UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

It’s because despite all these remainers creaming over bs polls in which they’ve put a 3rd option to split the leave vote so remain looks popular again, the Tory’s know from their consistents that if May takes them & this deal to a general election they will be decimated. The fucking stubborn cunt won’t go though. 

At least she has a new answer to what’s the worst thing you’ve done “botched Brexit, decimating the Tory party and handing the keys to no 10 to an anti Semitic terrorist sympathising Marxist, who will then decimate the country” is better than running through a corn field. 

Anna Soubry who is an MP for the constituency for Broxtowe in Nottinghamshire publicly stated on a radio debate that she would go for a new referendum and try to convince her constituents that staying is in the best interests of all now that we have all the facts.  This from a constituency MP where her constituents voted by a majority to leave.

She said that her duty is to the country as a Member of Parliament and acting upon the knowledge of what's best for the people she represents. 

[Stan]

 

[SirBalon]

 

And relevant to why Theresa May has rushed off to talk to European leaders on the Irish Border issue...

 

[Fairy In Boots]

8 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Anna Soubry who is an MP for the constituency for Broxtowe in Nottinghamshire publicly stated on a radio debate that she would go for a new referendum and try to convince her constituents that staying is in the best interests of all now that we have all the facts.  This from a constituency MP where her constituents voted by a majority to leave.

She said that her duty is to the country as a Member of Parliament and acting upon the knowledge of what's best for the people she represents. 

And Anna Soubry will lose her seat, she’s politically irrelevant and will only fade away. As will Tory support, grassroots Tory’s are Eurosceptics and massively at odds with the politicians. I can genuinely see the party splitting

[Stan]

May gets vote of confidence by her party.

 

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

Over 100 votes against though.

Yep. Not a very good result for her, despite the 'confidence' vote. 

It's like the 'dreaded vote of confidence' in FM!

[Honey Honey]

Just watching BBC News and Jacob Rees Mogg looks an awful lot like Hitler in this lighting 

[SirBalon]

"Shoes for peasants"

[SirBalon]

The reason they didn't vote her out is because they're cowards and don't want the poisoned challice.  I'd love to see Davis, The bumbling fool or Shoes for peasants take the helm and back what up their claims of being able to bring in a better deal... Oops, the had the chance, they were Infact part of the negotiations and chickened out.

[Fairy In Boots]

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

The reason they didn't vote her out is because they're cowards and don't want the poisoned challice.  I'd love to see Davis, The bumbling fool or Shoes for peasants take the helm and back what up their claims of being able to bring in a better deal... Oops, the had the chance, they were Infact part of the negotiations and chickened out.

More like resigned in frustration because the position was effectively ceremonial. Brexit has been negotiatied by her gaggle of remain civil servants she surrounds herself with. They effectively manager her and by proxy the county & it’s brecit negotiations,  contemptuous acts like deferring the vote etc, it’s all the crowd behind her. 

117 is significant it’s worse than Major, she’s a lame duck, plus such is the anger at grassroots level that the death of “one nation” conservatives is assured now. 

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

More like resigned in frustration because the position was effectively ceremonial. Brexit has been negotiatied by her gaggle of remain civil servants she surrounds herself with. They effectively manager her and by proxy the county & it’s brecit negotiations,  contemptuous acts like deferring the vote etc, it’s all the crowd behind her. 

117 is significant it’s worse than Major, she’s a lame duck, plus such is the anger at grassroots level that the death of “one nation” conservatives is assured now. 

That's rubbish FIB... Davis was the one negotiating and they were Putin in those positions to do the job in hand.  They resigned because they couldn't provide what they had dreamt up and saw it was all going pear shaped.  In the case of Johnson it's simply because of his aspirations to be the Prime Minister.

[SirBalon]

When David Davis was quizzed on this picture why he didn't have any documents, not notes, nothing to show for the negotiations in front of the Euro negotiators.  People may think this is a cheap joke, but I can assure it's very real, no joke and this was Davis' genuine answer as to why he had no notes, nothing prepared compared to his Europe counterparts.

"One doesn't need documents and notes when one has it all in his head... Ey!"

That "Ey!" Bit if you can picture when someone is more in the know than somebody else and they make a statement with almost a wink while tapping they head with two fingers and sayin "Ey!".

He wasn't even prepared!

Davis apparently admitted to various members of his own circle that he knew nothing about what had suddenly had started to unravel during Brexit negotiations.  But he shouldn't feel embarrassed because most of the government didn't know as has been seen with the Irish border issue on which every politician has said they didn't see that coming.

 

What happens is that when people really really want something, they tend to ignore facts as long as there are others feeding them that unicorns still exist and if they trust them, they will provide them.

What we continue to have with those Brexiters that continue to be stubborn is their "belief" which isn't ever built in facts... They can never offer anything substantial to the argument on exactly what can be provided as a better solution for the future compared to staying in the EU.  Infact (believe it or not), many Brexiters (not all, they're not all crazy) will state that they'd rather be poorer than be in the EU.  That's no lie!  Even when they have children they'll say this.

[SirBalon]

3,500 troops on stand-by in the event of a No-Deal Brexit crisis, MPs told

 

Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary, has been in the Commons making a statement about defence modernisation. During the exchanges the Tory MP Will Quince asked Williamson if he had received “any approaches from other government departments about using our world-class armed forces personnel in the event of a no-deal Brexit”.

Williamson replied: 

We’ve as yet not had any formal requests from any government departments. But what are doing is putting contingency plans in place, and what we will do is have 3,500 service personnel held at readiness, including regulars and reserves, in order to support any government department on any contingencies they may need.

Downing Street lobby briefing - Snap summary

This is what the prime minister’s spokesman told journalists about today’s cabinet meeting.

Cabinet this morning discussed the ongoing preparations for leaving the European Union.

They agreed that delivering the deal that the prime minister agreed with Brussels remains the government’s top priority and our best no deal mitigation.

However, the government’s continued duty is to prepare for every eventuality, including a no-deal situation.

Ministers acknowledged the extensive the steps undertaken to do this, including publishing 106 technical notices and 320 no-deal workstreams ongoing across departments.

Cabinet agreed that, with just over three months until our exit from the European Union, we have now reached the point were we need to ramp up these preparations. This means we will now set in motion the remaining elements of our no-deal plans.

Cabinet also agreed to recommend businesses now also ensure they are similarly prepared, enacting their own no-deal plans as they judge necessary.

Citizens should also prepare in line with the technical notices issued in the summer and in line with further, more detailed advice that will now be issued over the coming weeks.

And here are the main points.

• The cabinet has agreed to implement the government’s no-deal Brexit plans “in full”. The spokesman told reporters: “We have our no-deal plans and we will implement them in full.”

• Businesses and individuals are being told by the government to prepare for a no-deal Brexit - even though the spokesman also said that the government thought that leaving with a deal remained the “most likely scenario”. A publicity campaign will be launched to provide people with the information they need.

• Some 80,000 emails are going out to businesses and business groups this week with advice about no-deal planning. A 100-page Partnership Pack will also be available online to provide firms with information about what they need to do.

• The Treasury will shortly provide information about how an extra £2bn allocated for no-deal planning will be spent.

[SirBalon]

One thing both Brexiters and Remainers can agree on is that this government is the worst one in living memory and possibly (I would say with certainty) is the worst in the history of the United Kingdom as a union.

How Labour aren't a million light years ahead of any prediction poll relating to a future General Election is astounding and Labour members have only their leader and their present left-wing extremist setup to blame. 

What the UK doesn't need right now are extremes on either side of the spectrum... Much less liars selling unicorns to the fantasists. 

We have the facts, we have the only truth available and I only wish someone with weight (doesn't seem to exist) could come forward and take control.

[Honey Honey]

"Worst" is quite subjective and depends on your own measurements and preferences. It is probably the weakest government in practice, but then it's a hung parliament on a confidence and supply ticket so on paper it always was the weakest anyway.

I don't understand what is astounding about Labour not being ahead? They achieved their highest vote % for a long time by fudging the main issue of the day at GE2017 and avoiding their own day of reckoning. Which Blairite policies do you have in mind that would entice someone away from the Tory party without having a knock on effect of their own current vote? 

It's easy to pin everything on Corbyn and absolve oneself of blame. Reality out there is that the Labour party is riddled by association with war criminals, hasbeen politicians and condescending attitudes to leave from its grassroots chattering class who are for the Corbyn cause a political loss in an opinion diverse country. Whilst Corbyn tries to channel hatred towards exploitation by businesses and the super rich, the grassroots chattering class and the Blairites are busy stripping potential voters of their sense of agency and their right to an observation. Corbyn's power is precariously balanced as the creeping people's vote risks knocking him off the fence and exposing fault lines in support.

[SirBalon]

6 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

"Worst" is quite subjective and depends on your own measurements and preferences. It is probably the weakest government in practice, but then it's a hung parliament on a confidence and supply ticket so on paper it always was the weakest anyway.

I don't understand what is astounding about Labour not being ahead? They achieved their highest vote % for a long time by fudging the main issue of the day at GE2017 and avoiding their own day of reckoning. Which Blairite policies do you have in mind that would entice someone away from the Tory party without having a knock on effect of their own current vote? 

It's easy to pin everything on Corbyn and absolve oneself of blame. Reality out there is that the Labour party is riddled by association with war criminals, hasbeen politicians and condescending attitudes to leave from its grassroots chattering class who are for the Corbyn cause a political loss in an opinion diverse country. Whilst Corbyn tries to channel hatred towards exploitation by businesses and the super rich, the grassroots chattering class and the Blairites are busy stripping potential voters of their sense of agency and their right to an observation.

Corbynism (because it’s now officially a political and ideological standpoint) only works as an official opposing mantra with various points tobe taken seriously while others are to be flushed down the toilet.

There’s no denying that certain aspects of his beliefs are there to be included within the multitude of others he doesn’t care about. But here we’re debating the UK’s biggest mistake ever and how the opposition don’t know exactly where they stand to take a very easy advantage. 

[Honey Honey]

38 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Corbynism (because it’s now officially a political and ideological standpoint) only works as an official opposing mantra with various points tobe taken seriously while others are to be flushed down the toilet.

Maybe for the status quo neo-liberals on the left. Yet when backed into needing to make a choice there are situations in which they will vote for Corbyn even if it gives him power. Whether certain actions can get through when he is in power is something else.

 

38 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

There’s no denying that certain aspects of his beliefs are there to be included within the multitude of others he doesn’t care about. But here we’re debating the UK’s biggest mistake ever and how the opposition don’t know exactly where they stand to take a very easy advantage. 

Are you aware that the "UK's biggest mistake ever" comes across as both ludicrous and condescending to swathes of people? It deligitimises the main point of your own argument given that the intent is to win people over.

The Corbyn dilemma is that he has to distance himself from people like you whilst simultaneously holding your support. It's a juggling act in which eventually he's probably going to drop the ball. 

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, Harvsky said:

Maybe for the status quo neo-liberals on the left. Yet when backed into needing to make a choice there are situations in which they will vote for Corbyn even if it gives him power. Whether certain actions can get through when he is in power is something else.

 

Are you aware that the "UK's biggest mistake ever" comes across as both ludicrous and condescending to swathes of people? It deligitimises the main point of your own argument given that the intent is to win people over.

The Corbyn dilemma is that he has to distance himself from people like you whilst simultaneously holding your support. It's a juggling act in which eventually he's probably going to drop the ball. 

Of course I'm aware of that and that is my biggest lament.  The fact that give or take a negligent amount of the population we're split 50/50 as a nation this is sad, very sad indeed.

I don't blame many of those that voted and maintain to hold the ideals behind their reasons to vote in that manner because those that are to blame are the politicians who whether innocently or benefitting in whatever manner that abides by their political standing, they know who they are and they should be ashamed of themselves. 

What we have here are sentiments versus facts!  That's the only thing that counts and anyone that maintains that they can have their cake and eat it where the EU is concerned in all of its aspects regarding a leave outcome are more than just deluded.  Only visualise the facts, not the conditioning, manipulative rhetoric.

Right now having compassion for those that maintain their fantastical vision has ended.  Now we're into the serious part of the finale, and I haven't got time for understanding fantasy.  I personally committed an error and would like the opportunity to correct it.  From there on, with the knowledge that's been made available to the general populous, I would stand firm on any result and go with it while fundamentally acting upon it from a personal point of view at its conclusion.

We have come a long way where national politics are concerned.  We have all been educated in that sense and there are no more pardons to be handed out for the more innocent.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, SirBalon said:

3,500 troops on stand-by in the event of a No-Deal Brexit crisis, MPs told

 

Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary, has been in the Commons making a statement about defence modernisation. During the exchanges the Tory MP Will Quince asked Williamson if he had received “any approaches from other government departments about using our world-class armed forces personnel in the event of a no-deal Brexit”.

Williamson replied: 

We’ve as yet not had any formal requests from any government departments. But what are doing is putting contingency plans in place, and what we will do is have 3,500 service personnel held at readiness, including regulars and reserves, in order to support any government department on any contingencies they may need.

Downing Street lobby briefing - Snap summary

This is what the prime minister’s spokesman told journalists about today’s cabinet meeting.

Cabinet this morning discussed the ongoing preparations for leaving the European Union.

They agreed that delivering the deal that the prime minister agreed with Brussels remains the government’s top priority and our best no deal mitigation.

However, the government’s continued duty is to prepare for every eventuality, including a no-deal situation.

Ministers acknowledged the extensive the steps undertaken to do this, including publishing 106 technical notices and 320 no-deal workstreams ongoing across departments.

Cabinet agreed that, with just over three months until our exit from the European Union, we have now reached the point were we need to ramp up these preparations. This means we will now set in motion the remaining elements of our no-deal plans.

Cabinet also agreed to recommend businesses now also ensure they are similarly prepared, enacting their own no-deal plans as they judge necessary.

Citizens should also prepare in line with the technical notices issued in the summer and in line with further, more detailed advice that will now be issued over the coming weeks.

And here are the main points.

• The cabinet has agreed to implement the government’s no-deal Brexit plans “in full”. The spokesman told reporters: “We have our no-deal plans and we will implement them in full.”

• Businesses and individuals are being told by the government to prepare for a no-deal Brexit - even though the spokesman also said that the government thought that leaving with a deal remained the “most likely scenario”. A publicity campaign will be launched to provide people with the information they need.

• Some 80,000 emails are going out to businesses and business groups this week with advice about no-deal planning. A 100-page Partnership Pack will also be available online to provide firms with information about what they need to do.

• The Treasury will shortly provide information about how an extra £2bn allocated for no-deal planning will be spent.

Did they think this would get buried because of the Mourinho news?

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Did they think this would get buried because of the Mourinho news?

I blame you for extracting a laugh out of the current situation. You scoundrel!  

[Dr. Gonzo]

This one needs a subscription, but I'll paste it for everyone: https://www.ft.com/content/05aebdfc-021d-11e9-99df-6183d3002ee1
 

Quote

 

UK businesses have “hit pause” on growth plans and will not step up investment next year even if the government avoids a cliff edge Brexit, according to the British Chambers of Commerce.

The lobby group, which represents 52 regional chambers of commerce, is the latest organisation to warn that the paralysis in Westminster was spreading to boardrooms, with businesses unable to take decisions until they had more clarity on how the UK would trade with the EU after March.

“With firms looking on with utter dismay at the ongoing saga in Westminster, many have hit pause on major investment plans, including plant, machinery and premises,” the BCC said, as it forecast subdued economic growth of 1.3 per cent for 2019 and 1.5 per cent in 2020.

It gave an even bleaker outlook for business investment, which it said would rise by a mere 0.1 per cent in 2019, after declining by 0.6 per cent this year.

These forecasts assumed the UK would reach an agreement with the EU to avoid a no deal Brexit in March, and would at least sketch out the outlines of a trade deal to underpin the longer-term relationship. A no-deal Brexit would cause much more significant damage, the BCC said.

“With just over 100 days to go until the UK leaves the EU . . . businesses are having to take action, delaying or pulling hiring and investment plans and, in some cases, moving operations elsewhere in order to maintain hard-won supply chains,” said Adam Marshall, the BCC’s director-general.

The BCC’s forecasts mirror the trend seen in official data, which show investment by UK companies has fallen for three consecutive quarters. The figures can be volatile and prone to revision, but they match the picture painted by other business groups, such as the EEF manufacturers’ organisation, which reported a sharp decline in its members’ investment and hiring intentions in the fourth quarter.

Policymakers at the Bank of England have also called attention for some time to Brexit’s dampening effect on investment, at a time when businesses would usually be keen to take advantage of low interest rates, a weak pound and robust economic growth in many overseas markets.

“Every day in which a Brexit deal is not agreed upon represents an extra day of uncertainty and therefore lower business investment than would otherwise have been the case,” said George Buckley, economist at Nomura, who predicted the BoE would be forced to delay any increase in interest rates until after Brexit, even if the government were able to win parliamentary approval for its plans.

 

I imagine just an announcement that we're remaining in the single-market would put a stop that.

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Of course I'm aware of that and that is my biggest lament.  The fact that give or take a negligent amount of the population we're split 50/50 as a nation this is sad, very sad indeed.

I don't blame many of those that voted and maintain to hold the ideals behind their reasons to vote in that manner because those that are to blame are the politicians who whether innocently or benefitting in whatever manner that abides by their political standing, they know who they are and they should be ashamed of themselves. 

What we have here are sentiments versus facts!  That's the only thing that counts and anyone that maintains that they can have their cake and eat it where the EU is concerned in all of its aspects regarding a leave outcome are more than just deluded.  Only visualise the facts, not the conditioning, manipulative rhetoric.

Right now having compassion for those that maintain their fantastical vision has ended.  Now we're into the serious part of the finale, and I haven't got time for understanding fantasy.  I personally committed an error and would like the opportunity to correct it.  From there on, with the knowledge that's been made available to the general populous, I would stand firm on any result and go with it while fundamentally acting upon it from a personal point of view at its conclusion.

We have come a long way where national politics are concerned.  We have all been educated in that sense and there are no more pardons to be handed out for the more innocent.

The reason I can't get behind your facts argument is that although I can accept new facts may have changed your personal judgment, your posts are repeatedly and predominately filled with assumptions, predictions and emotion. Facts are often lacking or sometimes flimsy and posited in a manner that wrongly denies ambiguity over a matter. I'll give you an example. Earlier you said Norway doesn't want us in the EEA having read an article by a backbench pro-EU MP, however she directly contradicted the Norweigen Prime Minister's opinion on the matter. There is major ambiguity at play in Brexit and people must still choose based on predictive assumptions and personal values. That will show in any 2nd referendum. You can append facts to the whole or start your position from them but ultimately there is so much ambiguity that as soon as your entire position is under the microscope facts no longer suffice. You are still to give significant weight to things that aren't facts or things which aren't set in stone, largely adopted from those spouted by people you trust or which confirms a bias. There are still positives and negatives to be weighed up according to values. By and large the people's vote support appears to be driven by panic from assumptions or the loss of identity from certain held values. It's really snidey at heart but might address the consitutional deadlock within the establishment. The far right can't get through FPTP and the returning voters who abandoned or refused to take up politics under Blair would go back to never voting again.

[SirBalon]

6 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

The reason I can't get behind your facts argument is that although I can accept new facts may have changed your personal judgment, your posts are repeatedly and predominately filled with assumptions, predictions and emotion. Facts are often lacking or sometimes flimsy and posited in a manner that wrongly denies ambiguity over a matter. I'll give you an example. Earlier you said Norway doesn't want us in the EEA having read an article by a backbench pro-EU MP, however she directly contradicted the Norweigen Prime Minister's opinion on the matter. There is major ambiguity at play in Brexit and people must still choose based on predictive assumptions and personal values. That will show in any 2nd referendum. You can append facts to the whole or start your position from them but ultimately there is so much ambiguity that as soon as your entire position is under the microscope facts no longer suffice. You are still to give significant weight to things that aren't facts or things which aren't set in stone, largely adopted from those spouted by people you trust. There are still positives and negatives to be weighed up according to values. By and large the people's vote support appears to be driven by panic from assumptions or the loss of identity from certain held values. It's really snidey at heart but might address the consitutional deadlock within the establishment. The far right can't get through FPTP and the returning voters who abandoned or refused to take up politics under Blair would go back to never voting again.

Im afraid that's not the case!

Their was a referendum, the only referendum that was executed to date and there were things that were promised (documented) that haven't come to fruition and won't.  Not just that, there were things that were said that were lies or down right fabrication.  Those are the ones that have to produce, not the other half of the population.

As for refuting something. Refutre it with facts!

Dont just some that someone is speaking with emotion of basing it on what someone they trust has said.  Something I would say every single person, yourself included will be in the same pocket.  Refute the claims that this is the biggest error in the country's history with facts and not just playing it by using what you yourself are criticising which is what people say.

[Honey Honey]

47 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Im afraid that's not the case!

Their was a referendum, the only referendum that was executed to date and there were things that were promised (documented) that haven't come to fruition and won't.  Not just that, there were things that were said that were lies or down right fabrication.  Those are the ones that have to produce, not the other half of the population.

As for refuting something. Refutre it with facts!

Dont just some that someone is speaking with emotion of basing it on what someone they trust has said.  Something I would say every single person, yourself included will be in the same pocket.  Refute the claims that this is the biggest error in the country's history with facts and not just playing it by using what you yourself are criticising which is what people say.

The future is uncertain by definition. There can be no facts of the future in the present so it is wrong to expect anything other than why something is ambiguous. It has been too laborious for me to bother doing here for the last 2 years but if you extend your news sources you'll find it anyway. What I am refuting is the whole way you are extending certainty beyond its limit, loading everything with the kind of hyperbole you would call fabrication when it's attributed to a position you oppose.

You ask for facts but the very statement that this is the biggest error in the countries history requires subjective quantification against historical events, how do you get facts out of that? I personally consider that time one million men were slaughtered and many more wounded for a difficult to justify stalemate war to be worse than leaving a political union, that's my opinion it is not a fact.

Things were said in the campaign that did not come to fruition. In other words, the same as every election we've ever had an ever will have until we have regulation. But let's have another before that regulation? In the current situation you had your first chance to express your changed opinion in 2017 when you voted for Corbyn over the lib dems. The people's vote is snidey as it is full of supporters pretending their whole raison d'etre is nothing to do with remaining having fucked up the general election.

[SirBalon]

16 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

The future is uncertain by definition. There can be no facts of the future in the present so it is wrong to expect anything other than why something is ambiguous. It has been too laborious for me to bother doing here for the last 2 years but if you extend your news sources you'll find it anyway. What I am refuting is the whole way you are extending certainty beyond its limit, loading everything with the kind of hyperbole you would call fabrication when it's attributed to a position you oppose.

You ask for facts but the very statement that this is the biggest error in the countries history requires subjective quantification against historical events, how do you get facts out of that? I personally consider that time one million men were slaughtered and many more wounded for a difficult to justify stalemate war to be worse than leaving a political union, that's my opinion it is not a fact.

Things were said in the campaign that did not come to fruition. In other words, the same as every election we've ever had an ever will have until we have regulation. But let's have another before that regulation? In the current situation you had your first chance to express your changed opinion in 2017 when you voted for Corbyn over the lib dems. The people's vote is snidey as it is full of supporters pretending their whole raison d'etre is nothing to do with remaining having fucked up the general election.

I'm afraid not.

There are FACTS as to what we are leaving behind with the biggest and most powerful trading market on the planet with all of its rules and regulations we've participated in making. There are FACTS as to how the WTO works and how we stand to lose by comparison.

There are FACTS on the Good Friday Agreement, an international peace treaty that shouldn't be broken.

I haven't got time because this is a busy period of the year for me and I work tomorrow. But I am aware of all the facts, of all the benefits of staying in the EU and the wishing of what could happen if we leave where a good prospect is concerned.  Don't patronise me and my change of viewpoint on Brexit. 

You state your view as I have been doing wit mine.