UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[SirBalon]

Niiiice

I wonder who this individual will be voting for?

I bet anything he’s not a remainer either  

That question actually tells a story and encompasses the state of England.

Because the original tweet Lammy is answering is under investigation.

 

[SirBalon]

We do indeed live in curuous times, quite shocking times to be honest.

Why such a senior party member be standing down at a time like this is beyond me, but what's for sure is that this letter of resignation below does not tell the truth. But then again I wouldn't have expected him to cause a perfect storm against the party I more than am positive still wants to win the General Election. Only that he has decided it will be without the deputy leader of the party. I'm not going to go into all the small details of what's been going on recently to add more fuel to this especially what was tried on him by his party seniors and union members during the Labour Party congress... Let's just leave it as being a vital blow for Labour right now... Food for the wankers on the other side to use so as to divert attention from their disgusting opinions on people less fortunate than them.

One of my favourite politicians is deleted from the active political map...

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 05/11/2019 at 11:31, Fairy In Boots said:

I always find it fascinating that people on here believe labour are genuinely capable of running a government under the control of Corbyn, MAC & Abbott. 

Im just genuinely astounded that you can convince yourselves that it’s a legitimate use of a vote. 

I’ll vote for Boris, preference would be for Brexit as not a big fan of Boris’s deal but too many morons will vote for the Marxist so have to put the country first and protect us from that clown. 

 

Step 1: condemn people for voting for people because of a theoretically incompetent government.

Step 2: then throw your support behind a government led by Boris Johnson.

[Guest]

@SirBalon who can vote in the referendum if there is one? I know you were allowed to. Are the people who came in 2005 allowed to or do they have to have been here for longer and have British citizenship?

[Guest]

@Fairy In Boots Corbyn isn't a marksist. He doesn't want to completely control the economy. Socialism isn't Marxism, isn't Communism. They are linked but they aren't the same. The fact that you call him one shows that you are so biased that most things you say should be dismissed out of hand. You say you care about the country. Between 90 and 98 percent of economists think we won't be better of out of the European Union. The absolute minimum is 90 percent. But you are probably fed up of listening to experts.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Guest

[SirBalon]

20 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@SirBalon who can vote in the referendum if there is one? I know you were allowed to. Are the people who came in 2005 allowed to or do they have to have been here for longer and have British citizenship?

Anyone that can vote in a General Election can also vote in a Referendum. 

You have to be British, Irish, Commonwealth citizen with residence in the UK or a British Citizen living abroad that is registered to vote in the last 15 years. Oh, and over 18 in all cases!

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Anyone that can vote in a General Election can also vote in a Referendum. 

You have to be British, Irish, Commonwealth citizen with residence in the UK or a British Citizen living abroad that is registered to vote in the last 15 years. Oh, and over 18 in all cases!

Can you expand on the commonwealth part. I'm assuming you don't mean someone from Australia can come over and vote and then go home

[RandoEFC+]

It turns out I can register to vote from the Isle of Man, as I have a UK passport and was a permanent resident in the past 15 years. I was going to, but I would have to vote in my old constituency in Chorley, where the new speaker Mr Hoyle is the MP, and won by a majority of 7k-8k last time, so it turns out there's not much point. However, if there's any chance of another referendum then it would be wise for me to register again anyway.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It turns out I can register to vote from the Isle of Man, as I have a UK passport and was a permanent resident in the past 15 years. I was going to, but I would have to vote in my old constituency in Chorley, where the new speaker Mr Hoyle is the MP, and won by a majority of 7k-8k last time, so it turns out there's not much point. However, if there's any chance of another referendum then it would be wise for me to register again anyway.

Isle of man not part of the Uk? Didn't do well in geography 

Whatever happens it will be shit. Boris or Corbyn will be pm. Rather have Corbyn though obviously 

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Isle of man not part of the Uk? Didn't do well in geography 

Whatever happens it will be shit. Boris or Corbyn will be pm. Rather have Corbyn though obviously 

It's a weird one because we have our own 'parliament' of about 30 MHKs (members of the house of keys). Even I couldn't tell you whether we're part of the UK because it's such a grey area, but we don't vote in UK elections because we have our own parliament. Which is mental in itself because if we had one MP who represented us in the Commons we'd still be a relatively small constituency at 85000 people, yet we have 30 MHKs making up our own parliament.

It's actually the longest serving government format anywhere in Europe or possibly the world. Sounds impressive for a little old place like the Isle of Man but actually when you consider that it basically means we haven't changed the way we do thing since the Vikings were here I don't know how proud we should be of that .

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's a weird one because we have our own 'parliament' of about 30 MHKs (members of the house of keys). Even I couldn't tell you whether we're part of the UK because it's such a grey area, but we don't vote in UK elections because we have our own parliament. Which is mental in itself because if we had one MP who represented us in the Commons we'd still be a relatively small constituency at 85000 people, yet we have 30 MHKs making up our own parliament.

It's actually the longest serving government format anywhere in Europe or possibly the world. Sounds impressive for a little old place like the Isle of Man but actually when you consider that it basically means we haven't changed the way we do thing since the Vikings were here I don't know how proud we should be of that .

Ah right. I don't think Corbyn would make a good pm but they can get of him. If Johnson gets in and takes us out the EU we can't change that. For a while anyway

Edited November 7, 2019 by Guest

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Fairy In Boots Corbyn isn't a marksist. He doesn't want to completely control the economy. Socialism isn't Marxism, isn't Communism. They are linked but they aren't the same. The fact that you call him one shows that you are so biased that most things you say should be dismissed out of hand. You say you care about the country. Between 90 and 98 percent of economists think we won't be better of out of the European Union. The absolute minimum is 90 percent. But you are probably fed up of listening to experts.

 

For the far right, anyone left of centre is a "Marxist" or a "socialist." Fear is a rallying cry for them and the fear of socialists and socialism has been built up for decades - it's an easy dogwhistle to blow to try to rally around them. They can't argue policy, at least not in good faith, so they stick to fear of the "other" - with Brexit the "other" is immigrants, with UK politics the "other" is socialists.

How anyone can say they'd back Boris's Brexit "for the good of the nation" after shitting all over May's deal... which many feel was less harmful to the British economy than Boris's deal - and that first deal was universally considered bad - it just requires a ton of mental gymnastics. But it's the same people that have been doing mental gymnastics since before the referendum, assuring themselves (and each other) that the rest of the world will abandon multilateral trade agreements if we do (spoiler alert: that's fantasy thinking) and that us leaving the EU doesn't significantly weaken our hand at the negotiating table for future trade deals (it does) - therefore they reassured themselves any short term hit to the economy was just going to be short term. They were "ripping the bandaid off."

It's hard to take any of the far-right Brexit brigade ideologically seriously either, because the goalposts keep moving. First we were promised there wouldn't be a hard Brexit, then we were told a hard Brexit is what the country voted for. And it shouldn't be surprising, since one of the "great minds" behind Brexit is Nigel Farage - a man who genuinely had power to push for the UK to have more power in the EU as a MEP, but instead used that role to collect money from the EU while not really representing UK interests at all and prefers using his time as an MEP to just be an irritating troll. And what's his fucking stance on Brexit? If it's shit for the UK, he's going to fuck off to America.

It's much easier to take the left-wing Brexit seriously - EU economic policies for member states and the austerity foisted on Greece are so much in line with many Thatcher era economic policies - it is a more ideologically consistent approach to Brexit. The counter point to that is that many of these legitimate concerns that ended up devastating communities and have led to Westminster funneling funding to London while neglecting most of the country, particularly the north, should have been taken more seriously then. And it's true - they should have. But it's been 3 decades of investing into this system. This isn't ripping a bandage off - it's going over a healed scar, saying you're tearing the bandage off... but first you cut yourself over the scar pretty badly and need to bandage yourself back up again. The easiest counterpoint to a left-wing Brexit argument is that... it's likely not going to be a left-wing aftermath for Brexit, because it'll likely come in led by Tories - it'll be to usher in a new Thatcherite wet dream. Because to Tories, the EU goes too far in business regulation, employment regulation, and ensuring that workers are adequately paid.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Dr. Gonzo

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Ah right. I don't think Corbyn would make a good pm but they can get of him. If Johnson gets in and takes us out the EU we can't change that. For a while anyway

Not only would we have to wait at least another generation to re-join the EU. The worst bit is that I can assure you we would not have all the unique perks we currently enjoy.

[Guest]

@Dr. Gonzo I try to understand the right and even the far right. But I really struggle to see  any good that comes from them . Racism climate change denial etc normally comes from the right wing, and from the far right you get holocaust denial, fascism etc. I really can't any good that comes from it. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Guest

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo I try to understand the right and even the far right. But I really struggle to see an any good that comes from them . Racism climate change denial etc normally comes from the right wing, and from the far right you get holocaust denial, fascism etc. I really can't any good that comes from it. 

Climate change denial stems from the fact that there are more businesses that stand to make a lot more money if we bury our heads in the sand about what we're doing to the planet than otherwise. Rich people have money, they're the ones who own newspapers/TV channels and pay for the ads on them - so they can peddle their bullshit.

If you're ever having a hard time understanding a right wing position, even if it's not extreme, just ask yourself "do a group of extremely wealthy people stand to be more wealthy if these policies are followed?" - the answer is almost universally: "yes." And that's really as simple as it'll get for many of their positions. I think racism is more of a far right feature, but as right wing parties around the world get more radicalised… I suppose it becomes more of the norm. I don't have anything good to say about the far right at all though. The people who are intelligent on the far right are monsters that are radicalising people and turning them into true believers. The rest are impressionable morons.

[Stan]

Tories another man down...

 

[Guest]

There are people on the right who aren't rich who are climate change deniers. ( I posted about this in the climate change thread if you wanna go into more detail.) What I don't understand now why it appears to be more of a right wing thing. I don't like to make judgements but the  climate  change deniers I have met have been racist and lazy thinkers. Being racist is easy. It's easy to blame other people. It's easy to make racial generalisations,it's also easy to be a climate change denier because then you don't have to take as much responsibilty. I do wonder if that is the link between climate change denial and the right wing.  Lazy thinking.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

There are people on the right who aren't rich who are climate change deniers. ( I posted about this in the climate change thread if you wanna go into more detail.) What I don't understand now why it appears to be more of a right wing thing. I don't like to make judgements but the  climate  change deniers I have met have been racist and lazy thinkers. Being racist is easy. It's easy to blame other people. It's easy to make racial generalisations,it's also easy to be a climate change denier because then you don't have to take as much responsibilty. I do wonder if that is the link between climate change denial and the right wing.  Lazy thinking.

He (Dr. Gonzo) explained it in the post you are responding him on mate. Those on the far right, the rich, the powerful, they own most of the influential media and they pump that rhetoric into impressionable minds. Hence why Brexiters are consistently called thick (the ones that stand to lose a hell of a lot more). With that I'm not saying they are indeed thick, maybe innocent and what they definitely are in my eye, is victims. Infact being called a volunteer victim is possibly the worst thing in the world in the way I've been brought up... It would be a hell of a lot more offensive to me than being called stupid.

[Guest]

@SirBalonim not sure if I believe that. Well not all of it anyway.  I'm left wing for the most part and I don't agree the media is biased towards the left. Some papers are but some are left wing as well. Most TV media is biased towards the left if anything.

[Stan]

10 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Most TV media is biased towards the left if anything.

The BBC definitely aren't any more. 

[RandoEFC+]

The BBC tend to err towards whoever's in power. Now that it's an election you can already notice a bit more neutrality in my opinion.

Television media in general do a very poor job of holding people to account. Sky News have actually teamed up with a firm called Fact Check for this election which is interesting as they have people in the back of the studio fact checking things said by politicians mid-interview and feeding it back to the interviewer. BBC's election coverage on the website are doing something similar called Reality Check each day. Unsurprisingly, major figures from both Conservative and Labour parties have been caught out already.

[SirBalon]

14 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@SirBalonim not sure if I believe that. Well not all of it anyway.  I'm left wing for the most part and I don't agree the media is biased towards the left. Some papers are but some are left wing as well. Most TV media is biased towards the left if anything.

Mate, sometimes I wonder with you...

Firstly look at the owners of the media and print for the most used news media and then think first.

These are the top selling newspapers in the UK... I wanted a list for England because Brexit is an English issue not one of the United Kingdom which is unfair. But on examining the list, it works anyway.

Tell me how many left wing papers are on that list and if you like, after this I can show you something pretty incredible on request.  Only if you want to have a look.

 

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Television media in general do a very poor job of holding people to account

Channel 4 are very good at this although they are also very pro-EU which will play on stupid people's minds and that's understandable. Facts are only digestible if it fits the rhetoric.

 

[Danny]

Tories will probably win again unfortunately 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Mate, sometimes I wonder with you...

Firstly look at the owners of the media and print for the most used news media and then think first.

These are the top selling newspapers in the UK... I wanted a list for England because Brexit is an English issue not one of the United Kingdom which is unfair. But on examining the list, it works anyway.

Tell me how many left wing papers are on that list and if you like, after this I can show you something pretty incredible on request.  Only if you want to have a look.

 

I'm pretty certain I didn't say the papers were left wing. But tv media appear to be left leaning at least