How Long Does Ole-Gunnar Solskjaer Have Left As Utd Boss?

[Danny]

1 minute ago, CaaC (John) said:

Then stick Pogba on the bench and play van de Beek 

I'd say in this scenario he's doing the right thing, Pogba is the better player, but generally when he's surrounded by world class players, not so much when you solely rely on him. But if you bench him you create unrest. Ole's doing well at maintaining squad harmony, literally doing the opposite of Mourinho there.

[Danny]

Just as a side point only one side in Premier League history have finished 3rd and at the same time achieved less points than Ole's United in his first full season, and that was the season Houllier took over fully at Liverpool. If that doesn't tell you how poor the teams were trying to finish 3rd and 4th I don't know what will. Very clearly part of the reason Ole finished 3rd was because of the lack of quality in the teams aiming to compete for the final 2 CL spaces.

Yes he is an inexperienced manager and yes his United team should technically get better as time goes on, but his first season in charge despite securing qualification for the Champions League was categorically not a good season for a team who finished 3rd, certainly not for a team who had spent £200m that season.

[CaaC (John)+]

2 minutes ago, Danny said:

I'd say in this scenario he's doing the right thing, Pogba is the better player, but generally when he's surrounded by world class players, not so much when you solely rely on him. But if you bench him you create unrest. Ole's doing well at maintaining squad harmony, literally doing the opposite of Mourinho there.

Sorry, buddy but to me, Pogba is a 28-year-old, £89.3 mill flop, plays the odd good game here and there but the rest of the time he is useless, I joked around with our son who is a Liverpool man would he like Pogba at Liverpool he said "No thanks, quite happy with what we have", all harmony United/Liverpudlian banter in this household. 

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, CaaC (John) said:

Sorry, buddy but to me, Pogba is a 28-year-old, £89.3 mill flop, plays the odd good game here and there but the rest of the time he is useless, I joked around with our son who is a Liverpool man would he like Pogba at Liverpool he said "No thanks, quite happy with what we have", all harmony United/Liverpudlian banter in this household. 

absolutely mad banter!!

[Danny]

1 minute ago, CaaC (John) said:

Sorry, buddy but to me, Pogba is a 28-year-old, £89.3 mill flop, plays the odd good game here and there but the rest of the time he is useless, I joked around with our son who is a Liverpool man would he like Pogba at Liverpool he said "No thanks, quite happy with what we have", all harmony United/Liverpudlian banter in this household. 

Not denying he's not done it consistently at United, just think Ole is doing the right thing by keeping everyone happy. Think VDB is happy to bite his tongue for now, if Pogba is still with you next season then I think VDB will kick up a fuss.

[Devil]

17 minutes ago, Danny said:

Mate I've judged the whole season, not 5 months, the whole season, the progression included you finishing on 66 points. It's not my fault your gaffer and board thought it was a good idea to spend £80m on Harry Maguire. Maybe if you had spent that money wisely you wouldn't of gone half a season without Fernandes, or a recognised striker.

And you look at this season, this is his second full season in charge, and I'm happy to fully judge him by the end of the season, but at this point, you still don't look as good at winning points as Mourinho's team did. And he was given bar Lukaku that exact team, plus nearly £300m to improve it.

 

That's a really blinkered way of looking at it mate, a rebuild includes removal of those not wanted from the squad plus a full change in the coaching set up. 

Nothing is built over night, Klopp didn't start out fantastic, look at his first starting eleven at Liverpool to what it is now. 

He's only had two transfer windows that haven't been hampered by Covid and he's sat second in the league. Yes, I agree we should be doing better with a 300 million pound outlay but that figure is pretty distorted when you consider what we needed and the fact that's only about four or five first team players. 

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, Devil said:

Yes, I agree we should be doing better with a 300 million pound outlay but that figure is pretty distorted when you consider what we needed and the fact that's only about four or five first team players. 

I think herein lies the issue though, not just with Man Utd, I'll add.

I know there have to be 'statement/marquee' signings by the big clubs but when will they realise that there is talent around that doesn't require spending upwards of £50m/60m/70m+ all the time? Maybe COVID will be the catalyst for clubs to reign it in a little but then having said that, the FFP changes perhaps negate that. 

It immediately adds pressure on to the player and then they become (relatively) a 'waste of money'.

[CaaC (John)+]

45 minutes ago, Danny said:

Not denying he's not done it consistently at United, just think Ole is doing the right thing by keeping everyone happy. Think VDB is happy to bite his tongue for now, if Pogba is still with you next season then I think VDB will kick up a fuss.

Read this if you want and believe it if you want, from the Stretty News...

" Is it Solskjaer’s fault these inept, penny-pinching leeches masquerading as football club owners are so utterly useless? Is it his fault that Ed Woodward, Matt Judge and Richard Arnold – the three Stooges – have faffed about all summer and not delivered on their promise that they would back Solskjaer with reinforcements once he delivered his side of the bargain and got us into the Champions League. Solskjaer took his list of targets to the board, identified who he wanted and even spoke directly to the players involved. He cannot do any more..."

[Devil]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

I think herein lies the issue though, not just with Man Utd, I'll add.

I know there have to be 'statement/marquee' signings by the big clubs but when will they realise that there is talent around that doesn't require spending upwards of £50m/60m/70m+ all the time? Maybe COVID will be the catalyst for clubs to reign it in a little but then having said that, the FFP changes perhaps negate that. 

It immediately adds pressure on to the player and then they become (relatively) a 'waste of money'.

Don't kid yourself into thinking there isn't a big club tax that gets added on either, the moment a player is mentioned with United his transfer fee seems to go up and clubs won't budge on that price. 

The a year down the line United have moved and that player sometimes moves for far less than was demanded of United. 

[Danny]

Just now, Devil said:

That's a really blinkered way of looking at it mate, a rebuild includes removal of those not wanted from the squad plus a full change in the coaching set up. 

Nothing is built over night, Klopp didn't start out fantastic, look at his first starting eleven at Liverpool to what it is now. 

He's only had two transfer windows that haven't been hampered by Covid and he's sat second in the league. Yes, I agree we should be doing better with a 300 million pound outlay but that figure is pretty distorted when you consider what we needed and the fact that's only about four or five first team players. 

But Mourinho literally took the same group of players to an 81 point finish, and all of a sudden a giant rebuild is needed 1 year later? You bring in a new manager to do better than the previous manager, or get back to that manager's optimum performance levels. Ole was brought in to challenge for the title, yet he had essentially the same group of players 1 year later, bar Lukaku, but with £200m to spend, and he finished 15 points worse off. He actually finished on the same points total the season previous, where you sacked your manager for being so bad. So it is completely acceptable to critique him for that, it was a poor first full season in charge that showed regression. Mourinho's first season in charge was by all standards pretty poor in the league, yet he accumulated more points than Ole did but finished lower in the table.

Klopp is a difficult comparison, in his first season at Liverpool he took over in October so had longer in the job than Ole did in his first season but still no pre-season, no Summer transfers. Ole's first full season he finished on the same points total as United did the season prior when they sacked Mourino, and that was with £200m spent. Klopp's first full season Liverpool spent about £70m and Klopp finished on 76 points, 16 points higher than the season he took over in. Klopp has shown continuous growth at Liverpool season after season (bar this season ofc) and he's done it spending nearly £250m less money in the same time frame as Man Utd.

Now of course we're not trying to compare the managers to use it as a stick to beat Ole with, Klopp is a manager only equalled or bettered by a handful of managers worldwide. But you just haven't seen anywhere near the same level of progression for United under Ole, so you can't really say Klopp needed this or that, because Klopp instantly improved Liverpool by about 16 points. Ole somehow spent £200m and still finished on the same points total as the season he took over.

[Danny]

27 minutes ago, Devil said:

That's a really blinkered way of looking at it mate, a rebuild includes removal of those not wanted from the squad plus a full change in the coaching set up. 

Nothing is built over night, Klopp didn't start out fantastic, look at his first starting eleven at Liverpool to what it is now. 

He's only had two transfer windows that haven't been hampered by Covid and he's sat second in the league. Yes, I agree we should be doing better with a 300 million pound outlay but that figure is pretty distorted when you consider what we needed and the fact that's only about four or five first team players. 

Just to add separately, I'm not saying he's completely shit, my opinion of him is that he has proven himself far more competent a manager than initially thought of and I think now he'd be a good punt for a lot of teams in the Premier League.

But there have been some absolutely wild defences of him here, especially considering he is the manager of Manchester United. Like saying you cannot criticise him for being a yes man by comparing him, a multi-millionaire who's job revolves around winning football matches and silverware to everyday people who need their jobs to prevent them from not being able to pay their mortgages or going homeless.

[Devil]

5 minutes ago, Danny said:

But Mourinho literally took the same group of players to an 81 point finish, and all of a sudden a giant rebuild is needed 1 year later? You bring in a new manager to do better than the previous manager, or get back to that manager's optimum performance levels. Ole was brought in to challenge for the title, yet he had essentially the same group of players 1 year later, bar Lukaku, but with £200m to spend, and he finished 15 points worse off. He actually finished on the same points total the season previous, where you sacked your manager for being so bad. So it is completely acceptable to critique him for that, it was a poor first full season in charge that showed regression. Mourinho's first season in charge was by all standards pretty poor in the league, yet he accumulated more points than Ole did but finished lower in the table.

Klopp is a difficult comparison, in his first season at Liverpool he took over in October so had longer in the job than Ole did in his first season but still no pre-season, no Summer transfers. Ole's first full season he finished on the same points total as United did the season prior when they sacked Mourino, and that was with £200m spent. Klopp's first full season Liverpool spent about £70m and Klopp finished on 76 points, 16 points higher than the season he took over in. Klopp has shown continuous growth at Liverpool season after season (bar this season ofc) and he's done it spending nearly £250m less money in the same time frame as Man Utd.

Now of course we're not trying to compare the managers to use it as a stick to beat Ole with, Klopp is a manager only equalled or bettered by a handful of managers worldwide. But you just haven't seen anywhere near the same level of progression for United under Ole, so you can't really say Klopp needed this or that, because Klopp instantly improved Liverpool by about 16 points. Ole somehow spent £200m and still finished on the same points total as the season he took over.

You've taken my Klopp comment and run away with it, I only said look at his team then and then compare it to now. 

Meaning it didn't happen over night, he made mistakes but he eventually built his eleven and look what he achieved. Maybe we should be destroying Klopp for thinking Karius was an acceptable goalkeeper for the period he was in the starting eleven.

Every decent United fan can see that team is at least three or four players away from being a very good side, I don't believe it's fully fair to judge a man until he's got exactly what he want's and I also don't believe it's fair to judge a man on the odd transfer mistake. If we did that we'd be saying Klopp was crap wouldn't we. 

[Inverted]

I think he is a pretty good manager, the issue is just that the bar to win the PL recently has went from "pretty good" to "almost perfect". 

So I don't know if United are really aiming to hit that level, or if it is enough for them to be close behind and wait for a season where City and Liverpool both slip at the same time. 

[Devil]

5 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I think he is a pretty good manager, the issue is just that the bar to win the PL recently has went from "pretty good" to "almost perfect". 

So I don't know if United are really aiming to hit that level, or if it is enough for them to be close behind and wait for a season where City and Liverpool both slip at the same time. 

I think the thinking is putting a long term structure in place to repair the destructive work of the last three managers. 

Moyes - Replaced all of Sir Alex's men with coaching staff of a lesser calibre.

LVG - Signed so many poor players some of which we've had to practically give away. 

Mourinho - Me, me, me, it's all about me and signing players for the now and not the future. 

[Danny]

18 minutes ago, Devil said:

You've taken my Klopp comment and run away with it, I only said look at his team then and then compare it to now. 

Meaning it didn't happen over night, he made mistakes but he eventually built his eleven and look what he achieved. Maybe we should be destroying Klopp for thinking Karius was an acceptable goalkeeper for the period he was in the starting eleven.

Every decent United fan can see that team is at least three or four players away from being a very good side, I don't believe it's fully fair to judge a man until he's got exactly what he want's and I also don't believe it's fair to judge a man on the odd transfer mistake. If we did that we'd be saying Klopp was crap wouldn't we. 

Tbh mate this whole discussion has run away from the original points, which were the competition for the places you occupy this season and last season were nearly non-existent as all the teams competing for 2nd this season and 3rd last season just aren't really that good.

[Danny]

15 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I think he is a pretty good manager, the issue is just that the bar to win the PL recently has went from "pretty good" to "almost perfect". 

So I don't know if United are really aiming to hit that level, or if it is enough for them to be close behind and wait for a season where City and Liverpool both slip at the same time. 

I think as long as they finish in the top 4 they'll be happy to have him on as it'll allow the commercial side of the club to operate at full tilt

[Danny]

Look I am very happy to admit that this discussion has got out of hand and will graciously admit that it has all been @DeadLinesman's fault

[CaaC (John)+]

4 minutes ago, Danny said:

Look I am very happy to admit that this discussion has got out of hand and will graciously admit that it has all been @DeadLinesman's fault

You sound like the wife, anything happens in this flat she blames me!!!!

[Danny]

2 minutes ago, CaaC (John) said:

You sound like the wife, anything happens in this flat she blames me!!!!

I'm sure we can come to an arrangement to put all of the blame on you if you like John 

[CaaC (John)+]

2 minutes ago, Danny said:

I'm sure we can come to an arrangement to put all of the blame on you if you like John 

Na, you stick with Phil 

[Dan+]

8 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Anyone would think the bloke was in full time employment like the rest of the universe. How many of us here work, are pretty much complicit with the shite that goes on at senior management level, but just get on with it because you’re employed and earning a salary? Yes, fucking everyone. Jesus.

I’m not massively into him as long term manager, but there’s a complete lack of reality from some posters on here. Last year, we scraped third because Leicester bottled it and everyone else was shite. This year, we’re in second because everyone else is shite. If he happens to do decent next year, you’ve got the excuse ready lads. Bores me to fucking tears reading it. He’s being compared to Steve Bruce ffs. Steve. Fucking. Bruce.

I’m out. I said a while back you can’t have a decent conversation with people that are so blinded by some weird hatred/bias/negativity that they can’t even post a response that has some balanced judgment in it.

The bloke could run into burning orphanage, save 30 kids and it would be the flames fault for not killing them quickly enough.

In that they're both yes men, both got the jobs they're in because they were both probably gobsmacked to reach such a level after doing so little. See also Lampard, Pirlo, Koeman.

The potential that he's kept on even if you fail to win a competition that you dropped into and are far better resourced than any other team in it should ring alarm bells. Suppose top 4 is the only priority now. We've seen what that has done to Arsenal in the long run.

[Dan+]

Danny's articulated it all a lot better than I did anyway. My dig, if anything, was at the board and the complete lack of ambition shown. No trophy in coming up to 4 years, did qualify for the Champions League last season, which for me, as Manchester United manager is the barest minimum - yet bombed out of it having held a pretty comfortable position, losing to an abject Basaksehir and then Leipzig, and the board somehow think it's acceptable to not only do that, but not win the Europa League as well. That was what it said in the article - he's safe even if they don't win the Europa League.

I could understand if this was say Tottenham, or Everton, but fuck me, I just can't grasp how Manchester United fans can watch such a regression in recent years, even more insult added to injury when you see your two biggest rivals winning big trophies and defend the fact your manager would survive the chop if he went out of the Europa League to Granada. I stand by what I said, the standards have totally plummetted. It genuinely shocks me that I see the majority of fans defending it. I can only conclude it's due to the ex-player link which makes me hope we never go up that route unless they've truly proven themselves.

I dispute he's done that well. Probably better than I thought he would but my expectations were incredibly low in the first place and I'm not saying that as somebody who has the interests of Manchester United doing well, whilst your fans should do. He's gotten a top four finish last season and will almost certainly do it again this season, to me with your squad that is the barest minimum, frequently bombing out of cups to beatable sides. If you're happy with just top 4 every season and no trophies then so be it, but it shocks me, and particularly with your rivals doing so much more. Like Danny said, if he wasn't an ex player I don't even think this is a discussion.

[Devil]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

Danny's articulated it all a lot better than I did anyway. My dig, if anything, was at the board and the complete lack of ambition shown. No trophy in coming up to 4 years, did qualify for the Champions League last season, which for me, as Manchester United manager is the barest minimum - yet bombed out of it having held a pretty comfortable position, losing to an abject Basaksehir and then Leipzig, and the board somehow think it's acceptable to not only do that, but not win the Europa League as well. That was what it said in the article - he's safe even if they don't win the Europa League.

I could understand if this was say Tottenham, or Everton, but fuck me, I just can't grasp how Manchester United fans can watch such a regression in recent years, even more insult added to injury when you see your two biggest rivals winning big trophies and defend the fact your manager would survive the chop if he went out of the Europa League to Granada. I stand by what I said, the standards have totally plummetted. It genuinely shocks me that I see the majority of fans defending it. I can only conclude it's due to the ex-player link which makes me hope we never go up that route unless they've truly proven themselves.

I dispute he's done that well. Probably better than I thought he would but my expectations were incredibly low in the first place and I'm not saying that as somebody who has the interests of Manchester United doing well, whilst your fans should do. He's gotten a top four finish last season and will almost certainly do it again this season, to me with your squad that is the barest minimum, frequently bombing out of cups to beatable sides. If you're happy with just top 4 every season and no trophies then so be it, but it shocks me, and particularly with your rivals doing so much more. Like Danny said, if he wasn't an ex player I don't even think this is a discussion.

I don't think anyone said at any time they were happy seeing us win no trophies but the reality is you can't build a title winning side overnight. 

He signs a new contract that means nothing anyway, if he were to  underperform then he would still lose his job. 

They will give him another season and if he won nothing again I'm certain they'd consider his position. 

[Dan+]

3 minutes ago, Devil said:

I don't think anyone said at any time they were happy seeing us win no trophies but the reality is you can't build a title winning side overnight. 

He signs a new contract that means nothing anyway, if he were to  underperform then he would still lose his job. 

They will give him another season and if he won nothing again I'm certain they'd consider his position. 

Overnight no, but it doesn't take as long as people think, especially not for a club of your size, do you think you'll come above Chelsea next season? I personally would say not.

I firmly believe based on that article there, if he finished 4th next season as well with no trophies he'd hold onto his job. I don't think your owners see trophies as any kind of achievement.

[Devil]

2 minutes ago, Dan said:

Overnight no, but it doesn't take as long as people think, especially not for a club of your size, do you think you'll come above Chelsea next season? I personally would say not.

I firmly believe based on that article there, if he finished 4th next season as well with no trophies he'd hold onto his job. I don't think your owners see trophies as any kind of achievement.

You personally don't believe we will finish above Chelsea. 

Well that means as much as me saying Villa are going to win the league. How can you say that, we are well ahead of Chelsea and with investment in the summer I believe we will be stronger again. 

Three players and I think we're in business, Sancho another CB and a midfielder. 

Martial, Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood can bag plenty of goals.