Administrator Stan Posted February 17, 2020 Administrator Share Posted February 17, 2020 Kick-off 20.00 VS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Spurs have been inconsistent but I still see them winning pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Inti Brian said: Spurs have been inconsistent but I still see them winning pretty easily. Spurs winning this easily? You clearly don't know much about RB Leipzig then. Bayern Munich who destroyed Spurs home and away, struggled at home in Munich against RB Leipzig the other week and were arguably second best. The match finished 0-0. Werner, Schick, Dani Olmo, Poulsen, Forsberg, Sabitzer, Nkunku, Wolf, Kampl, Adams, Haidara, Laimer, Upamecano, Konate, Klostermann, Halstenberg, Mukiele, Angelino, Orban, Lookman, Ampadu and one of the most improved goalkeepers in recent years Gulacsi. That is a team full of quality players, so if you think Spurs will find this tie easy, then you are really underestimating the team from Leipzig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I think this encounter will be very tough as both sides have quality. This is RB Leipzig's first ever appearance in the knockout stages of the Champions League. But if I had to choose a team between the two as to who I think is more likely to advance to the quarter finals, then I would probably pick RB Leipzig. But this tie is going to be very tough and it could go either way really, given the number of quality players that each team has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Inti Brian said: Spurs have been inconsistent but I still see them winning pretty easily. HUH?? You actually seen this Leipzig team? They are very good. It’s going to be a difficult tie for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Wasn't expecting my prediction to be so controversial Happy to be proven wrong, but German sides have been pretty terrible in Champions League the last few years and to be frank I don't expect any different this year. Even Leipzig weren't that convincing in their group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rucksackfranzose Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 30 minutes ago, Inti Brian said: Wasn't expecting my prediction to be so controversial Happy to be proven wrong, but German sides have been pretty terrible in Champions League the last few years and to be frank I don't expect any different this year. Even Leipzig weren't that convincing in their group. Interesting statement for someone, who always praises Serie A, since the Buli clubs gained more points in the Cl in the last 5 years than the Italian ones. But don't let facts influence your opinions. By the way which of these season's CL games Tottenham played convinced of them? Hope Red shite will be destroyed, though, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Interesting statement for someone, who always praises Serie A, since the Buli clubs gained more points in the Cl in the last 5 years than the Italian ones. But don't let facts influence your opinions. By the way which of these season's CL games Tottenham played convinced of them? Hope Red shite will be destroyed, though, I don't always praise Serie A sides though do I. All I said was I believe it to be better than the Bundesliga. Both league have issues, but thanks to a side not named Juve reaching the semis once in the last 7 years, Serie A wins for me. And as for Tottenham, they hired Mourinho near the end of the groups. Much different team. Seriously, no need to create controversy over a harmless opinion. I just don't rate the German league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 34 minutes ago, Inti Brian said: I don't always praise Serie A sides though do I. All I said was I believe it to be better than the Bundesliga. Both league have issues, but thanks to a side not named Juve reaching the semis once in the last 7 years, Serie A wins for me. And as for Tottenham, they hired Mourinho near the end of the groups. Much different team. Seriously, no need to create controversy over a harmless opinion. I just don't rate the German league A harmless opinion, proceeded by slagging off the German League. Well for what it's worth, I think it's quite clear that the Bundesliga is stronger than Serie A overall. It's just that you seem to have this bias fetish for the Italian League. I am sure that if you take every team in the Bundesliga and matched them up with their Italian counterparts in terms of their positions in their respective leagues, you will find that the Bundesliga sides would overwhelmingly win. In terms of strength, the Bundesliga sides as a whole are better than the Italian sides. Last season was a case in point with Frankfurt. We thrashed Lazio 6-2 over two legs and then we knocked out Inter Milan. Inter Milan and Lazio are top 4 clubs in Italy. Bayern would destroy every club in Italy over two legs and right now, I think that even Dortmund would beat any Italian club, (yes, Juve included) over two legs. So if you want to debate, lets use facts rather emotional preference. I am sure that if either of Bayern or Dortmund were in Serie A, that they would win the league. I couldn't necessarily say the same if they were placed in the English Premier League or the Spanish La Liga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Michael said: A harmless opinion, proceeded by slagging off the German League. I don't really know how I am "slagging off" the German league by saying politely that I don't rate it. I strongly disagree as well, but let's just leave it there. I've had this discussion multiple times. It's boring now to see how touchy people get over defending the Bundesliga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ Posted February 18, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, Inti Brian said: It's boring now to see how touchy people get over defending the Bundesliga. Yeah; kind of reminds me how some other people get touchy over defending Peru... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, nudge said: Yeah; kind of reminds me how some other people get touchy over defending Peru... Been a while since I've had to do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 29 minutes ago, Inti Brian said: I don't really know how I am "slagging off" the German league by saying politely that I don't rate it. I strongly disagree as well, but let's just leave it there. I've had this discussion multiple times. It's boring now to see how touchy people get over defending the Bundesliga. It's the fact that you are always praising the Italian League and yet you say that you don't rate the Bundesliga, when the evidence suggests that the Bundesliga is better than Serie A overall. There's a tad bit of hypocrisy there. If I have an opinion, I back it up. There are plenty of examples to suggest that the Bundesliga is better overall than Serie A. If we just look at the results between clubs from these leagues, if we look at who have the better players within each team and the quality of football actually played by these clubs, it's quite clear to see that the Bundesliga trumps Serie A. I am not one of those touchy people, nor am I defending the Bundesliga just for the sake of it, I am just being as objective as possible and pointing out what is quite clear. For starters, no Italian club comes close to matching the strength that Bayern have. Like I said, I'd even say that Dortmund are better than Juventus right now, even though Juve are still the best club in Italy. The fact that you don't rate RB Leipzig says a lot to me to be honest. Anyone who has watched Leipzig play(and they have many haters both inside and outside of Germany) would say that they are a quality side. I listed their players and it's obvious to see that they have a quality young squad. So don't accuse others of being emotional about defending the Bundesliga, when it is quite apparent that you defend Serie A because of your bias towards that league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Michael said: It's the fact that you are always praising the Italian League and yet you say that you don't rate the Bundesliga, when the evidence suggests that the Bundesliga is better than Serie A overall. There's a tad bit of hypocrisy there. If I have an opinion, I back it up. There are plenty of examples to suggest that the Bundesliga is better overall than Serie A. If we just look at the results between clubs from these leagues, who have the better players within each teams and the quality of football actually played by these clubs, it's quite clear to see that the Bundesliga trumps Serie A. I am not one of those touchy people, nor am I defending the Bundesliga just for the sake of it, I am just being as objective as possible and pointing out what is quite clear. For starters, no Italian club comes close to matching the strength that Bayern have. Like I said, I'd even say that Dortmund are better than Juventus right now, even though Juve are still the best club in Italy. The fact that you don't rate RB Leipzig says a lot to me to be honest. Anyone who has watched Leipzig play(and they have many haters both inside and outside of Germany) would say that they are a quality side. I listed their players and it's obvious to see that they have a quality young squad. So don't accuse others of being emotional about defending the Bundesliga, when it is quite apparent that you defend Serie A because of your bias towards that league. No hypocrisy my friend. If you want evidence just look at the amount of finals and semi finals between Bundesliga and Serie A since 2013. Juve, Napoli, Fiorentina, and Roma have made European semi-finals since them. Bundesliga only has Bayern and Frankfurt. I don't know how much more polite I needed to be. "Happy to be proven wrong" "I just don't rate the German League". Surely that was a sign to drop it there no? An "let's accept his opinion but not really care" situation. Instead I get 3 people attacking me. I don't rate leagues based on what I see on domestic basis. For me its their records and performances in continental competition that matters. That's the point of the competition. The facts are that Serie A clubs have gone further consistently since the Bundesliga peaked back in 2013. Then I would have comfortably said the German league was better. Now? Nope. And I don't defend the Serie A. I literally wasn't even the first person to mention it in this thread, in case you haven't noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 43 minutes ago, Inti Brian said: No hypocrisy my friend. If you want evidence just look at the amount of finals and semi finals between Bundesliga and Serie A since 2013. Juve, Napoli, Fiorentina, and Roma have made European semi-finals since them. Bundesliga only has Bayern and Frankfurt. I don't know how much more polite I needed to be. "Happy to be proven wrong" "I just don't rate the German League". Surely that was a sign to drop it there no? An "let's accept his opinion but not really care" situation. Instead I get 3 people attacking me. I don't rate leagues based on what I see. For me its their records in continental competition that matters. That's the point of the competition. The facts are that Serie A clubs have gone further consistently since the Bundesliga peaked back in 2013. Then I would have comfortably said the German league was better. Now? Nope. And I don't defend the Serie A. I literally wasn't even the first person to mention it in this thread, in case you haven't noticed. The German clubs have done better in Europe than the Serie A clubs have done in Europe in recent years and as mentioned by Rucksackfranzose, the points gained by Bundesliga clubs over the last 5 years prove this. The coefficient ratings are evidence of this. You are the kind of guy who probably thinks that Juventus are better than Bayern or Dortmund because Juve reached the quarter finals of the Champions League last season while Bayern and Dortmund reached the round of 16. You would probably fail to notice that both Bayern and Dortmund got defeated by Liverpool and Spurs, the two finalists and the two best teams of last seasons Champions League. The only other Italian side to qualify from their Champions League groups last season were Roma and they lost to Porto. The same Porto side that went on to get thrashed by Liverpool 6-1 on aggregate in the semi finals! Yes, I am sure we will see this season how the German and Italian sides perform. Bayern are overwhelming favourites against Chelsea, RB Leipzig are slight favourites in my book against Spurs, while Dortmund do have the toughest task against PSG, no doubt about that. But they still have a chance of going through, given that both sides have a lot of quality. I guess it will be a case of who takes their chances best in those two legs, because there will be loads of chances created. As for the Italian teams, I think Valencia will probably get the better of Atalanta. Barcelona are most likely going to quite easily get the better of Napoli, even though Barca don't like playing against defensive sides. Juve should get the better of an injury stricken Lyon team, but in all honesty, I wouldn't be wholly surprised if Lyon got a shock result against them. By the way, I am not attacking you, I don't attack people, that's what bullies do and I despise bullies. I am merely pointing out something which is evidentially obvious. For you to rate the Serie A and not rate the Bundesliga says a lot to me. For you to not rate RB Leipzig, also says quite a lot to me. No credible person who objectively watches the Bundesliga and Serie A would come to the conclusions that you have come to. Yes, I think that overall, the Bundesliga sides are better than the Serie A sides. But I still rate Serie A even though I think that the Bundesliga is clearly a stronger league. Maybe if Bayern or Dortmund faced Juve in the Champions League, that would clear things up for you. God knows I hope that Atalanta don't draw Bayern, Dortmund or even the young RB Leipzig team if they squeeze past Valencia, because I can tell you now, it's very likely that they would get a real thrashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Michael said: The German clubs have done better in Europe than the Serie A clubs have done in Europe in recent years and as mentioned by Rucksackfranzose, the points gained by Bundesliga clubs over the last 5 years prove this. The coefficient ratings prove this. You are the kind of guy who probably thinks that Juventus are better than Bayern or Dortmund because Juve reached the quarter finals of the Champions League last season while Bayern and Dortmund reached the round of 16. You would probably fail to notice that both Bayern and Dortmund got defeated by Liverpool and Spurs, the two finalists and the two best teams of last seasons Champions League. The amount of points in CL mean fuck all if you don't make it far in the competition. I get it's a cup competition and works differently to a league, but if you have 2 semi-finalists since 2013 compared to Italy's 5, chances are Italian clubs are better. It's how the competition works. Everything else is hypothetical. 8 minutes ago, Michael said: By the way, I am not attacking you, I don't attack people, that's what bullies do and I despise bullies. I am merely pointing out something which is evidentially obvious. For you to rate the Serie A and not rate the Bundesliga says a lot to me. For you to not rate RB Leipzig, also says quite a lot to me. No credible person who objectively watches the Bundesliga and Serie A would come to the conclusions that you have come to. Yes, I think that overall, the Bundesliga sides are better than the Serie A sides. But I still rate Serie A even though I think that the Bundesliga is clearly a stronger league. That's fine, but let's not jump into things I never said or conspiracy theories. "You defend Serie A too much" when I haven't mentioned Serie A once in this thread until it was finally brought up to me and before this said once in over a year. And I strongly disagree with the notion that you can't watch the Bundesliga and Serie A and decide one is better than the other. For me, Brazilian league looks way higher standard than Ligue 1, but it clearly isn't a better league. Domestic performances don't tell you anything. The eye can be deceiving. If you don't perform on an international scale, then you aren't good. Simple. otherwise it's a "this league is better because I said so" situation. Bundesliga and Serie A both have their issues, but the latter is much more conservative and uglier football compared to the fun and fast paced football in Germany. However, more Serie A sides have done better in Europe and not against mugs either. Roma beating Barcelona? Napoli smashing Wolfsburg in their own home? (a bloody good Wolfsburg side too). Literally the only example I can think of an Italian side getting a lucky run in a continental competition is Fiorentina in 2015. Anyhow, as I said I'm happy to be proven wrong and maybe what I said is outdated if the 3 German clubs do well this year, but 2014-2019 at the very least Serie A trumps Bundesliga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Interesting statement for someone, who always praises Serie A, since the Buli clubs gained more points in the Cl in the last 5 years than the Italian ones. But don't let facts influence your opinions. By the way which of these season's CL games Tottenham played convinced of them? Hope Red shite will be destroyed, though, Does that count points from knockout rounds and groups, or just the group stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Inti Brian said: The amount of points in CL mean fuck all if you don't make it far in the competition. I get it's a cup competition and works differently to a league, but if you have 2 semi-finalists since 2013 compared to Italy's 5, chances are Italian clubs are better. It's how the competition works. Everything else is hypothetical. That's fine, but let's not jump into things I never said or conspiracy theories. "You defend Serie A too much" when I haven't mentioned Serie A once in this thread until it was finally brought up to me and before this said once in over a year. And I strongly disagree with the notion that you can't watch the Bundesliga and Serie A and decide one is better than the other. For me, Brazilian league looks way higher standard than Ligue 1, but it clearly isn't a better league. Domestic performances don't tell you anything. The eye can be deceiving. If you don't perform on an international scale, then you aren't good. Simple. otherwise it's a "this league is better because I said so" situation. Bundesliga and Serie A both have their issues, but the latter is much more conservative and uglier football compared to the fun and fast paced football in Germany. However, more Serie A sides have done better in Europe and not against mugs either. Roma beating Barcelona? Napoli smashing Wolfsburg in their own home? (a bloody good Wolfsburg side too). Literally the only example I can think of an Italian side getting a lucky run in a continental competition is Fiorentina in 2015. Anyhow, as I said I'm happy to be proven wrong and maybe what I said is outdated if the 3 German clubs do well this year, but 2014-2019 at the very least Serie A trumps Bundesliga. No, actually I beg to differ. The amount of points gained do mean a lot, it's a sign of how all the clubs from a particular country are doing in Europe. Are you saying that a League that has one club that reaches the semi finals of a European competition is better than another league that had 3 or 4 teams reach the quarter finals of that same European competition? We are not analysing the success of just one team here, otherwise the French League would have an argument about being the best league in the world. Furthermore, your cut off point of the 2013 season and using semi finals as your yardstick is quite amusing. It's funny how you use the examples of Napoli and Fiorentina in the Europa League to make your point. Napoli and Fiorentina both reached the semi final of the Europa League way back in the 2014/15 season, that was ages ago, you might as well count the 2013 season where the German clubs had 2 teams in the final of the Champions League if you are going that far back! More to the point, Napoli lost to little Dnipro of Ukraine in that semi final while Fiorentina got destroyed 5-0 on aggregate by Seville! But what I find most disingenuous with how you quantify the quality of the leagues is the following fact. There have been NO Italian side after that one season(the 2014/15 season) that have reached the semi finals of the Europa League, in fact there hasn't been a single Italian side that have gone as far as the semis in the Europa League(excluding that one 2014/15 season) since 2007/08 season!! Yes, ZERO!! Meanwhile there have been plenty of Bundesliga sides that have reached the semi finals in that period. Just to correct you again, there were not 5 Italian teams that have reached the semi finals in the time period you are talking about, there are only 4 teams. If you are talking about overall Bundesliga team appearances in the semi finals of European competitions, then it is more than just 2 semi finalist appearances in that time frame for the Bundesliga sides, so lets at least get the facts right please, even if you are measuring all this by your own yardstick. I think that you can definitely see to a certain extent, the quality of football being played in front of you. There are many different factors involved of course, but in general I can tell a match being played at a high level when I see it. If I see a Premier League side play, I can definitely see the difference in quality compared to an English League 1 side for example. Even the Premier League sides near the bottom play at a much higher level than the best clubs in League 1. For me when I watch the Bundesliga, I see a much higher pace of game being place than in Serie A. Yes, Serie A is more tactical, but the game there is much more slower. Stamina and the pace at which you play the game are key factors in today's game. One of the things that Serie A sides have traditionally liked to concentrate on, is defending well. Having a well organised defence, I have always thought is well suited to knockout competitions. But only a few Italian sides, namely Juve, have really succeeded in Europe in recent years. But more to the point, it's not just the superior tempo and work rate of the Bundesliga sides that is impressive, it's also the quality of players that they have in the teams. Even if you look at the sides down at the bottom of the Bundesliga such as Mainz or Werder Bremen, you will see their side full of highly rated youngsters from around Europe, many of whom we will probably see playing a key part for their countries at the upcoming Euros. Compare them to clubs like SPAL, Brescia and even Sassulo and the difference in quality is quite apparent. The calibre of players at these German clubs are definitely superior overall. Lets not go to the top of the table and compare Bayern and Dortmund to Juve and Lazio please or even Juve and Inter. Fair enough, Juve actually do have a strong squad and they have depth. But I still think that Bayern trump them with relative ease and Dortmund would as well. The other top Italian sides, Lazio and Inter...no chance. Inter have a very good strike force, they have a good defence and Handanovic is a great goalie, but their midfield is very mediocre compared to the other elite teams in my opinion. Lazio are not much changed from when Frankfurt beat Lazio 6-2 on aggregate last season in Europe, enough said!! I disagree as well with your suggestion that Italian clubs haven't been lucky. I think that many Italian sides have had relatively easy draws in Europe over the last 6 years and even then they have failed on many occasions. I can also say that German sides have had many tough draws as well. At the end of the day, it's about the number of clubs that go the furthest in Europe and not any one club, if we are comparing leagues, with club performances in Europe. If one Italian club reaches a European semi final, but all the other Italian sides got knocked out in the group stage, I wouldn't say that the Italian League is better than the Bundesliga if the Bundesliga had say 3 or 4 teams that reached the quarter finals. On the contrary, logic would dictate that the Bundesliga sides are probably better as a whole in such a situation. Lastly, an important point I'd like to point out. Just look at the leading scorers in Serie A! This season it's Ciro Immobile, the player who absolutely flopped at Dortmund and at Seville! While 35 year old Ronaldo is in second place in the scoring charts. Last season it was 37 year old Fabio Quagliarella who finished as leading scorer! With 28 year old Duvan Zapata second on the scorers charts, the man who at 28 years old has only 15 caps for Colombia and only 3 goals. Young Piatek finished 3rd on the list, in his debut season in Italy, despite changing clubs in mid season. Piatek was banging them in with ease for lowly and struggling Genoa who finished 17th in the league! 34 year old Ronaldo finished in 4th place. This is a trend that has happened for a while in Serie A, even Luca Toni at 37 was the leading scorer in Serie A back in 2015 and he and Immobile were the leading scorers in the season prior to that as well! My point is, that it is much easier to score in Serie A than it is in the Bundesliga. You would never get a player like Immobile or players at 37 like Quagliarella or Luca Toni leading the scoring charts. No, it's undisputed world class players like Lewandowski, Timo Werner, Sancho who top the scoring charts, or Aubameyang a few seasons back before he joined Arsenal. There is no comparison between the quality of these players and the likes of Immobile and Zapata or the oldies Quagliarella and Luca Toni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 47 minutes ago, Harry said: Does that count points from knockout rounds and groups, or just the group stages? Yes, it counts points from the knockout rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said: Interesting statement for someone, who always praises Serie A, since the Buli clubs gained more points in the Cl in the last 5 years than the Italian ones. But don't let facts influence your opinions. By the way which of these season's CL games Tottenham played convinced of them? Hope Red shite will be destroyed, though, Bayern are not going to get destroyed by Chelsea, not in your wildest dreams. It's going to take a team like Liverpool, they could possibly knock them out, just as they did last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpache Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just for the record, my point was Serie A between 2014-2019. I’m not setting arbitrary rules to prove my point. If the 3 German sides can prove me wrong then I’ll happily admit I’m out of date. Frankfurt surprised me last season and BVB look stronger than in other years so the league could perhaps be getting better but right now they need to show it first before saying anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 24 minutes ago, Inti Brian said: Just for the record, my point was Serie A between 2014-2019. I’m not setting arbitrary rules to prove my point. If the 3 German sides can prove me wrong then I’ll happily admit I’m out of date. Frankfurt surprised me last season and BVB look stronger than in other years so the league could perhaps be getting better but right now they need to show it first before saying anything. Yes, I know your point was between 2014-2019 and I questioned why that was the case. Anyway mate, you are entitled to your opinion. I just think it's all about the overall performance and the quality of the players within the side as a whole, that determines the strength of a team/squad. There's plenty more football to be played this season, so lets all enjoy and see how the teams continue to perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rucksackfranzose Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Harry said: Does that count points from knockout rounds and groups, or just the group stages? Both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True Blue Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 This might me a very open and high scoring game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted February 18, 2020 Author Administrator Share Posted February 18, 2020 Son is out for a few weeks so is likely to miss both legs. Could affect Spurs quite a bit as he was getting back in to form after his suspension deputising for Kane. Lucas Moura up front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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