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Gunnersauraus

Champions League Place For FA Cup Winner?

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Unfortunately because of the money involved in the league the fa cup has lost a lot of prestige. Would giving a champions league place to the winner help? It may also increase the money generated and then allow prize money to be increased for reaching the next round. Whether we like it or not football is about money now and it would be nice to do something to make it like it once was.

 

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It might help but I think it's a gash idea.

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Posted (edited)

I suggested that idea back in the old forum, people said it will devalue the competition.

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Just now, Azeem said:

I suggested that idea back in the old forum, people suggested it will devalue the competition.

It may do. But the fact is it is already being devalued. Sometimes you have to move with the times. The fact is the fa cup is not competing financially with the league at the moment. Managers can't afford to risk players getting injuries for it.

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20 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Why?

Well it's just another false gimmick isn't it. If they do that, they're admitting that qualifying for the Champions League is more appealing than winning an actual trophy which I'm personally not a fan of.

Having this as a prize won't help recapture the magic of the FA Cup, it will take away all the magic that's left. It will simply become another cynical route of qualifying for the Champions League, instead of being a famous trophy that teams want to win for the glory and prestige.

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It'd make a mockery of it.

Sometimes lower-league sides get to the final and if they play someone in the top 6/7 in the final and lose, usually the runner-up gets the spot by default.

Can you imagine someone like Millwall or Cardiff playing in the Champions League?! They'd get absolutely trounced and be embarrassing. 

Is there even enough space for another British side?!

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23 minutes ago, Stan said:

It'd make a mockery of it.

Sometimes lower-league sides get to the final and if they play someone in the top 6/7 in the final and lose, usually the runner-up gets the spot by default.

Can you imagine someone like Millwall or Cardiff playing in the Champions League?! They'd get absolutely trounced and be embarrassing. 

Is there even enough space for another British side?!

It could take the 4th place. If the winning side is already in the champions league it could go to the fourth place instead of runner up

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23 minutes ago, Stan said:

It'd make a mockery of it.

Sometimes lower-league sides get to the final and if they play someone in the top 6/7 in the final and lose, usually the runner-up gets the spot by default.

Can you imagine someone like Millwall or Cardiff playing in the Champions League?! They'd get absolutely trounced and be embarrassing. 

Is there even enough space for another British side?!

well the likes of qarabag, apoel and malmo arent that great either... 

 

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33 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Well it's just another false gimmick isn't it. If they do that, they're admitting that qualifying for the Champions League is more appealing than winning an actual trophy which I'm personally not a fan of.

Having this as a prize won't help recapture the magic of the FA Cup, it will take away all the magic that's left. It will simply become another cynical route of qualifying for the Champions League, instead of being a famous trophy that teams want to win for the glory and prestige.

But it is more important in now days. I don't like it but sometimes you have to move with the times.

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1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

It could take the 4th place. If the winning side is already in the champions league it could go to the fourth place instead of runner up

UEFA has already decided top 4 qualify for CL automatically. 

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2 minutes ago, Stan said:

UEFA has already decided top 4 qualify for CL automatically. 

We are given 4 places but I think we are allowed to choose how we allocate them but I could be wrong. We give away the 7 the place to the league cup so I assume we can decide

 

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Not the solution. 

Never going to happen, but the 'Champions League' should be for just champions (top 2 at a push) and we should bring back the Cup Winners Cup. 4th place is mediocrity, it is not an impressive position to finish in and should not have any reward at all.

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I've been skeptical about this idea in the past, but I think it would work now. For a long time there have been 4 teams in this country who are realistically looking at Champions League qualification. The identity of those teams has changed, but there's almost always been 4. By January, there'd be no extra incentive for the top teams to take the competition seriously because it carries the same reward as league qualification, and the latter leaves much more room for error. Now, however, there are 6  and the FA Cup would represent a realistic route for top teams to achieve something that not all of them can achieve via the league.

36 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Well it's just another false gimmick isn't it. If they do that, they're admitting that qualifying for the Champions League is more appealing than winning an actual trophy which I'm personally not a fan of.

Having this as a prize won't help recapture the magic of the FA Cup, it will take away all the magic that's left. It will simply become another cynical route of qualifying for the Champions League, instead of being a famous trophy that teams want to win for the glory and prestige.

Currently, the FA Cup winners get a Europa League place. Is that admitting that qualifying for the Europa League is more appealing than winning the FA Cup, or is it saying that winning the FA Cup is a sufficient achievement that the team who does it is one of the best teams to represent us in Europe? If the reward was Champions League qualification instead of Europa League, one could argue that the FA Cup is being shown even more respect, not less.

Your viewpoint is very idealistic. Teams already don't take the FA Cup seriously. Offering an attractive reward doesn't devalue the competition, it improves it! Offer Champions League qualification as a reward, and the top teams take it more seriously, which makes it harder to win and a more prestigious competition in its own right. We'd all rather it was taken seriously because it's the FA Cup, but that's already not happening, and it's only going one way.

27 minutes ago, Stan said:

It'd make a mockery of it.

Sometimes lower-league sides get to the final and if they play someone in the top 6/7 in the final and lose, usually the runner-up gets the spot by default.

Can you imagine someone like Millwall or Cardiff playing in the Champions League?! They'd get absolutely trounced and be embarrassing. 

Is there even enough space for another British side?!

You don't have to give the same reward to the runner-up by default. The losing Champions League finalist doesn't get the winner's spot next season if the winner has already qualified. Also, a big part of the reason you get lower league clubs in the final is because a lot of Premier League clubs field weakened teams in earlier rounds. Offer a bigger reward and you won't see anywhere near as much of that.

As for there being space for another British side, there absolutely is. They let shite like Lokomotiv Moscow and AEK Athens in (who, by the way, aren't much, if at all, better than the likes of Millwall and Cardiff) and replacing them with the winners of the FA Cup (or Copa Del Rey, DFB Pokal, etc.) would do the Champions League absolutely no harm.

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1 minute ago, Burning Gold said:

You don't have to give the same reward to the runner-up by default. The losing Champions League finalist doesn't get the winner's spot next season if the winner has already qualified. Also, a big part of the reason you get lower league clubs in the final is because a lot of Premier League clubs field weakened teams in earlier rounds. Offer a bigger reward and you won't see anywhere near as much of that.

As for there being space for another British side, there absolutely is. They let shite like Lokomotiv Moscow and AEK Athens in (who, by the way, aren't much, if at all, better than the likes of Millwall and Cardiff) and replacing them with the winners of the FA Cup (or Copa Del Rey, DFB Pokal, etc.) would do the Champions League absolutely no harm.

I know not by default. Was just wondering if that would be the case in this scenario (I wouldn't want it to be).

Also, good luck telling Russia (!) that they might not get a place in Champions League xD 

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5 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Not the solution. 

Never going to happen, but the 'Champions League' should be for just champions (top 2 at a push) and we should bring back the Cup Winners Cup. 4th place is mediocrity, it is not an impressive position to finish in and should not have any reward at all.

Only if you want a competition resembling the Rugby League World Cup whereby everyone knows who the finalists or semi-finalists will be, but we have to sit through several tedious rounds of teams half-arsing their way to one-sided scorelines before acting surprised when the semi-finalists are Juve, Barca, City, and Bayern (to use last years league champions). It would be awful.

4th place in this country takes a much stronger side than even winning leagues the the Russian, Greek, Serbian, etc. and should be rewarded accordingly.

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Just now, Burning Gold said:

Only if you want a competition resembling the Rugby League World Cup whereby everyone knows who the finalists or semi-finalists will be, but we have to sit through several tedious rounds of teams half-arsing their way to one-sided scorelines before acting surprised when the semi-finalists are Juve, Barca, City, and Bayern (to use last years league champions). It would be awful.

4th place in this country takes a much stronger side than even winning leagues the the Russian, Greek, Serbian, etc. and should be rewarded accordingly.

Only because of how the game has been made to benefit those clubs. Prior to the advent of the fabled 'Champions League' this was not the case and you regularly saw clubs from outside the usual winning it. 

4th place is an absolute nothing position, medicore and should have zero reward. Nothing clubs like Arsenal and Manchester City are now considered to be bigger* than actual European giants like Ajax and Benfica who've contributed more to this sport than most of these also rans combined. 

*Granted these people are usually cretins but since the world is largely made up of them, it's troubling.

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5 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Only because of how the game has been made to benefit those clubs. Prior to the advent of the fabled 'Champions League' this was not the case and you regularly saw clubs from outside the usual winning it. 

4th place is an absolute nothing position, medicore and should have zero reward. Nothing clubs like Arsenal and Manchester City are now considered to be bigger* than actual European giants like Ajax and Benfica who've contributed more to this sport than most of these also rans combined. 

*Granted these people are usually cretins but since the world is largely made up of them, it's troubling.

Most of the time the Europeans cup winners were from the top leagues in Europe even before the champions league

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1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Most of the time the Europeans cup winners were from the top leagues in Europe even before the champions league

It wasn't as predictable as now, nowhere near. The Champions League has effectively killed off the Dutch/Scottish/Portugese Eastern European leagues as serious contenders. It's been awful for competitive football and brilliant for big business corporations who want to make football into a brand v brand fight to the death.

 

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1 hour ago, Stan said:

It'd make a mockery of it.

Sometimes lower-league sides get to the final and if they play someone in the top 6/7 in the final and lose, usually the runner-up gets the spot by default.

Can you imagine someone like Millwall or Cardiff playing in the Champions League?! They'd get absolutely trounced and be embarrassing. 

Is there even enough space for another British side?!

¬¬¬¬¬¬

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

It wasn't as predictable as now, nowhere near. The Champions League has effectively killed off the Dutch/Scottish/Portugese Eastern European leagues as serious contenders. It's been awful for competitive football and brilliant for big business corporations who want to make football into a brand v brand fight to the death.

 

I don't know if that is all because of the champions league though. To be honest it's besides the point anyway. The point is whether it would be worth a place more than finishing 4th

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1 hour ago, Stan said:

It'd make a mockery of it.

Sometimes lower-league sides get to the final and if they play someone in the top 6/7 in the final and lose, usually the runner-up gets the spot by default.

Can you imagine someone like Millwall or Cardiff playing in the Champions League?! They'd get absolutely trounced and be embarrassing. 

Is there even enough space for another British side?!

The rules thankfully changed a few years ago so that runners up no longer got the space if the winner had already qualified.

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@Burning Gold

Why does everything have to be about the Champions League though? It's boring and outside the big six bubble to teams actually give that much of a shit? And I know there's a lot of glamour and money involved in Champions League football and that's where you find your marquee ties, and that's what tells the world you're a "top club" and allows you to attract the top players, but all of this is only realistic for six clubs in the entire country, arguably the likes of Everton, West Ham, Leicester, Wolves could dream about scraping a 4th place qualification spot at some point in the next ten years but probably not.

Take away the season to season prosperity. What do you look back on as a Liverpool fan? I'd imagine the Champions League win, primarily, but after that, I bet you remember when Gerrard almost single handedly won the FA Cup final against West Ham than "remember that time we beat Spartak Moscow or Besiktas 5-0 at Anfield?" 

Qualifying for the Champions League is all about status and long term prosperity. Getting your foot in the door for vanity reasons, financial reasons, and making marginal growth gains, you can see it clearly with Spurs and Arsenal for years, now Manchester United too.

"Yes we got back in the top four, now we can get knocked out in the last 16 of the Champions League next season while we act like we're too good for both domestic trophies because putting all of our effort into getting to the hallowed grounds of the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE QUARTER FINALS AND LOSING THERE INSTEAD. SUCH GLORY."

Honestly we get fed this crap that CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FOOTBALL is the be all and end all by the media and we all lap it up. Why does it need to be this way, can domestic football not just be enough sometimes, especially given that Champions League football is a pipe dream for 99% of English clubs? Sure, if Wigan made it into the Champions League and got knocked out 8-1 on aggregate by Ajax or Sevilla in the qualifying round when they won the FA Cup, they might have had a day out to a European stadium they'd never have otherwise visited but that wouldn't compare to the trophy winning day at Wembley. There's a whole other logistical issue there around whether the cup winners get one of the group stage slots or have to go through qualifying but that's another conversation.

I just think the entire Premier League is already geared towards being all about the Champions League and the actual competition itself almost being an after thought, dwarfed in comparison to the elusive CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FOOTBALL that we're all told to aspire to, which in actual fact is shite compared to the entertainment you get in the Premier League. When was the last time anyone bemoaned where the magic of the cup has gone in relation to the European Cup/Champions League? For an annual competition where 95% of the world's best players feature in at least some capacity, it's actually a remarkably boring competition.

The fact that Liverpool knocking out Manchester City and Roma knocking out Barcelona last season are what register as major upsets on the European radar these days tells you all you need to know about how predictable it has become. If you look at the teams that got out of the groups this year and how absolutely predictable that was, you'll see how the Champions League is just the ongoing cycle of the rich getting richer and further away from the Portos, Shakhtars, PSVs and Lyons of the world, fixing the hierarchy ever more rigidly in stone. If they had a competition between the top two teams from England, Spain and Germany a long with Juventus and PSG every season, it wouldn't get any less competitive because the whole thing is already just a procession to the quarter/semi finals.

Anyway, enough ranting about the Champions League. I just think the FA Cup can be one of the only sources left of domestic football actually having a purpose, actually having glory for glory's sake and not just well the trophy is nice but what I'm really bothered about is the £400million Champions League money and our trips to Bayern, Marseille and Lokomotiv Moscow next season before the second round loss to PSG.

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1 hour ago, Burning Gold said:

As for there being space for another British side, there absolutely is. They let shite like Lokomotiv Moscow and AEK Athens in (who, by the way, aren't much, if at all, better than the likes of Millwall and Cardiff) and replacing them with the winners of the FA Cup (or Copa Del Rey, DFB Pokal, etc.) would do the Champions League absolutely no harm.

If you are just filling the competition with more and more English teams, what's the point of the competition? And generally in recent years, English clubs outside the big six have been very poor in the lesser Europa League. The seventh best team in the team couldn't even make the group stages this year, never mind clubs below them being superior to clubs in the Champions League.

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Has it lost its prestige? I’m still seeing giantkillings year in, year out. Cardiff the latest victims of a plucky lower league side yesterday. The winners are still, usually, a big club with the odd exception. Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United and Man City have won most of the last ten finals and Wigan provided one of the biggest final shocks since probably Wimbledon beating Liverpool in the late 80’s.

I think a lot of the so-called prestige around the FA Cup comes from the history of television. In years gone by, we didn’t have as many television channels as we do now and nowhere as near as many games shown live so when the FA Cup Final was taking place, it was seen as more of a treat for everyone and so, more people would be interested in watching a game on television and so, more was made of it and the whole day. Whereas now, we have so many channels, so many football games to choose from and now so many different forms of viewing that it’s not seen as much of a big deal as the final previously was. 

In regards to the actual games and the amount of teams making so many changes to their squad for an FA Cup game, why are they doing this? There’s two main reasons for this, IMO. 

Firstly, pressure from the board. The money for winning the FA Cup is not huge. To get to the Final, you’re going to pocket a minimum of £4,995,000. That’s without TV money and ticket sales but really, it’s not that much. Plus, it’s the result of winning five games, which doesn’t sound a lot but given the winners over the past ten years have been the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, City and United, your route to the Final is likely to be hard.

Compare that to the Premier League, last season West Bromwich Albion, who got relegated, pocketed £94.7m over their thirty-eight game Premier League season. You’re not going to get anywhere near to that from an FA Cup win, so clubs owners will not be placing any importance on the FA Cup. 

I don’t want to go all “Brexit means Brexit” but I think with owners these days, there’s less of an understanding of the culture of Football here and the value the FA Cup held. They see numbers, rather than history.

Secondly, rotation. Premier League teams play thirty-eight League games, the decent ones play in Europe, before Christmas, they have to play in the League Cup and they come into FA Cup weekend, having had a number of games over Christmas. Take Cardiff for example, they’ve played five games in two weeks over Christmas, including yesterday’s game, so they’re obviously going to make some changes. That’s before we even mention that Premier League players are playing Internationally for a plethora of nations across the globe, which involves travelling to far-flung destinations.  I don’t think it’s too much of an unpopular opinion to say that Premier League clubs play too many games. 

With the rotation comes a lack of interest from the fans. Fans seemingly don’t want to pay to watch squad players, which I don’t really get in all honesty. I think it’s sometimes quite refreshing to see players in the flesh that are otherwise just names on the back of a programme or names on a video game.

Ticket prices aren’t usually bad for FA Cup games either, unless it’s a top game and there’s high demand but still people seem less inclined to go, seemingly, because their club can’t be bothered with the cup, so why should the fans?

For fans, Football is about winning. It’s, largely, not about the financials of the game. Yeah, the FA Cup gives teams an opportunity to play at a big club, should they earn a draw, and to gain the financial rewards that come with it but I’d say that the fans are celebrating the result and the fact their club has drawn with a major player in English football rather than the fact they’ve earnt money, often, which fans will never see make a difference to the playing squad. 

It’s an attitude thing really. It would be refreshing to see a club’s chairman say that they want to win a trophy rather than to forgo an opportunity at creating history to continue the monotony of Premier League Football every year. People won’t remember who finished 17th in the Premier League in 2011, but most will be able to tell you who won the FA Cup that year. Memories aren’t created by numbers in a bank balance going up. I reckon if you asked Wigan Athletic fans if they’d have swapped an FA Cup win for survival in that campaign, nobody would swap it. 

The Premier League won’t reduce the amount of games they play in a season. It’s not financially viable. The FA Cup and it’s sponsors won’t be able to offer a fee that makes it worth it for clubs. The League Cup is most likely to be changed/scrapped, if anything.

Some clubs though should be attempting a proper go at the FA Cup. There’s a number of teams, who at this stage of the season, are safe in the Premier League and could easily take the FA Cup with more importance but choose not to. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Only because of how the game has been made to benefit those clubs. Prior to the advent of the fabled 'Champions League' this was not the case and you regularly saw clubs from outside the usual winning it. 

4th place is an absolute nothing position, medicore and should have zero reward. Nothing clubs like Arsenal and Manchester City are now considered to be bigger* than actual European giants like Ajax and Benfica who've contributed more to this sport than most of these also rans combined. 

*Granted these people are usually cretins but since the world is largely made up of them, it's troubling.

I don't disagree, but that's how it is these days and I really can't see it going back to how it was unfortunately. Even with the changes you'd like to see, the sheer sums of money flowing into those clubs will ensure they always remain stronger than the rest. If you have one of each, I'd put my house on the semi-finalists almost always being the champions of Spain, Italy, Germany, and England.

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

@Burning Gold

Why does everything have to be about the Champions League though?...

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say either, but there's a fundamental disconnect between what the owners want (money) and what the majority of fans want (winning football matches). It is all about the Champions League because that's where the money is. Champions League for the clubs strong enough to aim for it, domestic top flight for the clubs who aren't. You want the owners to want the same thing as the fans? Make the incentives line up. When you say this:

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I just think the FA Cup can be one of the only sources left of domestic football actually having a purpose, actually having glory for glory's sake and not just well the trophy is nice but what I'm really bothered about is the £400million Champions League money and our trips to Bayern, Marseille and Lokomotiv Moscow next season before the second round loss to PSG.

That is the incentives lining up. The owners and bean counters can celebrate the payday while the fans celebrate the trophy. Everyone's happy

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I think one of best ways of boosting Fa Cup is to reduce the excuses managers have for resting players.

I would do this if it was possible

Champions League places for top 3 in Premier League and Qualifying Spot for winners of FA Cup.

The League Cup is a football league trophy so i would make it just that so only Championship, League One and League two clubs take part, straight away reducing fixtures for big clubs that they all moan about and that would also have the bonus of removing the football league trophy which nobody is to bothered about anyway.

FA Cup i would potentially remove replays again to reduce the excuse of to many games and potentially if level after 90 minutes go straight to penalties.

Better fixture planning also, we all love Boxing Day and New Years day games so keep them but remove the Saturday game in-between maybe, go to an 18 team premier league and 20 teams in football league, there is plenty of options on reducing fixtures so its up to officials been radical instead of allowing all these multiple changes everytime there is a cup game.

I love the Fa Cup and seeing Blades make 10 changes and then them coming in not even bothering was painful.


 

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Posted (edited)
On 06/01/2019 at 14:37, Gunnersauraus said:

Unfortunately because of the money involved in the league the fa cup has lost a lot of prestige. Would giving a champions league place to the winner help? It may also increase the money generated and then allow prize money to be increased for reaching the next round. Whether we like it or not football is about money now and it would be nice to do something to make it like it once was.

 

Not really because we already have a CL place so.. :what:

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I think better financial remuneration is required to get teams and their owners more interested again in the FA Cup. 

An FA Cup win bags you about £5m in prize money, excluding the income you get from ticket sales, which is peanuts compared to even a 17th place finish in the Premier League. 

If you could offer prize money that was £20m+ for a Cup win, I reckon some teams would be more willing to have a crack at winning the FA Cup than they are now. 

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9 hours ago, S2_Blade said:

I think one of best ways of boosting Fa Cup is to reduce the excuses managers have for resting players.

I would do this if it was possible

Champions League places for top 3 in Premier League and Qualifying Spot for winners of FA Cup.

The League Cup is a football league trophy so i would make it just that so only Championship, League One and League two clubs take part, straight away reducing fixtures for big clubs that they all moan about and that would also have the bonus of removing the football league trophy which nobody is to bothered about anyway.

FA Cup i would potentially remove replays again to reduce the excuse of to many games and potentially if level after 90 minutes go straight to penalties.

Better fixture planning also, we all love Boxing Day and New Years day games so keep them but remove the Saturday game in-between maybe, go to an 18 team premier league and 20 teams in football league, there is plenty of options on reducing fixtures so its up to officials been radical instead of allowing all these multiple changes everytime there is a cup game.

I love the Fa Cup and seeing Blades make 10 changes and then them coming in not even bothering was painful.


 

Personally i would make the league cup championship to league 2 and premier league u23 teams. I think the 4th place spot  champions league place going to the fa cup winners is possible. I don't think the league will ever be reduced though

 

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