Would You Sack Pep If Man City Don't Finish Top 4?

[Spike]

Of course not! He may be bald like that one ManUtd fan on here but that isn't enough cause to question his intelligence. The knee jerk can only be so strong and he must have at least have next season to prove himself otherwise this was all just an exercise in rogaine wasted time and money. Do I think he is the best manager in the world? Gods no, but he is the best manager when he has all his tools and has understands what environment he is in. Nobody and I mean nobody would have done what he did at Barcelona, as only he had the ability and the deeper understanding of the history and philosophies club to push it to the next level. 

[Spike]

Besides he is the type that applies a philosophy to the players instead of deriving a philosophy from his players. Some people will look a team and think 'how can I approach the game with the assets I have?', Pep will say 'how can I apply my philosophy to the players I have?'.

[Inverted]

44 minutes ago, Spike said:

Besides he is the type that applies a philosophy to the players instead of deriving a philosophy from his players. Some people will look a team and think 'how can I approach the game with the assets I have?', Pep will say 'how can I apply my philosophy to the players I have?'.

Aye I remember his Barca playing with straight-up wingers, whipping in ball after ball to a big physical CF (or two), punting the ball out from the back constantly, pushing the fullbacks inside next to the holding mid, and playing two holding mids all the time.

 

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Aye I remember his Barca playing with straight-up wingers, whipping in ball after ball to a big physical CF (or two), punting the ball out from the back constantly, pushing the fullbacks inside next to the holding mid, and playing two holding mids all the time.

 

You lost me. Have I encountered one of those infamous 'incomprehensible Scots' I've heard so much about? 

[Inverted]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

You lost me. Have I encountered one of those infamous 'incomprehensible Scots' I've heard so much about? 

I'm just confused.

I saw Bayern doing all those things when Guardiola was there, and my memory might be hazy, but if it's true he doesn't adapt to his players, as you say, I'm gonna have to trust you that Barca did all those things too in the 2008-12 period.

[Spike]

5 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I'm just confused.

I saw Bayern doing all those things when Guardiola was there, and my memory might be hazy, but if it's true he doesn't adapt to his players, as you say, I'm gonna have to trust you that Barca did all those things in the 2008-12 period.

I have no idea what your point is. All of Pep's team have had the primary philosophy of ball-retention, pressing, and a defensive line that shifts positions. Just because all of his teams aren't carbon copies of eachother doesn't mean he has ever abadoned his approach to the game and shifted from his philosophy to something that you'd find in a Mark Hughes or Rafel Benetiz team. The formation is irrelevant. 

[Inverted]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

I have no idea what your point is. All of Pep's team have had the primary philosophy of ball-retention, pressing, and a defensive line that shifts positions. Just because all of his teams aren't carbon copies of eachother doesn't mean he has ever abadoned his approach to the game and shifted from his philosophy to something that you'd find in a Mark Hughes or Rafel Benetiz team. The formation is irrelevant. 

So what, the entire method of chance creation being different is still a failure to adapt? He figured out a way of playing to bring players like Lewandowski, Robben and Müller to some of the best form of their careers, that was totally alien to how Barca attacked. He brought Boateng to a whole new level by giving him more license to push forward and hit cross-field balls. He also is probably the only coach to use Neuer's skills to the fullest. 

Every manager has certain things they prefer for their teams to do, Guardiola is no different. Mourinho throws out gifted players rather than adopt a positive style to accommodate them. Klopp throws out lazy players rather than defend in a low block. There are countless more examples: almost all managers have certain things they aren't willing to compromise on, regardless of what players they're faced with.

Guardiola has a few preferred features, and they're ones (high pressing, building from the back) that basically any top team should be capable of performing. Outwith those few features he's pretty flexible. 

 

[Spike]

Just now, Inverted said:

So what, the entire method of chance creation being different is still a failure to adapt? He figured out a way of playing to bring players like Lewandowski, Robben and Müller to some of the best form of their careers, that was totally alien to how Barca attacked. He brought Boateng to a whole new level by giving him more license to push forward and hit cross-field balls. He also is probably the only coach to use Neuer's skills to the fullest. 

Every manager has certain things they prefer for their teams to do, Guardiola is no different. Mourinho throws out gifted players rather than adopt a positive style to accommodate them. Klopp throws out lazy players rather than defend in a low block. There are countless more examples: almost all managers have certain things they aren't willing to compromise on, regardless of what players they're faced with.

Guardiola has a few preferred features, and they're ones (high pressing, building from the back) that basically any top team should be capable of performing. Outwith those few features he's pretty flexible. 

 

You are taking into account the specifics of tactics and strategy. I was talking about philosophy and Pep isn't one to alter his philosophy for anything just because he tweaks the formation or tactics doesn't mean he has ever compromised his belief of what football is. All of his teams have followed a similar core structure, just because one was more prone to crossing, or another used three centre-halves doesn't mean he ever strayed from his core principals. All the things you've listed are not mutually exclusive from his philosophy, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Jose Mourinho is nothing but compromises he doesn't have a philosophy on football, he has a philosophy on winning. 

Besides, I never said that he has failed to adapt. You inferred that. 

[Spike]

If anything I said the opposite, his refusal to compromise his philosophy and his continued success are the ultimate marks of adaption.

[Inverted]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

You are taking into account the specifics of tactics and strategy. I was talking about philosophy and Pep isn't one to alter his philosophy for anything just because he tweaks the formation or tactics doesn't mean he has ever compromised his belief of what football is. All of his teams have followed a similar core structure, just because one was more prone to crossing, or another used three centre-halves doesn't mean he ever strayed from his core principals. All the things you've listed are not mutually exclusive from his philosophy, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Jose Mourinho is nothing but compromises he doesn't have a philosophy on football, he has a philosophy on winning. 

Besides, I never said that he has failed to adapt. You inferred that. 

What if he thinks that the most likely way for a top team to win is to press high up the pitch and build out from the back? And that's pretty much true. If you try to sit deep and punt it out from the back, you give up most of your advantages vs smaller teams. 

Like when Vardy scored against City: the goalie punts it into midfield, City are outmuscled easily, and within a couple passes of passes Vardy is in behind. With a squad that's old af and severely lacking in physicality, is the way his team tries to play not at least on the face of it logical? 

Likewise for the high line. With Stones in the back and the lack of quality at fullback, I highly doubt defending in and around their box would improve their situation much. 

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Inverted said:

What if he thinks that the most likely way for a top team to win is to press high up the pitch and build out from the back? And that's pretty much true. If you try to sit deep and punt it out from the back, you give up most of your advantages vs smaller teams. 

Like when Vardy scored against City: the goalie punts it into midfield, City are outmuscled easily, and within a couple passes of passes Vardy is in behind. With a squad that's old af and severely lacking in physicality, is the way his team tries to play not at least on the face of it logical? 

Likewise for the high line. With Stones in the back and the lack of quality at fullback, I highly doubt defending in and around their box would improve their situation much. 

The Vardy instance is hardly Pep's fault though, no? I doubt he told whatever keeper he was using at the time to punt it to the midfield every time, just as I doubt he'd ask the GK to pass it short every time; that'd be exploitable and predictable. There is only so much that can be attributed to the manager's influence. Y

For me a man that compromises is as I mentioned earlier Jose Mourinho. He started his second stint at Chelsea playing cavalier, I remember some ridiculous games like that 6-3 against Everton. The moment the stakes are high he reverts to whatever style he can to grind out results. There is no preference for what happens on the pitch in an aesthetic or strategic sense, as long as the approach accomplishes the goal of winning. 

[SirBalon]

13 minutes ago, Inverted said:

What if he thinks that the most likely way for a top team to win is to press high up the pitch and build out from the back? And that's pretty much true. If you try to sit deep and punt it out from the back, you give up most of your advantages vs smaller teams. 

Like when Vardy scored against City: the goalie punts it into midfield, City are outmuscled easily, and within a couple passes of passes Vardy is in behind. With a squad that's old af and severely lacking in physicality, is the way his team tries to play not at least on the face of it logical? 

Likewise for the high line. With Stones in the back and the lack of quality at fullback, I highly doubt defending in and around their box would improve their situation much. 

In the philosophy Barça have always used it's been high pressure in numbers (packs) so as to thieve the ball quickly defending from the front.  I think in Barça's best Guardiola moments that particular detail was the main feature which not only kept so many clean sheets, but also because of the terror of how quick the transitional passing turned into goal opportunities, the opposing side was never very confident on what to do with the ball when they actually managed to get possession of it.  That format can work even now with modifications, but you need the right players or at least to have intelligent players that understand the amount of discipline in recovery you have to have for every single minute or until you're out of sight in the scoresheet.

This is why Yaya Touré as good as he was, was ousted and replaced with Sergio Busquets (Busquets was practically a child then) who was more diverse in what to do with the ball and always recovered his position (or a colleague's) when the ball was lost.

It's the speed of thought, almost knowing what's going to be done before the ball is won.

Too much emphasis is put on backlines when talking about defending and it's actually the front line and especially the midfield that are the most important factor in defending within a collective sport.

[Spike]

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

In the philosophy Barça have always used it's been high pressure in numbers (packs) so as to thieve the ball quickly defending from the front.  I think in Barça's best Guardiola moments that particular detail was the main feature which not only kept so many clean sheets, but also because of the terror of how quick the transitional passing turned into goal opportunities, the opposing side was never very confident on what to do with the ball when they actually managed to get possession of it.  That format can work even now with modifications, but you need the right players or at least to have intelligent players that understand the amount of discipline in recovery you have to have for every single minute or until you're out of sight in the scoresheet.

This is why Yaya Touré as good as he was, was ousted and replaced with Sergio Busquets (Busquets was practically a child then) who was more diverse in what to do with the ball and always recovered his position (or a colleague's) when the ball was lost.

It's the speed of thought, almost knowing what's going to be done before the ball is won.

Too much emphasis is put on backlines when talking about defending and it's actually the front line and especially the midfield that are the most important factor in defending within a collective sport.

The only notable trick I noticed to the Barca back four of Pep's era is the tactical genius of Eric Abidal. He was both a full-back and a third centre-half. He would join in on the attacking and become an outlet for wide support but his main role to balance the team and slide into a third centre position while Dani Alves roamed forward. It was to prevent the team from being exposed to by Alves cavalier approach to his defensive responsibilities. Well that was my take anyway. This tactic is one of the reasons I believe Cesar Azpiliceuta would be the perfect player for Barca. Sure he is as technical limited as Abidal  was but his positional awareness and fluidity of movement would be perfection for balancing out a team that allows Jordi Alba free licence on the left hand side. Hell, he could even play as the left sided foil to Aleix Vidal and also partner Pique in the heart.

[SirBalon]

30 minutes ago, Spike said:

The only notable trick I noticed to the Barca back four of Pep's era is the tactical genius of Eric Abidal. He was both a full-back and a third centre-half. He would join in on the attacking and become an outlet for wide support but his main role to balance the team and slide into a third centre position while Dani Alves roamed forward. It was to prevent the team from being exposed to by Alves cavalier approach to his defensive responsibilities. Well that was my take anyway. This tactic is one of the reasons I believe Cesar Azpiliceuta would be the perfect player for Barca. Sure he is as technical limited as Abidal  was but his positional awareness and fluidity of movement would be perfection for balancing out a team that allows Jordi Alba free licence on the left hand side. Hell, he could even play as the left sided foil to Aleix Vidal and also partner Pique in the heart.

Yeah, Abidal was special and used to sacrifice himself a lot for the team like Mascherano does actually.  Eric Abidal was a tremendous full-back (left sided) that was very underrated at the time in my view and like you said, he knew when to tuck into a central position when needed in recovery mode from the only way teams used to know how to try and attack Barça which was with long searching balls to the flanks in one or two touch transitions.  Infact Guardiola used him various times when there were either injuries or suspensions in a central defensive position.  The same can be said of Seidu Keita who knew how to back into a defensive position and do it well.  This is what I'm talking about with intelligent players.  It's not just being disciplined in taking your teammate's position when he's joined in an attack, but to understand the mechanics of the team when they made tirangles (the triangle was infact imperative for defending from the front).

As for Cesar Azpilucueta...  I rate him as a disciplined player that's extremely astute in defensive duties but lacks technical ability and adventure where attacking is concerned for that type of football.  That's only an opinion of mine and I reckon it's the main reason why he's never been one to cement his position in the Spain national team or squad.

[Dan+]

No I wouldn't. I think he's been a bit of a disappointment although I think more than anything he's guilty of over-estimating his defenders (granted he did spend a lot on one). I don't buy that he hasn't "adapted to the Premier League" or any of that when that's just a silly mindset to take and shows no belief in your own methods, although he has made some errors for sure.

I do think he's building something there though and they will be a lot stronger next season. I have more faith in them than I do Man Utd.

[Fusion]

9 hours ago, The Rebel CRS said:

We used to have a great laugh on that game didn't we pal?  Do you have a PS4 now? As we will have to have a game sometime.

Haha yeah mate, even the friendly games were great, not just the tournament ones. I don't have FIFA, I may get the next one to show again my great tactics.

[Happy Blue]

Not a chance, why would you sack the man that's just about to make us the best team in the world?? 

[Happy Blue]

18 hours ago, Salford Kel said:

 it'll be interesting to see how he copes at a club that isn't even the biggest or best club in their city, let alone the league.

 

 

Are we really going down that road again??   ...the only time ManU shited play in Manchester is when the red shit come to our stadium 

[Vegan Kel]

11 hours ago, Happy Blue said:

 

Are we really going down that road again??   ...the only time ManU shited play in Manchester is when the red shit come to our stadium 

'Our' stadium is right - it belongs to taxpayers #CouncilHouse 

[Happy Blue]

4 hours ago, Salford Kel said:

'Our' stadium is right - it belongs to taxpayers #CouncilHouse 

It belongs to Mancunians, and Manchester belongs to City  ...united fans pay council tax to Trafford and London council's respectively

[Vegan Kel]

4 hours ago, Happy Blue said:

It belongs to Mancunians, and Manchester belongs to City  ...united fans pay council tax to Trafford and London council's respectively

Citeh don't even have any Manc players. Barely any English ones either

[Happy Blue]

48 minutes ago, Salford Kel said:

Citeh don't even have any Manc players. Barely any English ones either

We do in the elite, and youth teams    ...you don't have any from Trafford! 

[Vegan Kel]

1 minute ago, Happy Blue said:

We do in the elite, and youth teams    ...you don't have any from Trafford! 

That's great news for Stockport (where 99% of your fans are from) and Oldham which is where they'll end up

[Dave]

Wenger aside, given the quality of mangers in this country you'd be mad to think of replacing your manager if you're a top side.

You're up against Mourinho, Klopp and Conte now. Not DiMatteo, Sherwood and Rodgers.

[nfb_10]

Certainly not. He was brought in for the long term and it would be City's loss if they were to sack him. This season City have failed to pick up wins in games they've played well in thanks to a diabolical defense and failure to convert infront of goal...but give Pep this summer to clear deadwood and bring in some new players and then next season should be much better for City.