Everton 1-1 Tottenham - Sunday 3rd November, 2019

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

He definitely did something wrong. It's a shithouse tackle where he had no chance of winning the ball, and it was almost certainly a reaction to their little clash a couple of minutes beforehand where Gomes stuck his hand a bit in Son's face when he was shielding the ball from him, but you're also right that players do that in every game and only get booked.

Son is unlucky to be involved in the incident and I hope he doesn't get dogs abuse for it off our fans because of it, but nowhere near as unlucky as Gomes who actually didn't do anything wrong.

I find it hard to feel that sorry for him though because if he hadn't made that petulant tackle then a lad my age who represents my club and is a beloved figure of our fans hasn't just lost at least a year of his career.

Fair enough. I just see it different. I dont think Son goes in to hurt Gomez at all. Just very unfortunate. 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Storts said:

Just got back from Goodison.

VAR is an absolute farce.

Firstly wish Gomes all the best with his recovery - awful to see

secondly though that is absolutely shocking officiating again to send off Son, who’s tackle is just a yellow. Aurier hasn’t really done anything wrong either other than being there. Just cause there’s a very unfortunate injury doesn’t mean there’s a red card. They’ve cost us a win there. 

Everton the worst team we’ve played all season...and they could quite easily say the same about us. Two terrible teams devoid of confidence. 

Eriksen needs to never play for this club again. He’s stealing a living and should be exiled. Absolute prick.

No idea on handball as up the other end. Thought son was a pen in real time. 

Ugh not sure why I bother anymore though - football really isn’t enjoyable at the moment. 

TAD embarrassing himself again in this topic. Needs to stop the Sunday drinking 

Truly a horrid match to watch. To be brutally honest my impression of Spurs was that there was very little threat of you creating anything until that shocking ball from Iwobi. We were no better isolating Richarlison up front to make sure we had you covered defensively and expecting him to pull off some Diego Costa type miracle work up top.

It was obvious from the start that both teams didn't want to risk too much because a draw would be seen as a 'safe' result for both teams in the context of their recent form.

I think we're in a similar boat, the quality is there and I feel for both teams you just need a bit of luck and momentum to get you going. There are no easy games in this league though so you have to make your own luck.

The Eriksen situation is a shit one. He doesn't seem to have a bad attitude on the pitch from a neutral perspective but I've not seen him play as often or paid as much attention to his body language as you. The noises coming from Poch and other sources seem to point to him wanting out. Perhaps the solution is indeed to do what Southampton did with Van Dijk and say fine, we will sell you, but only on our terms and in the meantime you train with the youth team.

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Fair enough. I just see it different. I dont think Son goes in to hurt Gomez at all. Just very unfortunate. 

He obviously didn't mean to snap his leg in two but there was no intention to play the ball, it was a cynical foul.

However, as we've both said, it happens every week and usually leaves players without a scratch on them. I'm not trying to vilify the lad at all. I do genuinely believe he was gutted about it and I won't hold anything against him. I just can't go as far as to say he did nothing wrong because he did.

[LFCMadLad]

5 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Truly a horrid match to watch. To be brutally honest my impression of Spurs was that there was very little threat of you creating anything until that shocking ball from Iwobi. We were no better isolating Richarlison up front to make sure we had you covered defensively and expecting him to pull off some Diego Costa type miracle work up top.

It was obvious from the start that both teams didn't want to risk too much because a draw would be seen as a 'safe' result for both teams in the context of their recent form.

I think we're in a similar boat, the quality is there and I feel for both teams you just need a bit of luck and momentum to get you going. There are no easy games in this league though so you have to make your own luck.

The Eriksen situation is a shit one. He doesn't seem to have a bad attitude on the pitch from a neutral perspective but I've not seen him play as often or paid as much attention to his body language as you. The noises coming from Poch and other sources seem to point to him wanting out. Perhaps the solution is indeed to do what Southampton did with Van Dijk and say fine, we will sell you, but only on our terms and in the meantime you train with the youth team.

The difference with VVD is that he had 4 years left on his contract. Erikson is available on a free in just over 6 months. 

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

He obviously didn't mean to snap his leg in two but there was no intention to play the ball, it was a cynical foul.

However, as we've both said, it happens every week and usually leaves players without a scratch on them. I'm not trying to vilify the lad at all. I do genuinely believe he was gutted about it and I won't hold anything against him. I just can't go as far as to say he did nothing wrong because he did.

Yeah fair do's. 

[Dan+]

1 hour ago, Storts said:

Just got back from Goodison.

VAR is an absolute farce.

Firstly wish Gomes all the best with his recovery - awful to see

secondly though that is absolutely shocking officiating again to send off Son, who’s tackle is just a yellow. Aurier hasn’t really done anything wrong either other than being there. Just cause there’s a very unfortunate injury doesn’t mean there’s a red card. They’ve cost us a win there. 

Everton the worst team we’ve played all season...and they could quite easily say the same about us. Two terrible teams devoid of confidence. 

Eriksen needs to never play for this club again. He’s stealing a living and should be exiled. Absolute prick.

No idea on handball as up the other end. Thought son was a pen in real time. 

Ugh not sure why I bother anymore though - football really isn’t enjoyable at the moment. 

TAD embarrassing himself again in this topic. Needs to stop the Sunday drinking 

Yeah to be honest I was wrong about Aurier as well. I think the whole incident's actually really unlucky. It's a freak.

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Storts said:

Just got back from Goodison.

VAR is an absolute farce.

Firstly wish Gomes all the best with his recovery - awful to see

secondly though that is absolutely shocking officiating again to send off Son, who’s tackle is just a yellow. Aurier hasn’t really done anything wrong either other than being there. Just cause there’s a very unfortunate injury doesn’t mean there’s a red card. They’ve cost us a win there. 

Everton the worst team we’ve played all season...and they could quite easily say the same about us. Two terrible teams devoid of confidence. 

Eriksen needs to never play for this club again. He’s stealing a living and should be exiled. Absolute prick.

No idea on handball as up the other end. Thought son was a pen in real time. 

Ugh not sure why I bother anymore though - football really isn’t enjoyable at the moment. 

TAD embarrassing himself again in this topic. Needs to stop the Sunday drinking 

What's your take on Spurs form since around March mate? You guys were flying through most of last season but then seemed to become afflicted by the inconsistency contagion at United, Arsenal and Chelsea towards the end of last season and don't seem to have really turned it around since then...

[Storts+]

10 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Truly a horrid match to watch. To be brutally honest my impression of Spurs was that there was very little threat of you creating anything until that shocking ball from Iwobi. We were no better isolating Richarlison up front to make sure we had you covered defensively and expecting him to pull off some Diego Costa type miracle work up top.

It was obvious from the start that both teams didn't want to risk too much because a draw would be seen as a 'safe' result for both teams in the context of their recent form.

I think we're in a similar boat, the quality is there and I feel for both teams you just need a bit of luck and momentum to get you going. There are no easy games in this league though so you have to make your own luck.

The Eriksen situation is a shit one. He doesn't seem to have a bad attitude on the pitch from a neutral perspective but I've not seen him play as often or paid as much attention to his body language as you. The noises coming from Poch and other sources seem to point to him wanting out. Perhaps the solution is indeed to do what Southampton did with Van Dijk and say fine, we will sell you, but only on our terms and in the meantime you train with the youth team.

Yeah, it was turgid.  Spurs without Kane is not enjoyable (despite certain sections of our support claiming we play better without him, we don't) and we had too many passengers in the team again.

I don't even think it was to do with risk if I'm being honest. I just don't think either team is very good right now. There's something missing, a spark, neither of us have it - and whilst we can get by in some games with extra quality - even the wins are hard to watch sometimes.

He has an awful attitude on the pitch - doesn't get stuck in at all, bottles every challenge, won't go up for headers, his passing has gone completely and just looks like he doesn't care. He wants to go, he's going to leave us on a free, and he should be frozen out. He's contributing nothing. I want players that want to play for us. Shouldn't be that much to ask

[Storts+]

Having watched back again this morning - the FA are opening a massive can of worms with this decision.

There is absolutely no way Son should have been sent off and now suspended for this incident. Are we now going to say that every tackle and every incident that causes major injury deserves a red card? I'm quickly falling out of love with football.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Storts said:

Having watched back again this morning - the FA are opening a massive can of worms with this decision.

There is absolutely no way Son should have been sent off and now suspended for this incident. Are we now going to say that every tackle and every incident that causes major injury deserves a red card? I'm quickly falling out of love with football.

I agree and Kilbane alluded to it on MOTD2.

It's just seriously unfortunate how Gomes got injured. It's reckless and cynical at best for Son and that means a yellow card. Kilbane or one of them on MOTD2 mentioned that Guendouzi last week on Zaha was just as cynical and reckless but was a booking. If Zaha gets seriously injured from it does it mean it's more than a yellow? 

It paves the way for literally any tackle potentially being a red card just because the the player could get severely injured. Which isn't right and I hope this incident doesn't set some kind of new bar or level on what constitutes a red card offence.

I don't get the calls for Aurier to be punished as well. His involvement in it is just part of the unfortunate nature of the whole incident. He's gone in to get the ball more innocently than Son has.

[RandoEFC+]

44 minutes ago, Storts said:

Having watched back again this morning - the FA are opening a massive can of worms with this decision.

There is absolutely no way Son should have been sent off and now suspended for this incident. Are we now going to say that every tackle and every incident that causes major injury deserves a red card? I'm quickly falling out of love with football.

I think we can all be in agreement that it wasn't worthy of a red card, but I do sympathise with the referee in that scenario. I might be wrong so I will stand corrected if so but I don't think it was awarded by VAR. Without seeing what happened, looking at the injury and Son's reaction and the full-on panic going on around the incident, it looked like Son's tackle had caused it, even Son himself seemed to think so, and I think to keep emotions under control, he has to produce a red card. Son was so upset by the incident that it was probably best for him to go off the pitch anyway even if it fucked Spurs over by going a man down. Aurier was the other player affected by it and was wisely subbed off as well.

It exposes another rule in football that just doesn't work in practice. Son tripped up Gomes which led to a horror injury, even though it was a freak injury, by definition, Son has "endangered an opponent" by tripping him up. But then what do we do? This is the greatest evidence you'll see that any tackle in football is potentially endangering an opponent, and we aren't going to give a red card for every little cynical trip like this because that's ridiculous. I've been trying to argue for a long time that a lot of the challenges we see that get classed as "dangerous" and "over the top of the ball" when they're actually just an inch or two off the ground and clearly going for the ball, shouldn't be automatic red cards, but that's the way the game's gone in the last few years.

This isn't the first time that a player has been punished for the consequences of his actions rather than his actual actions. It's very clear that if Son had done the same thing and Gomes hadn't had that horrible collision with Aurier, that he would only have been booked.

This phenomenon isn't limited to football either. Say you drive way over the speed limit in real life, a fairly minor offence relatively speaking, and get pulled over by the police, then you'll get a fine and some points on your license at worst. Do the exact same thing but a child runs across the road in front of you and ends up seriously hurt or killed, then suddenly you're looking at jail time. It's wrong and I don't agree with it, I've always thought you should punish the action over the unforeseen or unlikely circumstance, but that's been the world we live in for a long time.

Anyway, hopefully they review the decision and rescind the suspension.

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

I think we can all be in agreement that it wasn't worthy of a red card, but I do sympathise with the referee in that scenario. I might be wrong so I will stand corrected if so but I don't think it was awarded by VAR. Without seeing what happened, looking at the injury and Son's reaction and the full-on panic going on around the incident, it looked like Son's tackle had caused it, even Son himself seemed to think so, and I think to keep emotions under control, he has to produce a red card. Son was so upset by the incident that it was probably best for him to go off the pitch anyway even if it fucked Spurs over by going a man down. Aurier was the other player affected by it and was wisely subbed off as well.

It exposes another rule in football that just doesn't work in practice. Son tripped up Gomes which led to a horror injury, even though it was a freak injury, by definition, Son has "endangered an opponent" by tripping him up. But then what do we do? This is the greatest evidence you'll see that any tackle in football is potentially endangering an opponent, and we aren't going to give a red card for every little cynical trip like this because that's ridiculous. I've been trying to argue for a long time that a lot of the challenges we see that get classed as "dangerous" and "over the top of the ball" when they're actually just an inch or two off the ground and clearly going for the ball, shouldn't be automatic red cards, but that's the way the game's gone in the last few years.

This isn't the first time that a player has been punished for the consequences of his actions rather than his actual actions. It's very clear that if Son had done the same thing and Gomes hadn't had that horrible collision with Aurier, that he would only have been booked.

This phenomenon isn't limited to football either. Say you drive way over the speed limit in real life, a fairly minor offence relatively speaking, and get pulled over by the police, then you'll get a fine and some points on your license at worst. Do the exact same thing but a child runs across the road in front of you and ends up seriously hurt or killed, then suddenly you're looking at jail time. It's wrong and I don't agree with it, I've always thought you should punish the action over the unforeseen or unlikely circumstance, but that's been the world we live in for a long time.

Anyway, hopefully they review the decision and rescind the suspension.

This wasn't "any" tackle though. In fact it wasn't a tackle at all, it was a deliberate foul (probably with a touch of malice) and those always seem to be more dangerous than a genuine tackle. See this incident, see Choudhury on Salah, etc.

I go the other way on this, as I've said before. I think deliberate cynical fouls like that should always result in a red card, partly because of the increased risk, and partly because it's basically cheating. From my perspective, wherever you are on the pitch, if you deliberately bring someone down to stop a break, you're ultimately doing it to stop a goal. If you're the last man, you get sent off, but if we're arguing that people should be punished for their actions and not the context around it, why should it matter if you're the last man? The intent is the same

I don't think it would be ridiculous to do that at all - show one or two reds for shithousey little fouls like that and you'll quickly put a stop to it and football would be better as a result.

[RandoEFC+]

7 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

This wasn't "any" tackle though. In fact it wasn't a tackle at all, it was a deliberate foul (probably with a touch of malice) and those always seem to be more dangerous than a genuine tackle. See this incident, see Choudhury on Salah, etc.

I go the other way on this, as I've said before. I think deliberate cynical fouls like that should always result in a red card, partly because of the increased risk, and partly because it's basically cheating. From my perspective, wherever you are on the pitch, if you deliberately bring someone down to stop a break, you're ultimately doing it to stop a goal. If you're the last man, you get sent off, but if we're arguing that people should be punished for their actions and not the context around it, why should it matter if you're the last man? The intent is the same

I don't think it would be ridiculous to do that at all - show one or two reds for shithousey little fouls like that and you'll quickly put a stop to it and football would be better as a result.

Yeah, you're not the first person to take this point of view and I definitely could agree with it. I'm against having too many red cards though so I'd be reluctant to be the one to implement this rule.

[LFCMadLad]

Apply that logic and players like Graeme Souness, Steve McMahon and Roy Keane would never have existed. No wonder they all hate the game as it is today. 

What next... players have to carry around a pack of wet wipes incase they get mucky?

[DeadLinesman]

So are we showing reds for shirt pulling? It’s a shithouse tactic, just like a cynical leg up. Can’t start picking and choosing the level of our fouls gents.

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

Yeah, you're not the first person to take this point of view and I definitely could agree with it. I'm against having too many red cards though so I'd be reluctant to be the one to implement this rule.

I don't disagree about having too many red cards. I'm relying on the idea that making these fouls is a choice so the red card would act as a deterrent more than it would actually be used as a punishment.

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, Burning Gold said:

This wasn't "any" tackle though. In fact it wasn't a tackle at all, it was a deliberate foul (probably with a touch of malice) and those always seem to be more dangerous than a genuine tackle. See this incident, see Choudhury on Salah, etc.

City and Liverpool would be miles ahead of most on the cynical red cards then. There was a study (I’ll try and find it) on stopping opponents by niggly tactical fouls such as shirt tugging, trips etc that stop opponents breaking up field and I’m sure they were the two teams most penalised for this categorised foul.

[RandoEFC+]

5 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

City and Liverpool would be miles ahead of most on the cynical red cards then. There was a study (I’ll try and find it) on stopping opponents by niggly tactical fouls such as shirt tugging, trips etc that stop opponents breaking up field and I’m sure they were the two teams most penalised for this categorised foul.

It's been fairly well publicised that Pep's City staff actually researched the fouls that were least likely to get them yellow cards and practiced them in training even though they've denied it. No surprise that Fernandinho has a reputation for some of the most persistent fouling in the league without getting sent off. Not sure about Liverpool.

[Stan]

7 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

City and Liverpool would be miles ahead of most on the cynical red cards then. There was a study (I’ll try and find it) on stopping opponents by niggly tactical fouls such as shirt tugging, trips etc that stop opponents breaking up field and I’m sure they were the two teams most penalised for this categorised foul.

Yep, I remember that!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49371002

Man City, Burnley (no surprise with their physicality really) and Liverpool top 3

Liverpool 63.17% fouls in opposition half.
Burnley 60.28%
Man City 58.84%

[Stan]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

It's been fairly well publicised that Pep's City staff actually researched the fouls that were least likely to get them yellow cards and practiced them in training even though they've denied it. No surprise that Fernandinho has a reputation for some of the most persistent fouling in the league without getting sent off. Not sure about Liverpool.

Fabinho is probably the biggest culprit.

[DeadLinesman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49371002

The art of the ‘tactical’ foul. Found it quite interesting. Liverpool and City in the top 3 for fouls in opponents half and quickest fouls after losing the ball. Obviously there’s no category for individual foul types as such, but it does make you think.

[Cicero]

15 minutes ago, Stan said:

Fabinho is probably the biggest culprit.

Fernandinho 

[Stan]

16 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Fernandinho 

for Liverpool I meant

[Cicero]

7 minutes ago, Stan said:

for Liverpool I meant

Oh thought you meant in general. 

Fernandinho in the 2017/18 season got away with practically everything 

[Burning Gold]

Don't think that study really captures what I'm talking about, to be honest. Fouls in the opposition half certainly can be cynical, but they can also be completely innocent. Us and Man City are obviously likely to commit a lot of them because that's where most of the game is, we press high, and we counter press when we lose it. Also, attacking players aren't particularly good at making tackles, but often attempt them with a degree of enthusiasm as they sense a cheap opportunity to create a scoring chance, and there's less consequence to being beaten.

I'd actually expect the deliberate cynical foul to occur more in the fouling player's half as the attack needs time to develop to make it worth making that type of foul and taking the (inadequate) punishment of a yellow card. Hardly a representative sample, but the two examples from earlier (Son on Gomes, Choudhury on Salah) were both in the fouling player's half and seemed fairly typical of the type.