The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[OrangeKhrush]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think it’s actually an incredibly hard problem to solve because you’ve got to get large groups of ethnonationalistic people who’ve developed ethnic and religious hatred against each other to see past ethnonationalism and have a desire to live normal lives in peace.

Think about it - if there was any easy fix, the fucking conflict wouldn’t send the region into crisis every fucking time something flares up.

I still don't think that is as big an issue as you think,  looking past differences is something that can be cultured,  what has been seen in this war is the propaganda material in Palastinian homes and schools about Jews,  that is not something that cannot be corrected,  you can create a generation of change.   I think the hardest part is that it will require a transitional government and perhaps that has some difficulty.   

If there is shared experience and an understanding of real history,  it may lead to a culture of peace

[OrangeKhrush]

7 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

I'd rather say this obsession with strong leaders and strong leadership is a part of the problem rather than it's solution, to be absolutely honest. If neither the former and reigning israeli PMs nor the former and reigning Palestinian representives had always been so  busy the demonstrate "strong leadership" a compromise could have be found decades ago.

That is not what I mean by strong leadership,  strength is ability to accept difference,  and grow with it,  but also strength in the sense of western leaders refinding the western values that have long since been lost in a generation where pigeonholing people into brackets is rampant. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

I still don't think that is as big an issue as you think,  looking past differences is something that can be cultured,  what has been seen in this war is the propaganda material in Palastinian homes and schools about Jews,  that is not something that cannot be corrected,  you can create a generation of change.   I think the hardest part is that it will require a transitional government and perhaps that has some difficulty.   

If there is shared experience and an understanding of real history,  it may lead to a culture of peace

It’s something that can be corrected but generational change isn’t something that even “strong leaders” can easily implement.

For Israel it means at the very least getting back to a political sentiment the country really hasn’t had since the 90s - I think that’s pretty tough given the political climate since then. For Palestine that means having leadership that’s really unlike any leadership they’ve had since… maybe the Ottoman Empire(?) or maybe ever.

Neither of those are all that realistic - especially when you consider what @Rucksackfranzosesaid. Most leaders that try to demonstrate strength are the exact type of leaders that think compromise is weakness. For this conflict to be settled, you need both sides to have leadership with a strong appetite for compromising towards reaching a lasting peace.

There’s quite a lot of people in both communities that don’t view the other side as fully human. These aren’t easy things to try to work through.

And hoping for generational change anytime soon with the current tactics used I think is mental. We’re already seeing the foundation for the conflict’s next generation of extremists.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://apnews.com/article/33fcffde2d867380e98c89403776a8ac
 

well looks like our resident warmonger will be pleased

[Spike]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You get the first half of the year & I get 3 vetos, then we switch seats for the second half of the year.

Okay, first decision is to make a copper statue of me lifting every world cup for Australia while kicking King Charles in the arse

[6666]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This literally got started over you getting upset about being called out for the most likely reason for why you want more instability in the least stable part of the world…

I've said I want Israel to be punished for their treatment of Palestinians over decades. They're a major reason as to why there's instability in the region as well. How many countries are they bombing again?

You, like every Zionist, decided to dishonestly go with "you obviously hate Jews". I've heard of a lot of the Iranian diaspora bending over for Israel but I didn't think you were one especially at that embarrassing level but I guess you are.

[6666]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://apnews.com/article/33fcffde2d867380e98c89403776a8ac
 

well looks like our resident warmonger will be pleased

You genuinely are rattled. You just can't stop being dishonest.

[Spike]

Punishing Israel just punishes the people that live there, that isn't a solution to any problem.

[Dr. Gonzo]

40 minutes ago, 6666 said:

I've said I want Israel to be punished for their treatment of Palestinians over decades. They're a major reason as to why there's instability in the region as well. How many countries are they bombing again?

You, like every Zionist, decided to dishonestly go with "you obviously hate Jews". I've heard of a lot of the Iranian diaspora bending over for Israel but I didn't think you were one especially at that embarrassing level but I guess you are.

Unlike you I’ve not taken a side between two bad actors. Unlike you, I’ve condemned both Israel and Palestinian leadership. Because you can only see the conflict in black and white you’ve just given a simplistic narrative to any viewpoint that doesn’t fit in with the bullshit worldview you’ve bought into.

You on the other hand cannot bring yourself to criticise terror groups that call for globally wiping out all Jews. If that’s what you stand by, don’t get indignant when it’s called out.

You can justify rape and kidnapping as legitimate resistance. There is no room for nuance with you. There is no critical thinking going on in the head behind those eyes.

From the comfort of your home in the capital of the country that is most responsible for the state of the Middle East, you call for more bloodshed to whet your appetite. It’s absolutely vile.

[6666]

I know Zionists don't like Israel's hypocrisy exposed but I hope the two in here don't take this too personally.

Everything Israel accused Hamas of always seems to end up applying to Israel.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I like how I’m now suddenly super pro-Israel in this headcase’s eyes because I don’t think Iranians should die for his cause lol

[Spike]

I don’t understand this ’human shield’ concept. Military bases are staffed by humans, but they aren’t considered human shields because of civilian/military dichotomy? So military personal whether they be officers or janitors are morally inferior as humans?

 

[6666]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I like how I’m now suddenly super pro-Israel in this headcase’s eyes because I don’t think Iranians should die for his cause lol

You had less issue with Israel killing Iranians than you do with Iran responding to Israel. But I'm the headcase? Always against the parties responding to Israel more than you are against Israel causing the issues. Israel should continue killing people unchecked? Okay bibi boy. Of course you're not the headcase.

[6666]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

I don’t understand this ’human shield’ concept. 

A concept thought up by Israel & US to excuse themselves from not caring/actively targeting civilians. "Collateral damage" but more gas lighty.

[Spike]

Just now, 6666 said:

A concept thought up by Israel & US to excuse themselves from not caring/actively targeting civilians. "Collateral damage" but more gas lighty.

So when Hamas bombed that music festival it was different?

[MUFC]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://apnews.com/article/33fcffde2d867380e98c89403776a8ac
 

well looks like our resident warmonger will be pleased

Might be wrong but didn't Israel fire first?

[RandoEFC+]

I think a lot of the bickering and misunderstandings around this topic could be avoided if people on both sides could understand better that "the Jews", "Israel" and "the Israeli government" are actually distinct groups of people.

It's a fucking mess down there. Our whole lives, the vast majority of leadership in the Middle East comes from bad actors convincing their populations to hate and be scared of their neighbours so you better vote for me because I'm going to protect you and reassure you that it's okay to feel that way. The West (mostly the US) have shown themselves to be bad actors looking after their own interests also.

It's going to take more than "strong leadership" and a stiff upper lip to sort it all out. There are clearly deep and long-standing cultural and psychological issues. You've got hundreds of millions of people who have never really lived properly in peace and you're trying to convince them to trust each other and live happily side by side. You'll have about as much luck convincing everyone in Europe to stop watching football and follow water polo instead.

It'll take something seismic to reset the board down there. Hopefully it doesn't need to be world war 3.

[6666]

25 minutes ago, Spike said:

So when Hamas bombed that music festival it was different?

Don't think they claimed it as "human shields" so from that point of view yes. That was more a case of them conveniently finding an opening and then going mental. Like a slave rebellion.

[6666]

7 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's a fucking mess down there. Our whole lives, the vast majority of leadership in the Middle East comes from bad actors convincing their populations to hate and be scared of their neighbours so you better vote for me because I'm going to protect you and reassure you that it's okay to feel that way. The West (mostly the US) have shown themselves to be bad actors looking after their own interests also.

It's going to take more than "strong leadership" and a stiff upper lip to sort it all out. There are clearly deep and long-standing cultural and psychological issues. You've got hundreds of millions of people who have never really lived properly in peace and you're trying to convince them to trust each other and live happily side by side. 

I do think the boldened part is a big factor in all this. The UK & US have helped create an imbalance in the region where they support the actions of their allies like Israel & Saudi Arabia that just get away with how they treat other countries. Zero accountability on that front magnifies the frustration, resentment and anger amongst other countries in the region. Created a ticking time bomb.

[Spike]

8 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Don't think they claimed it as "human shields" so from that point of view yes. That was more a case of them conveniently finding an opening and then going mental. Like a slave rebellion.

So it's okay when Hamas kills civilians. 

[MUFC]

Reckon there might not be F1 races in the region if it carries on like this.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

You had less issue with Israel killing Iranians than you do with Iran responding to Israel. But I'm the headcase? Always against the parties responding to Israel more than you are against Israel causing the issues. Israel should continue killing people unchecked? Okay bibi boy. Of course you're not the headcase.

The IRGC are oppressors of the Iranian, einstein. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out why an Iranian might like seeing less of them in the world. Also doesn’t take a genius to see why Iranians wouldn’t want to go to war for the people who took to the streets and celebrated when Saddam Hussein invaded them and used chemical weapons on Iranians.

But genius you are not, so I can understand why you struggle to comprehend.

[Dr. Gonzo]

42 minutes ago, MUFC said:

Might be wrong but didn't Israel fire first?

Depends how you define fire first. Iran and Israel have been in a Cold War for decades now. Hamas is a proxy of Iran & Qatar, but Hezbollah is a distinctly Iranian proxy that the IRGC basically has total control over.

Like with Israel v Hamas, there’s no real “good guys” in a war with Iran & Israel. Just a lot of unwilling participants for a war that really only suits the 2 terrible leaders of the two countries.

[6666]

23 minutes ago, Spike said:

So it's okay when Hamas kills civilians. 

Who said it was okay? I said it was like a slave rebellion. Meaning it was brutal and that the anger of the oppressed is the fault of the oppressor. Said that from the start. My beef is with IDF soldiers, Israeli settlers, and the Israeli government. I've not wavered from that despite what people acting in bad faith are trying to twist things into.

[Dr. Gonzo]

25 minutes ago, Spike said:

So it's okay when Hamas kills civilians. 

He doesn’t view any Israeli as a civilian. Even babies are fair game in his eyes.