American Politics Discussion

[Spike]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Pence like Haley are neocons that out themselves like Tories that pretend to be conservative but really work for whomever puts money in the bank account.  

This post is like saying scarlet isn’t a shade of red.

[OrangeKhrush]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If you don't think the tories are actually conservative, that's hilarious but also scary.

The Tories are the other cheek of the same arse as Labour,  their policies chased voters and MPS away.   Labour had 6.8m voters and Reform had 4.2m,  that was 4.2m lost votes that probably lost them power and it was driven by diversity policies,  uncontrolled immigration policies and the fact that Sunak was WEF stooge like Starmer didn't help. 

[Tommy]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Tories are the other cheek of the same arse as Labour,  their policies chased voters and MPS away.   Labour had 6.8m voters and Reform had 4.2m,  that was 4.2m lost votes that probably lost them power and it was driven by diversity policies,  uncontrolled immigration policies and the fact that Sunak was WEF stooge like Starmer didn't help. 

Please stop. I'm feeling second hand embarassment from your posts. 

[Spike]

“LABOUR and TORIES same because DIVERSITY. Fucken ethnics ruining elections”. - the Plato of our time having escaped the cave.

[OrangeKhrush]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

This post is like saying scarlet isn’t a shade of red.

It is endemic of the problem that Governments don't run the country,  but rather the unelected bureaucrats,  until that problem is addressed it won't change. 

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, Tommy said:

Please stop. I'm feeling second hand embarassment from your posts. 

you have used that line so many times now

[Tommy]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

you have used that line so many times now

This is literally the first time I have said this lol. 

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, Tommy said:

This is literally the first time I have said this lol. 

you have used it before

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Tories are the other cheek of the same arse as Labour,  their policies chased voters and MPS away.   Labour had 6.8m voters and Reform had 4.2m,  that was 4.2m lost votes that probably lost them power and it was driven by diversity policies,  uncontrolled immigration policies and the fact that Sunak was WEF stooge like Starmer didn't help. 

Yes Tories are the other cheek of the same arse as Labour, that's why Tories took over from Labour and spent 14 years doing absolutely stupid and poorly thought out things that only led to economic collapse, a cost of living crisis, and some great disaster for disaster capitalists to capitalise on.

You probably thought Liz Truss was some glorious leader lol.

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

It is endemic of the problem that Governments don't run the country,  but rather the unelected bureaucrats,  until that problem is addressed it won't change. 

So unelected bureaucrats make it that neocons aren’t conservatives and they follow the money like they always have? 

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yes Tories are the other cheek of the same arse as Labour, that's why Tories took over from Labour and spent 14 years doing absolutely stupid and poorly thought out things that only led to economic collapse, a cost of living crisis, and some great disaster for disaster capitalists to capitalise on.

You probably thought Liz Truss was some glorious leader lol.

Didn't like any of the candidates they ran,  but it doesn't change the fact that around half their MP's and voters left.    The biggest issue was the loss of votes pushing outsourcing of services affecting local jobs and raising illegal immigration depleting the social welfare system.   they deserved to lose.    

We saw the same thing in South Africa,  the ANC split in half and that accounted for the fall from 60% to 42% of the vote,   the Democratic Alliance hardly improved over the previous sitting.    The benefit of a direct representative system is that it means the ANC holds 42% seats in parliament and can't pass a bill without support from the rest of parliament acting in support,  before they used to have 2/3 majority power to unilaterally pass legislation. 

[OrangeKhrush]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

So unelected bureaucrats make it that neocons aren’t conservatives and they follow the money like they always have? 

They are conservative in name only,  their politics don't reflect the majority of conservatives.  That is why Haley lost tragically even with the Democrats throwing everything behind her.    

The same divide is in the democrat party,  moderates are hated by the far left because they are not progressive enough.    

[Rucksackfranzose]

23 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

They are conservative in name only,  their politics don't reflect the majority of conservatives.  That is why Haley lost tragically even with the Democrats throwing everything behind her.    

The same divide is in the democrat party,  moderates are hated by the far left because they are not progressive enough.    

Well go on then: Who are these far left Democrats? Always keen to learn about right wing USA chanting capitalists that are indeed advocating the abolishment of private ownership, the nationalsation of all productive powers, and the overcoming of nation states.

Edited July 22 by Rucksackfranzose

[Spike]

23 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

They are conservative in name only,  their politics don't reflect the majority of conservatives.  That is why Haley lost tragically even with the Democrats throwing everything behind her.    

The same divide is in the democrat party,  moderates are hated by the far left because they are not progressive enough.    

Yes, they are conservative because they are conserving the status quo. Read a book.

[OrangeKhrush]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Yes, they are conservative because they are conserving the status quo. Read a book.

Conservation of civic nationalism and the things that give a state its character, history, customs and heritage.   If you are talking about the status quo to screw the man at the bottom over,  the Democrats have done that beautifully for years.   The biggest impact was the red tape on small and medium business to protect the big business who happen to be the biggest doners. 

Sure there have been Republicans that have done the same,  but the until you fix the system the status quo will not change. 

[OrangeKhrush]

6 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Well go on then: Who are these far left Democrats?

I guess the same thing can be asked as to who the far right are that seems to be pandered to anyone that disagrees with them.   I would say anyone that considers Bill Maher far right is a very good indicator of far left.   John F Kennedy would likely be far right in todays climate. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I guess the same thing can be asked as to who the far right are that seems to be pandered to anyone that disagrees with them.   I would say anyone that considers Bill Maher far right is a very good indicator of far left.   John F Kennedy would likely be far right in todays climate. 

You only quoted a part of my post, indeed the second sentence includeded the definition of "far left". And no, nobody advocating private ownership of essential key industies over nationalisation can be "far left"  regardless what measurement, political scientists are accepting, you use.As little as someone as emphatically nationalist as most US-Americans.

[Gunnersaurus]

People quite often use the words left wing, right wing etc out of context. However there is an actual spectrum and I'm pretty certain most countries use that same spectrum. The UK conservatives are on the central right of that spectrum, and as I said most use the same spectrum. 

Edited July 22 by Gunnersaurus

[Spike]

13 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Conservation of civic nationalism and the things that give a state its character, history, customs and heritage.   If you are talking about the status quo to screw the man at the bottom over,  the Democrats have done that beautifully for years.   The biggest impact was the red tape on small and medium business to protect the big business who happen to be the biggest doners. 

Sure there have been Republicans that have done the same,  but the until you fix the system the status quo will not change. 

You are very interested in the purity of conservatism of history and customs for a South African. 

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Gunnersaurus said:

People quite often use the words left wing, right wing etc out of context. However there is an actual spectrum and I'm pretty certain most countries use that same spectrum. The UK conservatives are on the central right. 

It’s economic policy, right is deregulation of the economy in favour of the individual and left is regulation of the economy for the collective, to put it bluntly. Conservatism is maintaining status quo which for the west is the former.

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I guess the same thing can be asked as to who the far right are

Not really, they even have a wikipedia page lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Caucus and then the numerous Christian Nationalist and pro-authoritarian groups around the US, many of whom converged on DC on January 6, 2021.

[OrangeKhrush]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Not really, they even have a wikipedia page lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Caucus and then the numerous Christian Nationalist and pro-authoritarian groups around the US, many of whom converged on DC on January 6, 2021.

Is every Christian far right?  America is a secular state,  religious values may determine public policy,  but the Church does not rule.   It is not far right to consider the moral implication of abortion up to child birth,  but that a rational balance is needed ergo like 99% of the world the mean average is 12 weeks abortion is permitted on the consent of the mother,  after that it requires a medical professional to determine whether abortion is necessary based on rational factors such as health of the mother,  health of the child.    these are not Christian values they are just western moral values.   

Pro-Authoritarian,  I would say the current regime is very pro authoritarian,  political persecution and weaponization police and justice system against wrong think and trying to imprison and then kill a political opponent is all the kind of things that will make Vlad proud. 

I would say that about 80% of america whether democrat or republican are still very normal and not pushed to either extreme,  most will be Judeo/christian nuclear families that want simple things like safety,  liberty which is constrained in a Bill of Rights and rule of Law. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

8 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Is every Christian far right?  America is a secular state,  religious values may determine public policy,  but the Church does not rule.   It is not far right to consider the moral implication of abortion up to child birth,  but that a rational balance is needed ergo like 99% of the world the mean average is 12 weeks abortion is permitted on the consent of the mother,  after that it requires a medical professional to determine whether abortion is necessary based on rational factors such as health of the mother,  health of the child.    these are not Christian values they are just western moral values.   

Pro-Authoritarian,  I would say the current regime is very pro authoritarian,  political persecution and weaponization police and justice system against wrong think and trying to imprison and then kill a political opponent is all the kind of things that will make Vlad proud. 

I would say that about 80% of america whether democrat or republican are still very normal and not pushed to either extreme,  most will be Judeo/christian nuclear families that want simple things like safety,  liberty which is constrained in a Bill of Rights and rule of Law. 

At the bolded part, you're aware the values of the so called western world are pretty much based on this world's historical moral values deriving  from their religion and therefore Christianity? That alone should make your statement these weren't Christian values doubtful.

Edited July 22 by Rucksackfranzose

[Spike]

A state isn’t secular when religion is indirectly and directly determines policy. ‘In God We Trust’ and watchmaker analogy founding fathers, how is the USA secular?

[OrangeKhrush]

22 minutes ago, Spike said:

You are very interested in the purity of conservatism of history and customs for a South African. 

It is called the rainbow nation for a reason,  South Africa has a strong appreciation of our history,  even if that came with struggles.   We have a national anthem with 12 different languages,  we have preservation sites that secure customs and traditions of all from Ndebele, Siswati, Zulu to Afrikaner,  preserved because history is important to learn from.   

Yes we have African nationalists and Afrikaner nationalist however neither hold any significant power.  We have problems but moved on from that,  we have what is quoted as the best written Constitution and Bill of Rights document,  we have an independent judiciary and an independent electoral commission that exercise their scope beyond fear or favour from the executive and legislature.    We also have one of the best Labour and Union systems.