Everton 1-1 Tottenham - Sunday 3rd November, 2019

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Don't think that study really captures what I'm talking about, to be honest. Fouls in the opposition half certainly can be cynical, but they can also be completely innocent. Us and Man City are obviously likely to commit a lot of them because that's where most of the game is, we press high, and we counter press when we lose it. Also, attacking players aren't particularly good at making tackles, but often attempt them with a degree of enthusiasm as they sense a cheap opportunity to create a scoring chance, and there's less consequence to being beaten.

I'd actually expect the deliberate cynical foul to occur more in the fouling player's half as the attack needs time to develop to make it worth making that type of foul and taking the (inadequate) punishment of a yellow card. Hardly a representative sample, but the two examples from earlier (Son on Gomes, Choudhury on Salah) were both in the fouling player's half and seemed fairly typical of the type.

The article alludes to it, really, and mention the high-press approach of both. So they delve deeper...

Quote

 

Last season, 58.84% of City's 328 fouls were committed inside the opposition half, the third highest in the Premier League.

Who was highest? Liverpool, with 63.17% of their 315 fouls coming in the opponent's territory.

Does that mean Man City and Liverpool are both tactical foul experts?

Not necessarily, because both teams use a high-pressing approach, regardless of whether they have just given the ball away or not.

Now, if we're taking the definition of a tactical foul to be one that is committed soon after giving the ball away - surely that's what we need to be looking at?

And thanks to some big-time number crunching from data analysts Opta, we can do just that.

 

Liverpool and Man City still near the top to be the quickest to foul an opponent after the ball is given away.

Quote

 

On average last season, Man City's fouls after giving the ball away came 8.3 seconds after the ball was turned over. Only Arsenal's 8.2 seconds was quicker.

That would back up the claim that City are keen to quickly commit a foul after surrendering possession.

But Liverpool also fouled, on average, 8.3 seconds after coughing up the ball, exactly the same time as City.

If we go back one more season, to 2017-18, the trend continues - City are on 7.6 seconds (second quickest) and Liverpool are on 8.3 seconds (third quickest).

It seems that while City are accomplished tactical foulers, it is unfair to single them out as the only masters of the art, with Liverpool competing for the crown.

 

 

[Smiley Culture]

Actually, watching it on replay, that’s a  yellow for Son. One of those clichéd “striker’s challenges”. As for the explanation that he put someone else’s safety in jeopardy, I don’t really buy that. 

Also, only having seen replays on my phone, Aurier’s part in the incident is far worse and deserving of a red. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Smiley Culture said:

Actually, watching it on replay, that’s a  yellow for Son. One of those clichéd “striker’s challenges”. As for the explanation that he put someone else’s safety in jeopardy, I don’t really buy that. 

Also, only having seen replays on my phone, Aurier’s part in the incident is far worse and deserving of a red. 

I agree with this take on it.

I think Spurs are going to appeal Son's red card... and imo it should probably be rescinded. Like you say... it's a cliché strikers challenge & yeah it's obviously incredibly unfortunate that Gomes got pretty severely hurt. It's a booking - but it's not a red card imo, despite there being that very unpleasant injury.

I agree that Aurier's part looks worse - but at the same time it happens pretty quick and I'm not sure how much intent he really had (if any). But I think on one of the angles of the incident I saw, the break certainly appears to come from Son's challenge.

I don't really want to rewatch it because the 2 times I did watch it, seeing Gomes rolling around in agony as his foot is pointing in the wrong direction and all the players around him on both sides suddenly panic is really unpleasant. I feel so fucking bad for him - I was happy to see Everton say that he's expected to make a full recovery.

[Dan+]

9 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I think we can all be in agreement that it wasn't worthy of a red card, but I do sympathise with the referee in that scenario. I might be wrong so I will stand corrected if so but I don't think it was awarded by VAR. Without seeing what happened, looking at the injury and Son's reaction and the full-on panic going on around the incident, it looked like Son's tackle had caused it, even Son himself seemed to think so, and I think to keep emotions under control, he has to produce a red card. Son was so upset by the incident that it was probably best for him to go off the pitch anyway even if it fucked Spurs over by going a man down. Aurier was the other player affected by it and was wisely subbed off as well.

It exposes another rule in football that just doesn't work in practice. Son tripped up Gomes which led to a horror injury, even though it was a freak injury, by definition, Son has "endangered an opponent" by tripping him up. But then what do we do? This is the greatest evidence you'll see that any tackle in football is potentially endangering an opponent, and we aren't going to give a red card for every little cynical trip like this because that's ridiculous. I've been trying to argue for a long time that a lot of the challenges we see that get classed as "dangerous" and "over the top of the ball" when they're actually just an inch or two off the ground and clearly going for the ball, shouldn't be automatic red cards, but that's the way the game's gone in the last few years.

This isn't the first time that a player has been punished for the consequences of his actions rather than his actual actions. It's very clear that if Son had done the same thing and Gomes hadn't had that horrible collision with Aurier, that he would only have been booked.

This phenomenon isn't limited to football either. Say you drive way over the speed limit in real life, a fairly minor offence relatively speaking, and get pulled over by the police, then you'll get a fine and some points on your license at worst. Do the exact same thing but a child runs across the road in front of you and ends up seriously hurt or killed, then suddenly you're looking at jail time. It's wrong and I don't agree with it, I've always thought you should punish the action over the unforeseen or unlikely circumstance, but that's been the world we live in for a long time.

Anyway, hopefully they review the decision and rescind the suspension.

It's spot on as well. It's ironic really how few legs actually get broken given how many potential leg breakers we keep supposedly seeing.

It's another self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Dan+]

Cynical fouling is common sense to be honest as dirty as that sounds.

[Lucas]

Top class from Seamus Coleman.

 

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, Lucas said:

Top class from Seamus Coleman.

 

He has been there himself of course, on the slightly more painful side of it but still.

Worst thing about this is our major fan accounts on Twitter kicking off like absolute cunts and saying we're too nice because of this and that it was embarrassing from Silva not to spend his post-match interview putting heavy pressure on the authorities by calling out the VAR decisions that have gone against us in the last couple of games. Unfortunately these accounts seem to represent an unfortunate majority of our fanbase now and I just can't identify with any of it. I've lost count of the number of tweets I've seen from our fans since Sunday saying "why is anyone feeling sorry for Son, Gomes is the victim here" as if they wouldn't be arsed if they'd been part of an accident that broke someone's leg so horrifically. Absolute keyboard warrior gobshites all of them. There's one thing that Everton have always had to be proud of in my lifetime and that is that we're a good, fair club represented, most of the time, by good people on and off the pitch.

It's extremely upsetting that a lot of our fans are unable to see it as a positive thing that when the accident happened, our players went straight to both Andre Gomes and Son to comfort them. They genuinely would rather see our players being nasty little cunts and somehow take advantage of the situation and get in Son's face to try and make us seem like more of an intimidating team or something. That's just not Everton. I'm all for being a bit nasty on the pitch and not giving anything away to your opponents but that issue simply doesn't exist when there's a lad lying on the pitch with his foot hanging off.

We should be proud to have someone as club captain who understands that football is actually meant to be something that brings people together rather than being 'win at all costs' and nothing else matters, and is capable of showing some compassion to an opponent. Not every little thing has to be about wins, losses, trophies and rivalry. A lot of people don't seem to be proud though and that makes me really worried about our fanbase, but really it's just another reflection of the increasingly 'every man for himself' society that we live in nowadays.

[Lucas]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

He has been there himself of course, on the slightly more painful side of it but still.

Worst thing about this is our major fan accounts on Twitter kicking off like absolute cunts and saying we're too nice because of this and that it was embarrassing from Silva not to spend his post-match interview putting heavy pressure on the authorities by calling out the VAR decisions that have gone against us in the last couple of games. Unfortunately these accounts seem to represent an unfortunate majority of our fanbase now and I just can't identify with any of it. I've lost count of the number of tweets I've seen from our fans since Sunday saying "why is anyone feeling sorry for Son, Gomes is the victim here" as if they wouldn't be arsed if they'd been part of an accident that broke someone's leg so horrifically. Absolute keyboard warrior gobshites all of them. There's one thing that Everton have always had to be proud of in my lifetime and that is that we're a good, fair club represented, most of the time, by good people on and off the pitch.

It's extremely upsetting that a lot of our fans are unable to see it as a positive thing that when the accident happened, our players went straight to both Andre Gomes and Son to comfort them. They genuinely would rather see our players being nasty little cunts and somehow take advantage of the situation and get in Son's face to try and make us seem like more of an intimidating team or something. That's just not Everton. I'm all for being a bit nasty on the pitch and not giving anything away to your opponents but that issue simply doesn't exist when there's a lad lying on the pitch with his foot hanging off.

We should be proud to have someone as club captain who understands that football is actually meant to be something that brings people together rather than being 'win at all costs' and nothing else matters, and is capable of showing some compassion to an opponent. Not every little thing has to be about wins, losses, trophies and rivalry. A lot of people don't seem to be proud though and that makes me really worried about our fanbase, but really it's just another reflection of the increasingly 'every man for himself' society that we live in nowadays.

I also wonder, do you think this 'venting' is there because of how disillusioned the fans are with the club?

No real progression, no real feel good factor at the club, managers in and out over the years, nothing to genuinely get excited about as an Everton fan, so they feel the need to vent a negative attitude at the club because that is what they are used to?

It doesn't condone it by the way, but I can understand it in a roundabout way.

Shame, because I think Seamus Coleman has put the club in such good light there. Normally you can get a real bitter fall out from these things but this is brilliant to see.

[RandoEFC+]

32 minutes ago, Lucas said:

I also wonder, do you think this 'venting' is there because of how disillusioned the fans are with the club?

No real progression, no real feel good factor at the club, managers in and out over the years, nothing to genuinely get excited about as an Everton fan, so they feel the need to vent a negative attitude at the club because that is what they are used to?

It doesn't condone it by the way, but I can understand it in a roundabout way.

Shame, because I think Seamus Coleman has put the club in such good light there. Normally you can get a real bitter fall out from these things but this is brilliant to see.

Definitely a factor and possible the main factor behind it yeah. There's absolutely no patience for managers, new players or anything now. You can see at many televised home games that the fans seem to turn up and just wait for an excuse to get on someone's back. In a way I can't blame them/us after all we were promised when we finally came into some money 5 years ago compared to what's actually been delivered but at the same time if the fans don't get back on side and keep hounding out manager after manager after every poor run then this is what we're going to keep seeing for the foreseeable future.

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

He has been there himself of course, on the slightly more painful side of it but still.

Worst thing about this is our major fan accounts on Twitter kicking off like absolute cunts and saying we're too nice because of this and that it was embarrassing from Silva not to spend his post-match interview putting heavy pressure on the authorities by calling out the VAR decisions that have gone against us in the last couple of games. Unfortunately these accounts seem to represent an unfortunate majority of our fanbase now and I just can't identify with any of it. I've lost count of the number of tweets I've seen from our fans since Sunday saying "why is anyone feeling sorry for Son, Gomes is the victim here" as if they wouldn't be arsed if they'd been part of an accident that broke someone's leg so horrifically. Absolute keyboard warrior gobshites all of them. There's one thing that Everton have always had to be proud of in my lifetime and that is that we're a good, fair club represented, most of the time, by good people on and off the pitch.

It's extremely upsetting that a lot of our fans are unable to see it as a positive thing that when the accident happened, our players went straight to both Andre Gomes and Son to comfort them. They genuinely would rather see our players being nasty little cunts and somehow take advantage of the situation and get in Son's face to try and make us seem like more of an intimidating team or something. That's just not Everton. I'm all for being a bit nasty on the pitch and not giving anything away to your opponents but that issue simply doesn't exist when there's a lad lying on the pitch with his foot hanging off.

We should be proud to have someone as club captain who understands that football is actually meant to be something that brings people together rather than being 'win at all costs' and nothing else matters, and is capable of showing some compassion to an opponent. Not every little thing has to be about wins, losses, trophies and rivalry. A lot of people don't seem to be proud though and that makes me really worried about our fanbase, but really it's just another reflection of the increasingly 'every man for himself' society that we live in nowadays.

We all have shithouse fans mate, dont worry about it. 

Coleman doing an excellent job here as club captain. 

[Stan]

53 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Top class from Seamus Coleman.

 

Heard about that after the match. Seamus has always been a great professional and like above, has been through it. 

He is one of the good guys 

[RandoEFC+]

20 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

We all have shithouse fans mate, dont worry about it. 

Coleman doing an excellent job here as club captain. 

I do worry about it though. It's not just a few troll accounts on Twitter, it genuinely seems to be the most followed fan accounts, School of Science, Royal Blue Mersey etc. Thankfully looking through the comments it doesn't seem to be widespread across the whole fanbase as a lot of people comment disagreeing with them but it's still a concern when major voices in the Everton fans community are making such comments.

[Stan]

Son's red card overturned. Correct decision. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

He has been there himself of course, on the slightly more painful side of it but still.

Worst thing about this is our major fan accounts on Twitter kicking off like absolute cunts and saying we're too nice because of this and that it was embarrassing from Silva not to spend his post-match interview putting heavy pressure on the authorities by calling out the VAR decisions that have gone against us in the last couple of games. Unfortunately these accounts seem to represent an unfortunate majority of our fanbase now and I just can't identify with any of it. I've lost count of the number of tweets I've seen from our fans since Sunday saying "why is anyone feeling sorry for Son, Gomes is the victim here" as if they wouldn't be arsed if they'd been part of an accident that broke someone's leg so horrifically. Absolute keyboard warrior gobshites all of them. There's one thing that Everton have always had to be proud of in my lifetime and that is that we're a good, fair club represented, most of the time, by good people on and off the pitch.

It's extremely upsetting that a lot of our fans are unable to see it as a positive thing that when the accident happened, our players went straight to both Andre Gomes and Son to comfort them. They genuinely would rather see our players being nasty little cunts and somehow take advantage of the situation and get in Son's face to try and make us seem like more of an intimidating team or something. That's just not Everton. I'm all for being a bit nasty on the pitch and not giving anything away to your opponents but that issue simply doesn't exist when there's a lad lying on the pitch with his foot hanging off.

We should be proud to have someone as club captain who understands that football is actually meant to be something that brings people together rather than being 'win at all costs' and nothing else matters, and is capable of showing some compassion to an opponent. Not every little thing has to be about wins, losses, trophies and rivalry. A lot of people don't seem to be proud though and that makes me really worried about our fanbase, but really it's just another reflection of the increasingly 'every man for himself' society that we live in nowadays.

I mean, in my initial reaction to the incident... I understand why Son is distraught, but I did think it was weird the media seemed to be "oh my, poor Son" more than they were talking about the player with the visibly horrific injury. And I think a lot of that "who cares about Son's feelings here" in the initial aftermath is in response to that initial media coverage. And when you've got most, if not all, northern clubs feeling like there's generally media bias against them & you've got an injury where it's pretty fucking obvious your player is pretty wounded... mixed with the whole tribalism of football you'll get a bunch of angry and indignant responses.

On the counter point to seeing a lot of angry Evertonian keyboard warriors... I've actually seen loads of posts by Evertonians on Instagram (and on those "fan club" pages of Instagram) where Coleman's been given a lot of praise for how he's reached out to console Son. And I think after the initial shock of seeing Gomes writhing around in pain with his foot sticking in a direction it shouldn't be sticking, while your players are around him freaking the fuck out, almost everyone agrees what Coleman did was sound as fuck. And what a good person would do.

Coleman's in a unique position having suffered his own unique freak injury. He can console Son and let him know he's not to blame - and sometimes horrible shite like this can happen in football. And he'll also be there for Gomes his teammate, because lengthy injuries are supposed to be REALLY shit for the injured player. Not just because of the pain of injury, but because you feel like a forgotten man at times - you spend a lot of time working with a physio by yourself rather than working with the team and so many players have said the loneliest they've ever felt is when they were out with a long injury. And Coleman knows that and I'm sure will be doing what he can to make Gomes feel connected and part of the team - I'm sure of it, because he demonstrated his character by consoling Son, he's also been in Gomes's shoes with a bad injury... and from what I've seen with us sound lads who've experienced the struggles of long injury layoffs usually do what they can when their teammate ends up in that same lonely position.

But I think more of the stupid shite you're talking about is more a product of emotions running high and keyboard warriors using internet anonymity to blast their emotions out. And I think once things settle, that's not actually how most people feel. Although people are pretty reluctant to hold their hands up and say "my bad, I said something stupid because my emotions were running high" so you won't get people admitting that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Son's red card overturned. Correct decision. 

 

Funnily, for the Canadian Premier League final my dad's friend came over to watch and he said that he's never seen a red card overturned (Borges' red card in the first leg was rightly overturned). So now I've just seen two in one week!