong. the facts are infront of us. as you know for years now week after week year after year young black people mostly kids are getting murdered on the streets of london we see it all the time and no one took to the streets for them. im talking about young kids that with the right people putting a arm around them and giving them help could have made somthing of a good life. then george floyd gets murdered by a white policeman in the US and people over here riot and do all sorts of crazy stuff. now since that calmed down more and more young black men have been murdered on the streets of london and again no one hit the streets for them. why is that? i dont care that a violent criminal like floyd died in the USA but i do care that young people are getting killed on the streets of london. just a month or 2 ago a young kid 18yo who was a mate of my sons was murdered no more than 600 yards from my front door. he was a lovley kid that did no harm to anyone and spent lots of time in my house but was stabbed to death because he was a mate of someone a bunch of lads had a problem with and i bet you never even saw the story about it. no one took to the streets for him. just a few of us putting flowers on the spot he fell. the same in the usa. did you see the story of the 8yo girl that was shot in a car by gangbangers. a baby was murdered who never did nothing to anyone and no one did a fucking thing. then a black girl gets shot while trying to stab another black girl and its all over the news. 100s of black men are getting shot every week in the usa and you see and hear nothing about it. so please tell me how much these people really care about black lives. another example. 13yo boy with a gun gets chased by the police and ends up shot. very very sad and because he was hispanic and the police shot him its big news. but the 8yo girl gets no news. the news is no longer news mate its all propaganda. the news people get clicks and ratings. the politicians get to use it for points. the criminals and terrorists get to burn and loot. does anyone really think joe biden cares about black lives. the guy would struggle to tie his shoes. just my opinions mate. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, UNIQUE said:

very good post with some very good points mate. but i dont think the BLM group care about black lives. i think some of them are after getting rid of police ( not gonna happen). some are trying to strum up more race hate. some want to profit from it and some just want to watch the world burn. i do think some of them think what they are doing will help but they are wrong. the facts are infront of us. as you know for years now week after week year after year young black people mostly kids are getting murdered on the streets of london we see it all the time and no one took to the streets for them. im talking about young kids that with the right people putting a arm around them and giving them help could have made somthing of a good life. then george floyd gets murdered by a white policeman in the US and people over here riot and do all sorts of crazy stuff. now since that calmed down more and more young black men have been murdered on the streets of london and again no one hit the streets for them. why is that? i dont care that a violent criminal like floyd died in the USA but i do care that young people are getting killed on the streets of london. just a month or 2 ago a young kid 18yo who was a mate of my sons was murdered no more than 600 yards from my front door. he was a lovley kid that did no harm to anyone and spent lots of time in my house but was stabbed to death because he was a mate of someone a bunch of lads had a problem with and i bet you never even saw the story about it. no one took to the streets for him. just a few of us putting flowers on the spot he fell. the same in the usa. did you see the story of the 8yo girl that was shot in a car by gangbangers. a baby was murdered who never did nothing to anyone and no one did a fucking thing. then a black girl gets shot while trying to stab another black girl and its all over the news. 100s of black men are getting shot every week in the usa and you see and hear nothing about it. so please tell me how much these people really care about black lives. another example. 13yo boy with a gun gets chased by the police and ends up shot. very very sad and because he was hispanic and the police shot him its big news. but the 8yo girl gets no news. the news is no longer news mate its all propaganda. the news people get clicks and ratings. the politicians get to use it for points. the criminals and terrorists get to burn and loot. does anyone really think joe biden cares about black lives. the guy would struggle to tie his shoes. just my opinions mate. 

I also agree that I think the protests in the UK over George Floyd getting murdered by the police in the US was weird. I don't think police in the UK are perfect or anything, and tbh... I think systemic racism exists probably in any country (maybe not intentionally, maybe intentionally - I think some prejudices are just societally ingrained in people and it'll take a lot to get rid of those prejudices). But hearing stories of UK police killing people is pretty rare, let alone racially killing them.

But I do think, all around the world (or at least the western world) - I think a lot of what you're talking about exists. People not caring about pretty serious situations that happen ALL THE TIME -  but those stories that hit the news suddenly seem to sprout wings and just fly onto every fucking headline you can see.

Shit like violent drug dealing gangs in Merseyside, rampant gun crime in Nottingham, etc... it's similar to violent drug dealing gangs in LA and rampant gun crime in Chicago in the US. These are issues that are difficult and expensive for the government to fix, tbh. And a lot of people don't care to fix these problems. They see it as: "why should my taxes go towards helping drug addicts, violent yobs, and gang members?" So politicians don't spend their political capital trying to push for changes that would seek to provide long term solutions to people - because it's unpopular. And imo, a lot of these issues stem from socioeconomic issues. Poverty, and feeling like poverty is inescapable, does push a lot of people to crime. And people who routinely break the law start not caring about the law or caring about the impacts of breaking the law are. And then they start thinking they can act with impunity.

I do think some questions need to be asked as to why exactly so many minority communities around the US and (in more diverse cities like the London in the UK, and other countries) are in lower socioeconomic brackets. With America, if you look at their history of racial tensions... it's not so surprising; policies like Jim Crow were put in place to keep a racist status quo in place... and even after their Civil Rights movement in the 60s, it seems there are still so many impediments for people trying to push upwards for a better life.

First step in getting the problem solved though is by talking about these issues more. The next step is using our ability to vote and voting for people that will make these issues a higher priority. Next step is holding politicians when they say they'll do one thing, but then their policies do absolutely nothing to address what they said.

I don't think mainstream politicians care about anything other than getting reelected. So it's down to the public to not be a bunch of dumb cunts really, because politicians will pretty much do whatever is politically popular for them to do - except for the really corrupt ones who are okay with using politics to make themselves richer without giving a fuck if they piss off most people, but those people are never going to push for any meaningful societal change in their lives in the first place.

[UNIQUE]

@Dr. Gonzo whats your thinking about lebron james tweet he put out. he has a stake in LFC now. thats the last thing the club needs after the ESL bullshit. it goes from bad to worst. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

@Dr. Gonzo whats your thinking about lebron james tweet he put out. he has a stake in LFC now. thats the last thing the club needs after the ESL bullshit. it goes from bad to worst. 

Which one? The video about "hope for black men" and how the fight for racial equality in the US doesn't end with the George Floyd verdict?

Tbh, I think LFC is in a sorry state for as long as those twats are in charge - Lebron James or no Lebron James. But I don't really see what's so inflammatory about that video?

He's right isn't he? The guilty verdict doesn't mean the issue of racism in the US has been solved or that black men in America now get the same treatment white men get when they are arrested. We've already seen a few high profile incidents where cops have killed black and hispanic people in the US when they probably otherwise wouldn't have fired their guns if it was a white suspect they were dealing with (the psycho who claimed it was a taser before firing, I think is pretty bad all things considered - because her excuse was just fucking terrible if you know what a taser looks like).

I think asking a black man in America to stay silent about his views on what is probably the biggest issue for black men in America just because he's got ownership in a football team is wrong.

If it's not that video - then I don't know what tweet you're talking about. I don't particularly give a shit about Lebron James or basketball, so I don't follow him on twitter... nor do I care about news about his twitter.

[UNIQUE]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Which one? The video about "hope for black men" and how the fight for racial equality in the US doesn't end with the George Floyd verdict?

Tbh, I think LFC is in a sorry state for as long as those twats are in charge - Lebron James or no Lebron James. But I don't really see what's so inflammatory about that video?

He's right isn't he? The guilty verdict doesn't mean the issue of racism in the US has been solved or that black men in America now get the same treatment white men get when they are arrested. We've already seen a few high profile incidents where cops have killed black and hispanic people in the US when they probably otherwise wouldn't have fired their guns if it was a white suspect they were dealing with (the psycho who claimed it was a taser before firing, I think is pretty bad all things considered - because her excuse was just fucking terrible if you know what a taser looks like).

I think asking a black man in America to stay silent about his views on what is probably the biggest issue for black men in America just because he's got ownership in a football team is wrong.

If it's not that video - then I don't know what tweet you're talking about. I don't particularly give a shit about Lebron James or basketball, so I don't follow him on twitter... nor do I care about news about his twitter.

no the one where he put up a picture of the cop that shot the girl who was going to stab the other girl saying you are next. he has taken it down now but like always once its on the net it stays on the net. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

no the one where he put up a picture of the cop that shot the girl who was going to stab the other girl saying you are next. he has taken it down now but like always once its on the net it stays on the net. 

Oh. That's just fucking stupid 

Lebron James is a selfish arsehole though. Doing shit like that isn't going to do anything for the shitloads of black people that do live in fear of the police in the US - it's just going to escalate tensions. But as one of the richest athletes in the world, I don't think he has to live in fear the same way a lot of black people in America would... so him tweeting that might make him feel better about himself, but probably does fuck all to advance his cause in any meaningful way.

The world was better before twitter. The world didn't need every dumb arsehole to have a megaphone and let them show the whole world how stupid they are.

[Devil]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oh. That's just fucking stupid 

Lebron James is a selfish arsehole though. Doing shit like that isn't going to do anything for the shitloads of black people that do live in fear of the police in the US - it's just going to escalate tensions. But as one of the richest athletes in the world, I don't think he has to live in fear the same way a lot of black people in America would... so him tweeting that might make him feel better about himself, but probably does fuck all to advance his cause in any meaningful way.

The world was better before twitter. The world didn't need every dumb arsehole to have a megaphone and let them show the whole world how stupid they are.

100% some people were made to not be heard as public. 

Sad world we live in when the Stupid idiots have a voice. 

[UNIQUE]

i wonder if twitter will ban him for inciting violence though. it would only be fair but we all know it wont happen. 

[Harry]

11 hours ago, UNIQUE said:

what would people say if i said i know someone ( not real ) that goes out every week and gets drunk and drives home and he has done this for over 20 years and last week he crashed his car and killed himself while driving drunk. or another guy i know ( not real ) that has been injecting heroin for 20 years and last week he died from a overdose. 

What point are you making though mate? Nobody is saying George Floyd is a prince. For trying to purchase something with a counterfeit $20 note he didn't deserve to have a sadist kneel on his neck until he died.

 

 

[Harry]

One thing which does warrant a mention though, on the subject of economic inequality as opposed to police mistreatment.

The whole white people have it much easier than blacks, is true, but there are still a lot of white folk that feel like they don't have it much better. Particularly the rural populations, which are communities that are largely dying out whilst cities are growing. Opioids are ripping through those places and youths born into those areas are also entrenched in poverty and limited from prosperity. And that is a problem that preachy inner city lefties don't see much and don't think about. 

Those people need help too.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

One thing which does warrant a mention though, on the subject of economic inequality as opposed to police mistreatment.

The whole white people have it much easier than blacks, is true, but there are still a lot of white folk that feel like they don't have it much better. Particularly the rural populations, which are communities that are largely dying out whilst cities are growing. Opioids are ripping through those places and youths born into those areas are also entrenched in poverty and limited from prosperity. And that is a problem that preachy inner city lefties don't see much and don't think about. 

Those people need help too.

They keep voting against their own interests though then blaming people who live in cities for all of their problems.

They need help, definitely, but it’s hard to help people that always tell you to fuck off when help is offered to them.

[RandoEFC+]

On 22/04/2021 at 02:11, Dr. Gonzo said:

(remember: America has a very bad issue with racism, probably worse than America)

I can't believe I missed so much by not reading this thread over the last few days. This is definitely by far the most insightful and important point that has been made.

[UNIQUE]

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Ben Shapiro can’t even make his wife wet, I’m not going to watch a video watching that whiny cunt 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

I can't believe I missed so much by not reading this thread over the last few days. This is definitely by far the most insightful and important point that has been made.

I meant England for the second America 

[UNIQUE]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ben Shapiro can’t even make his wife wet, I’m not going to watch a video watching that whiny cunt 

just watch the BBC instead 

[Harry]

6 hours ago, UNIQUE said:

just watch the BBC instead 

Shapiro is a smart guy but he primarily uses the powers of his intellect to mischarecterise what democrats are and stand for, to keep the sheep on his side of the fence.

Usually in the videos I'm seeing he's either a) spotlighting a minority view within the democratic coalition and presenting it as the majority view. Or b) exploiting the lack of nuance in overarching messaging from the democratic side and pointing out the inevitable exceptions.

The other major criticism I have is whilst I often agree with him that the people/views he's criticising are valid I would still respond with "yes there are shit parts to the democratic party and segments of its coalition but the conservative side is a far worse option."

In this vid, his criticism of LeBron not caring about the Uighur Muslims treatment at the hands of the Chinese government is pretty dumb. LeBron is entitled to care more about issues he identifies with. It's not hypocrisy for him to take a stance on a BLM issue without having acted on other worse issues in other countries he barely knows anything about.

Is LBJ a genius? No. He's a basketballer who's keen to help on causes that matter to him or people he cares about, even if some times he's a bit of a prop and not across the details. But he's also not dumb enough to suggest to scientists that they investigate injecting bleach into people since it's proven so effective in killing COVID on surfaces. And Shapiro defended or excused that guy more than a few times.

[DeadLinesman]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Shapiro is a smart guy

He called Andrew Neil a lefty. He really isn’t.

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

He called Andrew Neil a lefty. He really isn’t.

I don't know Neil.

Do you think it's because he was ignorant? The bad-faith characteristisations that person X is 'left' are common now, and often applied to anyone not fully all in with the Trump coalition. Its a common tactic of disguising how much the party has moved to the right and has been since the tea party years.

[DeadLinesman]

Just now, Harry said:

I don't know Neil.

Do you think it's because he was ignorant? The bad-faith characteristisations that person X is 'left' are common now, and often applied to anyone not fully all in with the Trump coalition. Its a common tactic of disguising how much the party has moved to the right and has been since the tea party years.

He just didn’t do any of his research for an interview. That isn’t smart. When you call Andrew Neil a lefty, it’s like calling me a Citeh fan in political terms. He’s about as right as you can get.