The Jorginho / Kante Debate

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

Agreed, except I made it very clear that video is to oppose the ridiculous notion that all he does is sideways pass. 

 

Once that gets into the general public's mind, good luck getting them to change their minds. 

[Inverted]

The position that Jorginho plays in is arguably the hardest position to play forward in. If he drops to be between the centre backs, then the options in front of him will be marked and he'll have to thread a risky ball into midfield. 

If he gets the ball ahead of the centre backs, he'll normally have to turn and try to play forward in a position where he himself is marked.

If he messes up in either instance then then it's an instant counter-attack and very likely a goal. 

Even if you watch Pirlo, most passes are sideways down the wings or very short forward passes.

[Cicero]

Been outstanding as of late. A midfield three of Ruben, Jorginho, and Kante surely the future. 

 

[True Blue]

In his last few games, excellent and helping out the defense. If our bastards could finish a single chance he creates he would have a dozen assists. I agree with Cicero a midfield of Ruben, Kante and Jorginho is excellent. I would like to keep Ross as rotation plus a new midfielder or Mount if possible.

[carefreeluke]

 

 

1

On 21/04/2019 at 13:58, carefreeluke said:

Jorginho despite being inconsistent and he was very poor in the middle part of the season for example, perhaps doesn't get the credit he deserves. His form dipped but it dipped with the rest of the team and he gets harshly singled out when a lot of the other players' performances lowered as well. When we've played well this season, I'm thinking of one off performances, Jorginho has normally been one of the better performers in those games and perhaps doesn't get enough credit for some of the good stuff he's done this season. Don't get me wrong, he has deserved criticism this season and I'm not saying he's immune from that but he's also done a lot of good things as well. In our good moments this season, he's gone under the radar a bit and for that reason, I'd say he gets the unsung hero tag. One of those players that could well be more appreciated by the fanbase in the future. It took a while for Drogba to win over the Chelsea fans but then again he was more suited to the football in this league. Anyway, I still have faith in Jorginho.

If he didn't have this association with Sarri, he'd be more appreciated. Our fanbase has booed him in part because of that association as a lot of the fanbase (at least most of the match going one) are against Sarri. Criticism has been due this season at times with Jorginho but to boo him when he's either came off or on this season is a very poor showing from some of our fans. Would never do that with any player.

Secondly, I feel our fanbase have this approach of viewing football where a team needs to have a destroyer sitting in front of the defence and they look at things exclusively that way. The Chelsea fans have got used to having the likes of Makélélé, Kanté and Mikel sitting in front, Jorginho is the opposite. Hence as soon as we started having defensive problems, they immediately looked at that Jorginho.

[Cicero]

It's the same set of fans that booed Cech when he replaced Cuducini and groaned when Lampard stole a goal from Torres. They also chanted 'you're fucking shit' when Bakayoko got sent off last season. 

 

[Dan+]

I've not read through this thread or seen what people have said so but my thinking on this is just that the whole debate is a bit too simplistic, that they are totally different players and this whole idea of dropping Kante to holding midfielder is a total waste of both players.

I've always seen Kante as a box to box midfielder with extraordinary tackling, stamina and anticipation. This doesn't make him a holding midfielder. He can play there, but is wasted there. He was pivotal for us in winning the ball high up the pitch as well. He's a lot more attacking than most people give him credit for.

If you want to play a possession game then Jorginho behind him is a better solution, surely, so I don't think Sarri was wrong to do what he's done.

[carefreeluke]

 

 

1

9 minutes ago, Dan said:

I've not read through this thread or seen what people have said so but my thinking on this is just that the whole debate is a bit too simplistic, that they are totally different players and this whole idea of dropping Kante to holding midfielder is a total waste of both players.

I've always seen Kante as a box to box midfielder with extraordinary tackling, stamina and anticipation. This doesn't make him a holding midfielder. He can play there, but is wasted there. He was pivotal for us in winning the ball high up the pitch as well. He's a lot more attacking than most people give him credit for.

If you want to play a possession game then Jorginho behind him is a better solution, surely, so I don't think Sarri was wrong to do what he's done.

It's one of the biggest myths in football mate. I can't talk much about his time at Boulogne and Caen but he's never really been solely a defensive midfielder, the only time I'm aware of where he purely played as a defensive midfielder (like Makélélé used to do) is for France at international level. At Chelsea, he has never played a purely defensive position in midfield, it's always been in a two where he's had a license to get forward as well. When I've watched him play for France where he's played a more restrictive defensive role, it has always struck me as a little limiting on his abilities, reminds me of a bird in a cage sort of thing. I saw an awful lot of Leicester in their title-winning season and I saw a lot of Kanté being one of the furthest forward for Leicester at times and I remember pundits bigging up his athleticism to get up and down the pitch on counters, the same pundits now who have been saying all season that he should be moved back to defensive midfield. 

Kanté's best position has always been in a midfield two, either a two that operates a bit deeper (like under Conte) or one similar to Leicester's, the two roles he played in those two particular teams were very similar and acted as the axis for those respective title wins. It's never been as a pure defensive midfielder like he often gets pigeonholed as.

A quote from his former manager at Caen:

Quote

 "He's a relayeur, a No.8," the Caen boss told ESPN FC. "What he showed as a No. 6 for France [at Euro 2016] was also very good, but I prefer him a little further up the pitch because he can press, win back the ball, and going forward, he can break opponents down and be a threat.

 

[Dan+]

3 hours ago, José said:

Very debatable. Yeah he has the stamina but he is not very effective offensively imo

I don't think it's so much that he's creative, just more than he can transition you into attacks in an instant. He's not purely defensive.

[Dan+]

2 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

It's one of the biggest myths in football mate. I can't talk much about his time at Boulogne and Caen but he's never really been solely a defensive midfielder, the only time I'm aware of where he purely played as a defensive midfielder (like Makélélé used to do) is for France at international level. At Chelsea, he has never played a purely defensive position in midfield, it's always been in a two where he's had a license to get forward as well. When I've watched him play for France where he's played a more restrictive defensive role, it has always struck me as a little limiting on his abilities, reminds me of a bird in a cage sort of thing. I saw an awful lot of Leicester in their title-winning season and I saw a lot of Kanté being one of the furthest forward for Leicester at times and I remember pundits bigging up his athleticism to get up and down the pitch on counters, the same pundits now who have been saying all season that he should be moved back to defensive midfield. 

Kanté's best position has always been in a midfield two, either a two that operates a bit deeper (like under Conte) or one similar to Leicester's, the two roles he played in those two particular teams were very similar and acted as the axis for those respective title wins. It's never been as a pure defensive midfielder like he often gets pigeonholed as.

A quote from his former manager at Caen

This is what I've been getting at all along. He's completely wasted there. I remember watching France in Euro 2016 seeing him at holding midfield thinking they're totally wasting the bloke limiting him to simply mopping up - which he does very well but he's got the best stamina of anyone I can remember, he get all over the pitch, every game, all season. He's a physical freak.

It was 4-4-2 for us. A flat back four, inverted wingers (Mahrez pushed up a lot further) with Kante and Drinkwater in the middle. Kante basically patched up the weaknesses of everybody.

[carefreeluke]

I don't think his current role in Sarri's team gets the best out of him but moving him to play as a pure holding midfielder isn't going to either as a lot of people seem to be suggesting.