FIFA Women's World Cup 2023 - Australia/New Zealand

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

That is a whole different talking point and depending on what side of the wall you want to sit will have a different perspective.   

I guess, but I don’t see what is so bad about wanting people paid more and standing up for the rights of marginalised groups? I mean I also want to be paid more and not be discriminated against, sounds like a pretty easy thing to relate to.

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, Spike said:

I guess, but I don’t see what is so bad about wanting people paid more and standing up for the rights of marginalised groups? I mean I also want to be paid more and not be discriminated against, sounds like a pretty easy thing to relate to.

The pay issue is one that has been dealt with a lot,  the USWNT gets a much bigger cut of competition money than the men do,  where the narrative fails is that mens football is a better product and while the mens team have no hope in hell of winning a world cup,  they do play competition that is much better and the football is watched by most of the world.    I firmly believe a person should be paid their worth,  and the evidence suggest the womans team is paid very well relative to all other woman's teams. 

Her recent comments on allowing Trans woman into woman sports is more problematic,  by not discriminating against a minority who could easily make their own league,  the discrimination is felt by a majority of woman who are forced to compete against men without a voice.   That is not upholding rights it is just reverse discrimination against another class.    Martina Navratilova has recently called for the formation of Trans Athletes divisions,   and given Navratilova's history of standing up for woman's rights and rights of LGB's,   I would support that position.   It is now time to start Trans leagues where they can perform as trans females or trans males.

[Spike]

9 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The pay issue is one that has been dealt with a lot,  the USWNT gets a much bigger cut of competition money than the men do,  where the narrative fails is that mens football is a better product and while the mens team have no hope in hell of winning a world cup,  they do play competition that is much better and the football is watched by most of the world.    I firmly believe a person should be paid their worth,  and the evidence suggest the womans team is paid very well relative to all other woman's teams. 

Her recent comments on allowing Trans woman into woman sports is more problematic,  by not discriminating against a minority who could easily make their own league,  the discrimination is felt by a majority of woman who are forced to compete against men without a voice.   That is not upholding rights it is just reverse discrimination against another class.    Martina Navratilova has recently called for the formation of Trans Athletes divisions,   and given Navratilova's history of standing up for woman's rights and rights of LGB's,   I would support that position.   It is now time to start Trans leagues where they can perform as trans females or trans males.

Differentiating females and males between trans females and trans males is a fundamental misunderstanding of the core desire and ethos of what trans people want. They are an incredibly small portion of people and I fully disagree it would be ‘easy’ to create a league, it would be hard enough to fill out a single team. This would be no different than the negro league baseball of the early 20th century. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Spike

[Whiskey]

21 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The pay issue is one that has been dealt with a lot,  the USWNT gets a much bigger cut of competition money than the men do,  where the narrative fails is that mens football is a better product and while the mens team have no hope in hell of winning a world cup,  they do play competition that is much better and the football is watched by most of the world.    I firmly believe a person should be paid their worth,  and the evidence suggest the womans team is paid very well relative to all other woman's teams. 

Her recent comments on allowing Trans woman into woman sports is more problematic,  by not discriminating against a minority who could easily make their own league,  the discrimination is felt by a majority of woman who are forced to compete against men without a voice.   That is not upholding rights it is just reverse discrimination against another class.    Martina Navratilova has recently called for the formation of Trans Athletes divisions,   and given Navratilova's history of standing up for woman's rights and rights of LGB's,   I would support that position.   It is now time to start Trans leagues where they can perform as trans females or trans males.

+1.

[OrangeKhrush]

8 minutes ago, Spike said:

Differentiating between trans females and trans males is a fundamental misunderstanding of the core desire and ethos of what trans people want. That would be no different than the negro league baseball of the early 20th century. 

The negro league was a case of segregation based on racial grounds,  the issue with transgenderism in sports is that genetics is unchangeable and in most instances it is biological men competing against biological woman for athletic advantage,  this is why you don't see trans men competing in mens leagues.   Given that transgenderism is a new phenomenon the creation of a trans league will allow time to perform actual studies on performance rather than letting woman be the Guinea pigs. 

[Spike]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

The negro league was a case of segregation based on racial grounds,  the issue with transgenderism in sports is that genetics is unchangeable and in most instances it is biological men competing against biological woman for athletic advantage,  this is why you don't see trans men competing in mens leagues.   Given that transgenderism is a new phenomenon the creation of a trans league will allow time to perform actual studies on performance rather than letting woman be the Guinea pigs. 

Race is also genetic, genius.
Transgenderism is not new. 
Cristiano Ronaldo has a biological advantage over me, we are both men.

[Spike]

Anyone else eve notice how it is nearly always men speaking on behalf of women on who they can and can’t play sports with? Why do you even care? Let anyone that wants to play, play. It’s a game for fucks sake.

[Stan]

48 minutes ago, Spike said:

I guess, but I don’t see what is so bad about wanting people paid more and standing up for the rights of marginalised groups? I mean I also want to be paid more and not be discriminated against, sounds like a pretty easy thing to relate to.

This is what I don't get either. Why would you not want people to do better for themselves? Unless they're wanting those to stay down in the pecking order so they feel better about themselves... 

[OrangeKhrush]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

Anyone else eve notice how it is nearly always men speaking on behalf of women on who they can and can’t play sports with? Why do you even care? Let anyone that wants to play, play. It’s a game for fucks sake.

It is actually woman who are raising the issue,  Riley Gaines and other have come out against it.   Navratilova is woman last I checked,  the issue is woman are scared to speak out about it because they will be politically ostracized.

[Stan]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

It is actually woman who are raising the issue,  Riley Gaines and other have come out against it.   Navratilova is woman last I checked,  the issue is woman are scared to speak out about it because they will be politically ostracized.

And who's fault is that? The person speaking out, or the people reacting to it? 

[Spike]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

It is actually woman who are raising the issue,  Riley Gaines and other have come out against it.   Navratilova is woman last I checked,  the issue is woman are scared to speak out about it because they will be politically ostracized.

They will be politically ostracised? You mean like how Rapinoe is ostracised for coming out in support of it?

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

This is what I don't get either. Why would you not want people to do better for themselves? Unless they're wanting those to stay down in the pecking order so they feel better about themselves... 

I think people think success is a zero-sum game where success is always opposite to someone’s failure. 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

This is what I don't get either. Why would you not want people to do better for themselves? Unless they're wanting those to stay down in the pecking order so they feel better about themselves... 

A person starts a career at the bottom,  you then work your way up that is how it has been forever.   Woman sportsman have been getting more and more money as womans sports gets more focus,  however demanding Lebron James or Lionel messi pay is a bit excessive when womans sport is still not bringing in the revenue to support that.   
 

If they get paid more,  I am perfectly fine with that,  but you can't start demanding terms similar to people who do a lot more.    Last I saw Meghan Rapinoe was paid rather well,  certainly more than most male footballers in lower leagues of England will ever get. 

[Tommy]

6 minutes ago, Stan said:

This is what I don't get either. Why would you not want people to do better for themselves? Unless they're wanting those to stay down in the pecking order so they feel better about themselves... 

Especially worrying if they have wives/girlfriends or even daugthers themselves. Isn't that what you'd want for them? 

[Spike]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

A person starts a career at the bottom,  you then work your way up that is how it has been forever.   Woman sportsman have been getting more and more money as womans sports gets more focus,  however demanding Lebron James or Lionel messi pay is a bit excessive when womans sport is still not bringing in the revenue to support that.   
 

If they get paid more,  I am perfectly fine with that,  but you can't start demanding terms similar to people who do a lot more.    Last I saw Meghan Rapinoe was paid rather well,  certainly more than most male footballers in lower leagues of England will ever get. 

Actually most people start at the bottom and stay there till they die, and people are born at the top stay their till they die.

Women’s sport will never improve without investment, otherwise it will just tread water till it drowns. Same with anything else, life is nothing without collaboration.

[OrangeKhrush]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

They will be politically ostracised? You mean like how Rapinoe is ostracised for coming out in support of it?

Meghan Rapinoe is protected not ostracised,  Riley gaines was threatened and ostracised for coming out with what is really happening in NCAA womans sport.   

 

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Meghan Rapinoe is protected not ostracised,  Riley gaines was threatened and ostracised for coming out with what is really happening in NCAA womans sport.   

 

Rapinoe is routinely attacked by the media. Use google.

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Rapinoe is routinely attacked by the media. Use google.

It it's not a source he doesn't agree with he won't reference it. 

[Stan]

12 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Woman sportsman have been getting more and more money as womans sports gets more focus,  however demanding Lebron James or Lionel messi pay is a bit excessive when womans sport is still not bringing in the revenue to support that.   

Are they demanding that level of pay? 

[OrangeKhrush]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

Actually most people start at the bottom and stay there till they die, and people are born at the top stay their till they die.

Women’s sport will never improve without investment, otherwise it will just tread water till it drowns. Same with anything else, life is nothing without collaboration.

Lionel Messi was born into poverty,  he is now rich,   I think you are conflating the marxist narrative that class based society is the same for everyone but it fails to answer for why many work themselves into middle upper  middle class from the base.    I do think it is important to bring the people at the bottom up to the level of others,  but that is not done by any affirmative action or equity pushes,  it is done by finding the issues at the bottom and redressing those problems.   

Where it is a problem is that it comes down to the politically elected neglecting the needs of these people and using the money toward more upmarket areas,  this is certainly common in the US in Baltimore and certain areas in Michigan, Illinois, California, Washington State, Georgia, Carolina, Virginia where the righ areas take all the money that would be allocated to lower class areas,  then pander for the needs of these people during election time.

On the topic of the US team,  they are all paid more money than many league 1 and 2 or lower players will ever earn. 

[OrangeKhrush]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

Rapinoe is routinely attacked by the media. Use google.

not on ESPN, MSNBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo, BBC, Sky UK or any other major media house. 

[OrangeKhrush]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Are they demanding that level of pay? 

that woman basketball player that got held in Russia demanded the same pay as Lebron James. 

[Redcanuck]

Politics aside, and I admit I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum than Rapinoe but sport should be an escapism from the realities of every day life.  It shouldn't be used as a platform to give political, social or religious opinions, even if it's one's I am in agreement with.   Sports in general should follow F1 who announced a ban last December  on “the general making and display of political, religious and personal statements or comments” by participants without the permission of the governing body.

[Redcanuck]

10 minutes ago, Stan said:

Are they demanding that level of pay? 

I think they are, or close to it and they don't generate anywhere near the amount of revenue to justify it.

[Stan]

Just now, Redcanuck said:

I think they are, or close to it and they don't generate anywhere near the amount of revenue to justify it.

Fair enough. But as the game grows (and it has done significantly so in the past decade), I don't blame them to be wanting to be paid more.