(QF) England (p)1-1 Switzerland - Saturday 6th July, 2024

[Devil-Dick Willie]

2 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

He's always like that mate. If you look at his posts across a range of subjects he can't handle people disagreeing with him  on anything 

This coming from someone who never formulates real arguments. Ever. 

You make a point, I counter with my own, and you go 'well I don't feel the same' and pretend I didn't just offer a valid criticism. 

[Azeem]

8 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Oh no, the english are chad and I am soy! What an awful day.

You're a cunt not soy

[Rucksackfranzose]

5 hours ago, Stan said:

Might as well shut the forum down then if you're not allowed to give opinions. 

The argument put forward was that playing entertaining football and winning were equal. 

However, you can entertain and win, or not entertain and win. You can also entertain and lose. 

The ultimate point in football is too score more than the other side, right? No matter how it's done. I find it difficult to believe that if a smaller/lower-ranked nation played 'boring' and then won the tournament, that their fans would just sit there not being happy because they weren't 'entertained'. This is why the matter is more subjective than not. People like to be entertained, don't get me wrong. I do too when it comes to watching Leicester. But I also like points on the board and you don't only get that by playing entertaining football. 

Results should be priority. Added bonus if you do it in style. 

As for your comment about English players etc, you seem to totally ignore other mitigating factors like who they're managed by, the systems they play in, the players they play with etc. It's not just a flat rule of 'you can't comment because they didn't beat Slovenia. How basic do you want to get? 

Didn't say they can't be good because they couldn't win against Slovenia, said they can't be good if they had to play as defensively as they did against Slovenia for the sake of not losing, which is something completely different!

By the way, already mentioned it , the aim of football is to score more goals than the opposing team, not to concede less.

[Gunnersaurus]

6 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

This coming from someone who never formulates real arguments. Ever. 

You make a point, I counter with my own, and you go 'well I don't feel the same' and pretend I didn't just offer a valid criticism. 

That's because you don't alot of the time. You make a counter argument to something someone else said. Or you go an make a point which is completely subjective and pretend it's an objective fact. I've seen you get mad because someone likes house of dragon and you don't. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Here is a collective and plain chain of logic, that has no insults and isn't aimed at any other members. 

England, for the last 8 years have been outrageously lucky to reach the semis on such a consistent basis for the following reasons. 
You have lost 5 out of your 6 games against other top 12 opposition.

You have required significant luck against far worse teams than yourself such as Denmark, Slovakia, Switzerland and Colombia in knock out rounds. These aren't minnows (bar Slovakia who were projected as a bottom 4 team this comp) but they were all teams you'd expect to beat somewhere between well, and comfortably. 

The 1 tournament you played a real top 4 contender for that trophy, prior to the semis, was 2022 world cup, where you were bundled out by France in the quarters. Which is particularly interesting, because I would state, and I think many would agree, that is actually the best tournament you had under Southgate. You won your group comfortably, you beat Senegal 3-0 in the round of 16, and you pushed a strong French team hard. 

If you are playing football that deserves to reach the semi finals of big tournaments under Southgate's management, what is it that makes you think he'd have beaten Germany in 2010, Italy in 2012, or that you'd escape the group stage of 2014 against Uruguay and Italy? I don't think he'd have done any better at all. 

When you combine these elements, you get the result I have come to. You are riding a streak of ungodly tournament luck, that a team like France, Spain or even Belgium would have converted into a tournament victory. But despite being graced with kindness in terms of fixtures, and more recently even graced with miracle comebacks against worse teams in the final minutes of games, you have won nothing, and would have been far better off with a different manager, playing better football under the same circumstances. 

Thus, I don't think you're playing effective football at all. The ends and means are separate entities. England could get the same or similar results with just about any league 1 coach given the same fixtures. Possibly better in some cases. 

Edited July 8 by Devil-Dick Willie

[Gunnersaurus]

@Stan let's clear this up. Are you saying England are getting good results or are you saying you dont care that we are playing shit we're in the semi final and thats all you care about after never seeing England win anything?

[Gunnersaurus]

@Devil-Dick Willie as you said let's stop the name calling. I'm sorry I insulted you.  

Let's look at it. First of all southgate isn't actually that popular with England fans. Most don't like him. 

England have always been shit. We've won one knockout game against a major team in our history that's wasn't in England. That was a two legged match against Spain in 1968. We've never won a one on one knock-out against a major team over one game. 

Under Southgate we have had our two biggest world cup victories. And we have played shit teams before and struggled. We've had our two biggest ever quarter final victories. We knocked out germany at home but we did knock them out. 

I'm gonna go back to 2008.  I think under southgate we would have qualified in 2008. I think in 2010 we would have won our group avoided Germany and perhaps beaten Uruguay but definitely lost to Netherlands. I think in 2012 we would have had the same results. 2014 I'm not to sure. It was in South America I don't know I'm not to sure on that one. 2016 I don't think we would of lost to Iceland. I think we would of topped the group and lost to Belgium or Portugal. So yes I do think we would of done better under him. I don't think he's a great manager but I think he's one of the better England managers. Although I do think he has had a lot of luck I think he has been good at creating a good team bond.  When you look at it I think he is only really getting the bare minimum. But England have struggled to even do that at times 

Edited July 8 by Gunnersaurus

[Dr. Gonzo]

I like how Southgate’s most impressive knockout win is sort of ignored because it implies that the side knocked out isn’t a serious football nation.

[Dr. Gonzo]

38 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

This coming from someone who never formulates real arguments. Ever. 

You make a point, I counter with my own, and you go 'well I don't feel the same' and pretend I didn't just offer a valid criticism. 

Are you offering valid criticism or are you just pulling a Brian with swear words?

[Devil-Dick Willie]

3 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

@Devil-Dick Willie as you said let's stop the name calling. I'm sorry I insulted you.  

Let's look at it. First of all southgate isn't actually that popular with England fans. Most don't like him. 

England have always been shit. We've won one knockout game against a major team in our history that's wasn't in England. That was a two legged match against Spain in 1968. We've never won a one on one knock-out against a major team over one game. 

Under Southgate we have had our two biggest world cup victories. And we have played shit teams before and struggled. We've had our two biggest ever quarter final victories. We knocked out germany at home but we did knock them out. 

I'm gonna go back to 2008.  I think under southgate we would have qualified in 2008. I think in 2010 we would have won our group avoided Germany and perhaps beaten Uruguay but definitely lost to Netherlands. I think in 2012 we would have had the same results. 2014 I'm not to sure. It was in South America I don't know I'm not to sure on that one. 2016 I don't think we would of lost to Iceland. I think we would of topped the group and lost to Belgium or Portugal. So yes I do think we would of done better under him. I don't think he's a great manager but I think he's one of the better England managers. Although I do think he has had a lot of luck I think he has been good at creating a good team bond.  When you look at it I think he is only really getting the bare minimum. But England have struggled to even do that at times 

Why why and why? You only didn't suffer the exact same fate (twice) you suffered against Iceland this very tournament due to a moment of brilliance that didn't eventuate against Iceland. Same goes for last Euro against Denmark. I don't think England have improved at all since 2016, and that was their lowest moment. Getting evicted from the 2014 world cup in the group stage without a win, then losing in the first knock out to Iceland by a goal. That is genuinely the level I think you're playing at now, except with a MUCH better team in many positions. I think the miraculous run of fixtures have papered over the cracks wildly.

You have a better team now than then, but have embarrassed yourselves literally every game this tournament, rode your miraculous comeback goals to suspect victories, and are in another Semi final (yay) but as @The Palace Fan said, it doesn't feel quite the same to many, and I think that's because as I said even before @The Palace Fan mentioned it, You know how this ends this time. The hope that 'oh my god we have played awfully but just need 2 results against decent teams and we're winners' isn't as exciting a thought as it was 6 and 4 years ago, because you have no reason to believe that it will happen.

[Azeem]

Speaking of valid criticism. DDW's adopted country's performance on occasions they were not favorites in over the years so Brazil France 2014 etc doesn't count

Spain 2008 L

Spain 2010 L

Spain 2022 D

Spain 2024 L

Italy 2006 L

Italy 2012 L

Italy 2016 penalties (arguably they were favorites)

France 2016 L

France 2021 D

Argentina 2006 penalties

Argentina 2010 W

Argentina 2014 W

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I like how Southgate’s most impressive knockout win is sort of ignored because it implies that the side knocked out isn’t a serious football nation.

Which is that? He has literally 0 impressive knock out wins IMO. Sweden and Senegal were what I would call par, and I keep explicitly stating that the win over Germany is his 1 silver lining. Obviously Germany were dogshit, and in the middle of 2 world cups where they were evicted at the group stage, but until this post I didn't even mention that, I just gave him the green light on it in multiple posts so don't you dare say I've 'kind of excluded it' when in 2 posts I stated it specifically. 

[Stan]

34 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

@Stan let's clear this up. Are you saying England are getting good results or are you saying you dont care that we are playing shit we're in the semi final and thats all you care about after never seeing England win anything?

Right now I don't care we're playing shit as we're still ultimately getting through. 

I wouldn't say it's all I care about in general. But we're doing just enough. Do I expect more with the players we have? Certainly. 

Am I 'happy' with how we're playing? Not really. 

Am I content that we're still in the tournament. Yep. 

To me that's pretty clear. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 minute ago, Beelzebub said:

Speaking of valid criticism. DDW's adopted country's performance on occasions they were not favorites in over the years so Brazil France 2014 etc doesn't count

Spain 2008 L

Spain 2010 L

Spain 2022 D

Spain 2024 L

Italy 2006 L

Italy 2012 L

Italy 2016 penalties (arguably they were favorites)

France 2016 L

France 2021 D

Argentina 2006 penalties

Argentina 2010 W

Argentina 2014 W

 

It's funny for a couple of reasons. 

1. My biological father is German. Born in Germany. Spoke German. Adopt a brain.

2. I'd say Germany were favorites in a LOT of those games. But that's the nature of being a top 5 side, and one of the 3 most successful sides in football history. Almost every loss you're ever going to have is going to be against a team who is worse or at best, considered roughly as good. You have offered a very false equivalence. Also you'll notice Italy there a million times. Well known fact they're Germanys kryptonite. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Which is that? He has literally 0 impressive knock out wins IMO. Sweden and Senegal were what I would call par, and I keep explicitly stating that the win over Germany is his 1 silver lining. Obviously Germany were dogshit, and in the middle of 2 world cups where they were evicted at the group stage, but until this post I didn't even mention that, I just gave him the green light on it in multiple posts so don't you dare say I've 'kind of excluded it' when in 2 posts I stated it specifically. 

Mate it’s international football, barely anyone is any decent quality, third tier club sides can routinely play better football than most international sides, and we’re perennial underperformers.

Barely anyone in the world except the window lickers in the FA rates Southgate as a football manager.

You can only beat what’s in front of you, so it’s not really our fault Southgate has us limping against “shite teams” like Sweden, Senegal, Germany, Denmark, and Colombia. I guess those teams should feel especially bad they lost to Southgate. Maybe those countries should fold their football associations and just pack it all up forever.

But telling fans of a side in a semi-final of a tournament they’ve never won they’ve got no reason to be excited is stupid.

We know Southgate is shit, we don’t care at this point. It’s not like underserved winners have never won a cup in football before. This shit’s not a meritocracy, otherwise just give it to Spain and stop wasting time with the other matches.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

6 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

Speaking of valid criticism. DDW's adopted country's performance on occasions they were not favorites in over the years so Brazil France 2014 etc doesn't count

Spain 2008 L

Spain 2010 L

Spain 2022 D

Spain 2024 L

Italy 2006 L

Italy 2012 L

Italy 2016 penalties (arguably they were favorites)

France 2016 L

France 2021 D

Argentina 2006 penalties

Argentina 2010 W

Argentina 2014 W

 

I would give Germany their group games against Portugal and Netherlands, both Ws, in 2012 considering half the shite you've offered here. 

Here is a genuine list of games where I watched live, thinking 'if both teams play to potential Germany will lose, or I don't know it's too close to call'. Not based on your random assessment, based on how I felt at the time

Argentina 2006. Penalties W
Italy 2006. L
Spain 2008. L
Spain 2010. L
Netherlands 2012. W
Italy 2012. L
Brazil 2014 W
Argentina 2014 W
Italy 2016 W
France 2016 L
England 2020 L. 

Now whether we use your list or mine, it's much much better than 5 losses for every win now isn't it? 
 

[Azeem]

5 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

It's funny for a couple of reasons. 

1. My biological father is German. Born in Germany. Spoke German. Adopt a brain.

2. I'd say Germany were favorites in a LOT of those games. But that's the nature of being a top 5 side, and one of the 3 most successful sides in football history. Almost every loss you're ever going to have is going to be against a team who is worse or at best, considered roughly as good. You have offered a very false equivalence. Also you'll notice Italy there a million times. Well known fact they're Germanys kryptonite. 

1. Adopted also means the team you support you single cell amoeba brain

2. Which is the whole point. When it comes to teams that are equally good Germany don't really have that great of a record lately and should've won more over the years

[Azeem]

3 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I would give Germany their group games against Portugal and Netherlands, both Ws, in 2012 considering half the shite you've offered here. 
 

Netherlands lost all three games at that Euros and were off color like Germany was in 2021 that you keep bringing all the time whenever England's win against them is brought up. And Portugal have only beaten Germany once in 2000 despite playing them so often, Germany is their kryptonite so let's just forget them

Penalties are officially counted as draws fyi win on penalties is never satisfying for any side. 

[Gunnersaurus]

@Devil-Dick Willie  I've explained it quite clearly mate. I really cant be bothered to have long repetitive discussions on it like I used to. If I've lost the debate I don't really care. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

3 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

Speaking of valid criticism. DDW's adopted country's performance on occasions they were not favorites in over the years so Brazil France 2014 etc doesn't count

Spain 2008 L

Spain 2010 L

Spain 2022 D

Spain 2024 L

Italy 2006 L

Italy 2012 L

Italy 2016 penalties (arguably they were favorites)

France 2016 L

France 2021 D

Argentina 2006 penalties

Argentina 2010 W

Argentina 2014 W

 

Nice since you failed to mention @Devil-Dick Willie's adopted team won 7-1 in a WC semi against Brazil in Brazil, where almost all forum members said this would be Brazil's time on home soil, which shows they scored more goals against a football giant in 1 semi final on opponent's soil, than England scored in 5 matches against small to medium sized football nations combined during this tournament. Also wasn't it you who said Argentina would win the WC 14 final because no European team could ever win in SA? but hey, why would you mind your yesterday's talk?

Edited July 8 by Rucksackfranzose

[Azeem]

7 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

 

Argentina 2006. Penalties W
Italy 2006. L
Spain 2008. L
Spain 2010. L
Netherlands 2012. W
Italy 2012. L
Brazil 2014 W
Argentina 2014 W
Italy 2016 Penalties W
France 2016 L
England 2020 L. 
 

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Mate it’s international football, barely anyone is any decent quality, third tier club sides can routinely play better football than most international sides, and we’re perennial underperformers.

Barely anyone in the world except the window lickers in the FA rates Southgate as a football manager.

You can only beat what’s in front of you, so it’s not really our fault Southgate has us limping against “shite teams” like Sweden, Senegal, Germany, Denmark, and Colombia. I guess those teams should feel especially bad they lost to Southgate. Maybe those countries should fold their football associations and just pack it all up forever.

But telling fans of a side in a semi-final of a tournament they’ve never won they’ve got no reason to be excited is stupid.

We know Southgate is shit, we don’t care at this point. It’s not like underserved winners have never won a cup in football before. This shit’s not a meritocracy, otherwise just give it to Spain and stop wasting time with the other matches.

Dropped your little gripe eh? Funny what happens when I drop the insults, people can't hide behind 'don't be a cunt' and have to ignore the facts being sent their way. Okay, so I suppose you silently accept I haven't at any point hidden the win against Germany.

Okay your particular augment in summary is 'barely anyone is decent quality, we can't control who we face, we should be happy to still be in this tournament despite everything, because the results in future games aren't foregone conclusions'. Pretty fair summary I'd say.

1. Barely anyone is decent. 
True. Absolutely true. But you were bookies favorites, both for winners and top scorers. While I don't think that's fair, I know you accept that you're a much better team in theory than you have offered so far. So don't hid behind 'well we're all a bit shit in international football'. If it was truly a pot luck teams like England and Germany and Spain wouldn't qualify top of their qualification groups playing against teams like Sweden, Slovakia and Switzerland every 2 years.  

2. We can't control who we play. 
Never said you could of course, I just want some acknowledgement that a 3/4 tournament run like this is unprecedented. It literally couldn't have happened in the past, because the old Euro format had less teams, and went straight to a top 8 where the WORST possible team left would have been a Switzerland or Turkey. 

3. The fact that there is less hype and excitement is palpable. I don't expect you to be personally less excited to be in the tournament still no. All you can do at this stage is go 'fuck we suck, fuck we've been lucky, I hope tomorrow is a better day' as an optimist, or as a pessimist go 'fuck we suck, and unless god keeps offering us favors we're goners, but I have no personal preference for which each and every man choses and haven't alluded as such.  

[Azeem]

3 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Nice since you failed to mention @Devil-Dick Willie's adopted team won 7-1 in a WC semi against Brazil in Brazil, where almost all forum members said this would be Brazil's time on home soil, which shows they scored more goals against a football giant in 1 match, than England scored in 5 matches against small to medium sized football nations put together during this tournament. Also wasn't it you who said Argentina would win the WC 14 final because no European team could ever in SA? but hhey, why would you mind your yesterday's talk?

I joined the forum in December 2014 the final was played in July

[Gunnersaurus]

15 minutes ago, Stan said:

Right now I don't care we're playing shit as we're still ultimately getting through. 

I wouldn't say it's all I care about in general. But we're doing just enough. Do I expect more with the players we have? Certainly. 

Am I 'happy' with how we're playing? Not really. 

Am I content that we're still in the tournament. Yep. 

To me that's pretty clear. 

I think we could have said that about most england squads to be fair. Has there ever been a time we've been happy with the way england are playing and thought we were getting the best out of the players? Not in the 26 years I've been watching England.  When we won on penalties against Switzerland I still went crazy for half an hour and hugged every random stranger. I didn't think well I'm not gonna celebrate because we should have won in full time 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

7 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

1. Adopted also means the team you support you single cell amoeba brain

2. Which is the whole point. When it comes to teams that are equally good Germany don't really have that great of a record lately and should've won more over the years

Even in your crap list the ratio is much much better than 4 losses, 1 penalties loss, 1 win. (16% wins)
My list has us 11 games, 6 losses, 2 penalty wins, 4 wins.(36% wins)

It doesn't take a mathematician to tell you one of those is roughly twice as good as the other.
That also doesn't acknowledge other mitigating factors that improve the list, such as that Germany have a ridiculous record in shoot outs and thus a draw AET is a much better result for them than for England who have only just started winning shootouts ever. I'll leave jammy shit like that out.