Most Talented Football Nations

[Dr. Gonzo]

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Although Iran are officially in that football confederation, people don't count them from that region (Asia) because they think extreme east.

So you're saying that the obvious reason for people thinking about Japan and Korea is because they're more prominent in participating and doing OK in World Cups?  That in itself is a valid reason I would say.

Anyway... I agree with you that Iran (I have also added Iraq who have Infact had more talented teams in the past than Iran) are very passionate football followers... Infact the whole of the a Middle East are.  But nobody can deny that both Japan and the Republic of Korea have come a long way and you only have to look where their top players are plying their trade. We're not seeing the same thing occurring at the top levels with Iran.

It's infinitely harder for Iranians to get visas. Also clubs are infinitely less likely to do business with an Iranian club - likely would be violating US sanctions and subject them to penalties if they have any business in the US (which any club that has games on an American network would, or any American fans they try to sell their merch to).

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Azeem said:

Yep... Actually it's a long period of time with you but today you've been drinking someone else's tea.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Really @Blue? You count Korea/Japan and Colombia, when speaking all time? But discount Italy, Argentina and Germany? Don´t you think titles are a good indicator for talent?

Argentina has never been the kings of talent. They have always been balanced force. Aside from Maradona, nobody from Argentina has had the talent of Ronaldinho for example, who could arguably be seen as the most "talented" player in history. Yet, he's not better than Messi who isn't far off and is obviously more complete. In other words, they have a bit of everything at a very high standard, but don't top the list in any.

Italy has never been super talented. Maybe it's just my young self saying that because I am only 20 and haven't seen the likes of Baggio or Cannavaro. I've always seen them as tactics merchants they used to win titles, where as Brazil their "talent" got them through. The most talented Italian I have seen in my life is Insigne and Pirlo.

Germany I'm in the same boat. I haven't seen their old games like I have with Argentina but in recent days I haven't seen anyone even near the talent of Ronaldinho or Maradona. They just seem very solid and quality players who are well geled and amongst some of the best in the world, but "talent" is not what they excel at in my eyes. That is smarts.

Don't get me wrong, they are all talented but not on the level of Brazil or Colombia.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

If it's all time (which makes it even more difficult), then Argentina come way before Japan and Korea.  Infact it can't be done apart from the obvious one of Brazil.  You have to go on timelines mate because a historical one is impossible and most people here won't know where to go with that.

Japan and Korea can't be up there historically.  It's impossible!  Although in saying that, Iran comes nowhere in that note.

No mate, you were right. It is present day, because if it actually is all time I would be very wrong. I didn't go through the thought process very well 

[Cicero]

Did you just say Messi isn't talented? 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's infinitely harder for Iranians to get visas. Also clubs are infinitely less likely to do business with an Iranian club - likely would be violating US sanctions and subject them to penalties if they have any business in the US (which any club that has games on an American network would, or any American fans they try to sell their merch to).

Indeed... There are political issues revolving much of football in the Middle East.  As you can see from my first post, I'm not disputing the passion in the area as I said straight away that there's no lack of that.  I'm arguing the obvious point with Azeem on what he (once again) is trying to push forward.

He cowardly bypassed the question of "obvious reasons for choosing Japan and Korea" by brining up some nonsense.

What I don't want football to be on this forum is balanced on anything other than the sport.  That means an agenda related to race or religion can stay at home.  Football is a uniform sport that doesn't have any of its rules adapted by either race or religion.

[Guest]

Just now, Cicero said:

Did you just say Messi isn't talented? 

No. I said he isn't as talented as Ronaldinho. That doesn't mean I think Ronaldinho is better than Messi, just that the former is more talented.

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

No. I said he isn't as talented as Ronaldinho. That doesn't mean I think Ronaldinho is better than Messi, just that the former is more talented.

Right. So let's expand on that. What attributes or what does Ronaldinho have in his locker that surpasses Messi? Maybe we should first find common ground, what is your definition of talented? 

Because call me crazy, I typically think of a player who possesses more in his locker is ultimately the better footballer. 

[Azeem]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Indeed... There are political issues revolving much of football in the Middle East.  As you can see from my first post, I'm not disputing the passion in the area as I said straight away that there's no lack of that.  I'm arguing the obvious point with Azeem on what he (once again) is trying to push forward.

He cowardly bypassed the question of "obvious reasons for choosing Japan and Korea" by brining up some nonsense.

What I don't want football to be on this forum is balanced on anything other than the sport.  That means an agenda related to race or religion can stay at home.  Football is a uniform sport that doesn't have any of its rules adapted by either race or religion.

I meant that for the reasons i explained after richer countries, professional setups etc was going to type the sanctions part but @Dr. Gonzo beat me to it. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

Right. So let's expand on that. What attributes or what does Ronaldinho have in his locker that surpasses Messi? Maybe we should first find common ground, what is your definition of talented? 

Because call me crazy, I typically think of a player who possesses more in his locker is ultimately the better footballer. 

For me, talent is technique and what you can do with the ball. That doesn't automatically make you a good footballer though. In fact, Peru is a talent producing machine but they are all so mentally and physically weak that none make it to the highest level. 

Messi definitely has more in his locker than Ronaldinho, but he's not as talented. Ronaldinho had better dribbling and could do literally anything he wanted with the ball. He was almost a freestyler. For me, there is no one more talented than him and Maradona. Backheels in the air and technique all over, aerial and grounded. That for me is talent, but again that doesn't always make you a good footballer.

That's not to say Messi isn't one of the most talented players ever, he is. I just don't think he's as much of a "freestyler" and technique merchant as Maradona or Ronaldinho.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Did you just say Messi isn't talented? 

Argentina has consistently produced much higher talent than Japan and Korea for... basically as long as I've been alive. When I think of South American football, the two nations I think of the most are Brazil and Argentina.

If I were to do my own top 5:

1.) Brazil

2.) Germany

3.) Italy

4.) Argentina

5.) Holland

Generally speaking, those countries generally have very talented international sides. Holland hasn't been as great lately, but I think if you consider history and their generally small population they're pretty consistent with the talent they produce. Same with Italy, as Italy didn't qualify for the most recent World Cup either, but generally speaking you'd expect Italy to do well in an international tournament because they've produced successful teams in the past.

Feels weird leaving France off there though.

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, Blue said:

Aside from Maradona, nobody from Argentina has had the talent of Ronaldinho for example, who could arguably be seen as the most "talented" player in history. Yet, he's not better than Messi who isn't far off and is obviously more complete. In other words, they have a bit of everything at a very high standard, but don't top the list in any.

I'd also like to know the answers to @Cicero's question.

Ronaldinho was one of my favourite footballers to watch when growing up. He was everything you should want in an attacking footballer.

But Messi is pretty much the best of this generation since he's come on the scene. Better than Ronaldinho and he (Messi) has the trophies and accolades to back it up.

[Guest]

For me, Messi has better vision, a better final ball and has similar physique. He's also much more serious than Ronaldinho is, these things make him a fundamentally better footballer in my opinion, but not more "talented".

[Azeem]

@SirBalon I say that for a lot other teams in other sports as well, Sri Lanka has been greater than England in Cricket both in talent and passion over the years but still not given due credit for obvious reasons. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

If Ronaldinho's peak had lasted longer, I think he'd be considered the best player ever. But the other usual contenders for best player ever, Messi included, have the fact that they've performed at the top level for longer... and I think that (obviously) makes them easier contenders for it.

[SirBalon]

18 minutes ago, Blue said:

Argentina has never been the kings of talent. They have always been balanced force. Aside from Maradona, nobody from Argentina has had the talent

I'm taking that as a joke!

And anyway... Who said they're the Kings?  I said they're up there and in the top five of all time without a doubt!

1. LIONEL MESSI
2. DIEGO MARADONA
3. ALFREDO DI STÉFANO
4. MARIO KEMPES
5. GABRIEL BATISTUTA
6. DANIEL PASSARELLA
7. JUAN ROMÁN RIQUELME
8. ÁNGEL AMADÉO LABRUNA
9. JAVIER ZANETTI
10. JOSÉ MANUEL MORENO
11. JAVIER MASCHERANO
12. GONZALO HIGUAÍN
13. HERNÁN CRESPO
14. ARIEL ORTEGA
15. JORGE VALDANO
16. LUIS ARTIME
17. PABLO AIMAR
18. MARTÍN PALERMO
19. ROBERTO AYALA
20. HUMBERTO MASCHIO
21. HERMINIO MASANTONIO
22. MIGUEL BRINDISI
23. GABRIEL MILITO
24. ROBERTO SENSINI
25. HÉCTOR RIAL
26. JOSÉ SANFILIPPO
27. RICARDO ENRIQUE BOCHINI
28. DIEGO PABLO SIMEONE

Honestly... I could go on!  That is the craziest football statement you have ever made.

[Guest]

I think @Azeem's point is that some nations are typically less respected than others for being less reputable. It's like that whole Costa Rica and Keylor Navas comment I made a while back. In sport, particularly global ones like football, respect needs to be earned. Sometimes the richer countries do get more attention because they are more socially responsible within the world. For example, the USA is a well known country and I think everyone knows they aren't good at football, yet when they missed the World Cup it was a bigger shock than the Netherlands and Chile. If it was Costa Rica, nobody would have cared. As for Brazil, they have earned a reputation with 5 world cups, so they are a big exception. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I'm taking that as a joke!

And anyway... Who said they're the Kings?  I said they're up there and in the top five of all time without a doubt!

1. LIONEL MESSI
2. DIEGO MARADONA
3. ALFREDO DI STÉFANO
4. MARIO KEMPES
5. GABRIEL BATISTUTA
6. DANIEL PASSARELLA
7. JUAN ROMÁN RIQUELME
8. ÁNGEL AMADÉO LABRUNA
9. JAVIER ZANETTI
10. JOSÉ MANUEL MORENO
11. JAVIER MASCHERANO
12. GONZALO HIGUAÍN
13. HERNÁN CRESPO
14. ARIEL ORTEGA
15. JORGE VALDANO
16. LUIS ARTIME
17. PABLO AIMAR
18. MARTÍN PALERMO
19. ROBERTO AYALA
20. HUMBERTO MASCHIO
21. HERMINIO MASANTONIO
22. MIGUEL BRINDISI
23. GABRIEL MILITO
24. ROBERTO SENSINI
25. HÉCTOR RIAL
26. JOSÉ SANFILIPPO
27. RICARDO ENRIQUE BOCHINI
28. DIEGO PABLO SIMEONE

Honestly... I could go on!  That is the craziest football statement you have ever made.

All great players but none of them except for the top 3 are immensely "talented". They were good at everything. I wouldn't say Neymar is better than a lot of the top 8, but more talented than them (except Maradona and Di Stefano). Neymar's problem is exactly what Argentina have though. Balance.

And don't take that as a "they aren't talented" way. They absolutely are. I just don't think they are the most talented.

[Cicero]

9 minutes ago, Blue said:

For me, talent is technique and what you can do with the ball. That doesn't automatically make you a good footballer though.

Messi definitely has more in his locker than Ronaldinho, but he's not as talented. Ronaldinho had better dribbling and could do literally anything he wanted with the ball. He was almost a freestyler. For me, there is no one more talented than him and Maradona. Backheels in the air and technique all over, aerial and grounded. That for me is talent, but again that doesn't always make you a good footballer.

That's not to say Messi isn't one of the most talented players ever, he is. I just don't think he's as much of a "freestyler" and technique merchant as Maradona or Ronaldinho.

You see, I disagree entirely. 

You are essentially saying freestylers, like Touzani and F2, are more talented than Lionel Messi because they perform more skills and do circus level juggling. That is just having more flair. 

Being more talented means you have more to your game compared to others. Ronaldinho, even at his best, only had two things over prime Messi. Pace and flair.  

Also, no offence, I find your definition of 'technique' absurd. Watching Messi play is one of the joys of football. Everything about him is technique given the sheer fact everything looks so natural to him. 

Your definition of talent and technique are seriously flawed mate. 

 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

I think @Azeem's point is that some nations are typically less respected than others for being less reputable. It's like that whole Costa Rica and Keylor Navas comment I made a while back. In sport, particularly global ones like football, respect needs to be earned. Sometimes the richer countries do get more attention because they are more socially responsible within the world. For example, the USA is a well known country and I think everyone knows they aren't good at football, yet when they missed the World Cup it was a bigger shock than the Netherlands and Chile. If it was Costa Rica, nobody would have cared. As for Brazil, they have earned a reputation with 5 world cups, so they are a big exception. 

That's rubbish!  Players are rated on an individual status and nobody thinks Navas is crap because he's from Costa Rica.  But even though Keylor Navas has had a great career, that doesn't promote Costa Rica to a higher plain than it deserves.  You're confusing issues and once again accusing football aficionados of discriminating against nationalities.

[SirBalon]

Just now, Blue said:

All great players but none of them except for the top 3 are immensely "talented". They were good at everything. I wouldn't say Neymar is better than a lot of the top 8, but more talented than them (except Maradona and Di Stefano). Neymar's problem is exactly what Argentina have though. Balance.

And don't take that as a "they aren't talented" way. They absolutely are. I just don't think they are the most talented.

They're all bloody great players for god sake!  What are you basing greatness on?

I mean..l people are adding Holland and all they've achieved is one European Championship in their history.  But indeed they're up there because of the great talent they've produced by having players being protagonists in great sides.  All those players in my list have been part of great football history at their clubs AND in many cases, their national team (Argentina) which is the argument we're and you're using but then contradicting yourself.

[SirBalon]

We need to bring in @Berserker here...

[Guest]

Just now, Cicero said:

You see, I disagree entirely. 

You are essentially saying freestylers, like Touzani and F2, are more talented than Lionel Messi because they perform more skills and do circus level juggling. That is just having more flair. 

Being more talented means you have more to your game compared to others. Ronaldinho, even at his best, only had two things over prime Messi. Pace and flair.  

Also, no offence, I find your definition of 'technique' absurd. Watching Messi play is one of the joys of football. Everything about him is technique given the sheer fact everything looks so natural to him. 

 

Well, agree to disagree on talent. However I don't want to go all SirBalon on you and write a bible on what talent is to me. There are so many combinations it's impossible to tell you all! 

I will say this though: I'd like to see what Touzani and F2 could do on the pitch in a 90 minute game. That's an important factor for me.

And again. I'm not saying Messi is not talented or has no technique. That would be absurd. I just don't think he posseses the technique of Neymar, Ronaldinho and Maradona. He just knows how to execute his already high level technique to a better degree, which makes him a joy to watch. Better vision and reading of the game. You see what I'm saying mate?

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

They're all bloody great players for god sake!  What are you basing greatness on?

I mean..l people are adding Holland and all they've achieved is one European Championship in their history.  But indeed they're up there because of the great talent they've produced by having players being protagonists in great sides.  All those players in my list have been part of great football history at their clubs AND in many cases, their national team (Argentina) which is the argument we're and you're using but then contradicting yourself.

I'm not basing greatness or if they are good or bad! I'm saying that I don't think they are the kings of talent aside from a few like Messi and Maradona. 

Mateo Cardona and Reimond Manco have insane talent and if that's all it took in football, they'd be playing for top clubs in top leagues. However, they don't have anything else and that's why they are playing for small clubs in small leagues. 

[SirBalon]

Just now, Blue said:

I'm not basing greatness or if they are good or bad! I'm saying that I don't think they are the kings of talent aside from a few like Messi and Maradona. 

Mateo Cardona and Reimond Manco have insane talent and if that's all it took in football, they'd be playing for top clubs in top leagues. However, they don't have anything else and that's why they are playing for small clubs in small leagues. 

Look mate, I know you, I know that no matter how many facts and how much reason is put in front of you, your pride won't let you admit you've made an error.  Everyone makes errors!  We all do!

Let's get back on point... If there are five nations of historical football talent to be written down, are you seriously telling me Argentina wouldn't be in the top 5?  HONESTLY?