Everton 1-3 Bournemouth - Sunday 26th July, 2020

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

He hasn't had a transfer window yet has he? You're not the first person with this very strange take on things but you can tell it only comes from people who don't watch us regularly. He has gone on and on about our mentality and our ambition not being good enough and he's right. We have some technically capable footballers but they are absolute cowards. You can see it in everything they do, they'll pass the ball and the responsibility sideways instead of taking a risk and getting on the front foot, they'll avoid making forward runs or taking a player on with the ball because if they lose it they'll have to recover it themselves and they're happy to post a 6/10 by doing nothing instead of getting singled out for making a mistake. They have no standards and don't look remotely arsed about Bournemouth doing the double over them because why would they? Players like Sigurdsson, Delph and Schneiderlin have had their peak. They're not going to go above Everton in future and they're earning enough and have been handed long enough contracts that they don't have to fight for their livelihood either, it's a shambles, the club remains poisoned by our bad decisions off the pitch for multiple seasons. There are obviously exceptions to this description but I'm describing a core group in this squad.

We need a manager like Ancelotti right now even if he's no expert rebuilder, because he knows what an elite player looks like, not just their ability but their mentality and their approach to their job. He can tell the difference between who is going through the motions and who actually has a desire to better themselves and the team. Too many of these players have hidden behind Martinez, Silva, Allardyce and even Koeman because our fans and our board were always able to look at the club and be unsure whether it was the players or the manager who weren't good enough to get in the top six or whatever. You can't do that with a man who has won the Premier League and Champions League as the manager.

I hope all goes well mate. 

 

All I see is it ending in tears again. 

[RandoEFC+]

I get what you're both saying to an extent but looking at Everton and thinking Ancelotti is the problem is like looking at the Earth and thinking it's flat. Trust me, I've been watching every minute of these shithouses for too many years. They've had enough excuses made for them. Shape up or fuck off because all the goodwill is gone.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

I get what you're both saying to an extent but looking at Everton and thinking Ancelotti is the problem is like looking at the Earth and thinking it's flat. Trust me, I've been watching every minute of these shithouses for too many years. They've had enough excuses made for them. Shape up or fuck off because all the goodwill is gone.

I dont think Ancelotti is the problem mate.. i just dont think he is the man to sort out your problems. 

This is all alien to him.

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, LFCMadLad said:

I dont think Ancelotti is the problem mate.. i just dont think he is the man to sort out your problems. 

This is all alien to him.

So what? Should have gone for Moyes instead? Kept Silva? We've just finished 12th, we have several players earning close to 100k with years left on their contract and no resale value, including players like Bolasie, Sandro and Tosun who everyone has forgotten existed, we've harpooned three separate managers' efforts to build a career in the Premier League and we were on the brink of violating FFP before Covid pushed back the deadline. Who are we going to attract that will solve all our problems? There were no better options at the time than Ancelotti and even if he doesn't fix everything he at least brings enough experience and authority to the table to exorcise the garbage from the squad.

It's Everton, of course it's going to end in tears. That's what we do.

[Smiley Culture]

Enough internet for me tonight. You’ve got people slagging off Ancelotti because he’s a serial winner. 

Everton are crap because they’ve had woeful recruitment for the past 5-6 years. Nothing to do with Ancelotti. 

[LFCMadLad]

16 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Enough internet for me tonight. You’ve got people slagging off Ancelotti because he’s a serial winner. 

Everton are crap because they’ve had woeful recruitment for the past 5-6 years. Nothing to do with Ancelotti. 

I dont think anyone has slagged Ancelotti off have they?

Maybe said he might not be the best man for a rebuilding job perhaps?

Very good manger at a club already established in my opinion. 

[Cicero]

I’ve slagged him off countless times 

[RandoEFC+]

Just seems that some people need to have a contrary opinion here and there so they can say I told you so if they turn out to be right. He was managing Juventus 20 years ago and hasn't taken a non-elite club job since, I don't imagine many people on here were old enough and took a keen enough interest in Italian football in the late 1990s to judge the green shoots of his managerial career. He hasn't had a job like Everton this century so there's no evidence for or against any hypothesis that he's not cut out for the job. He hasn't signed a player yet ffs. The whole thing falls apart the second you ask anyone who we should have got instead.

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Just seems that some people need to have a contrary opinion here and there so they can say I told you so if they turn out to be right. He was managing Juventus 20 years ago and hasn't taken a non-elite club job since, I don't imagine many people on here were old enough and took a keen enough interest in Italian football in the late 1990s to judge the green shoots of his managerial career. He hasn't had a job like Everton this century so there's no evidence for or against any hypothesis that he's not cut out for the job. He hasn't signed a player yet ffs. The whole thing falls apart the second you ask anyone who we should have got instead.

Fair enough mate. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Everything @RandoEFC has said is sort of an echo of everything all the Everton fans I know (at least all the same ones) have to say about their club this season.

I think it’s hard to judge Ancelotti on this current squad. And when he starts actually getting to change the squad, who knows how it goes as he’s never really been asked to make a club turn the corner like he’s being asked at Everton. Except being asked to turn the corner into beating Juve to the Serie A title with Napoli (or win the CL with him).

[DeadLinesman]

9 hours ago, Cicero said:

I said this the moment they appointed him. 

It's the very reason why I don't rate Ancelotti among the very best. 

Do you rate Guardiola? Genuine question. Because the very reason you don’t rate Ancelotti should be the very reason wouldn’t rate Guardiola either?

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, DeadLinesman said:

Do you rate Guardiola? Genuine question. Because the very reason you don’t rate Ancelotti should be the very reason wouldn’t rate Guardiola either?

I dont rate Guardiola amongst the very best. He's certainly not fit to lace Klopp's boots. Pep is literally shit scared of Klopp.

[The Artful Dodger]

Ancelotti actually took over a Milan side in chaos, of course Milan are world giant but he still took them on in difficult circumstances. It's more kudos to Ancelotti that he has taken the Everton job, if he succeeds then he will surely be back in the greatest manager debate because a lot of managers with his CV wouldn't go near it, although I'm sure his wages played a part.

I do worry though, Everton seem to be able throw money around and not make anything stick. There is something rotten ingrained in the mentality there, their away record at the the 'big 6' is absolutely embarrassing. They need to go and beat someone decent away from home next season, that would be a start.

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Ancelotti actually took over a Milan side in chaos, of course Milan are world giant but he still took them on in difficult circumstances. It's more kudos to Ancelotti that he has taken the Everton job, if he succeeds then he will surely be back in the greatest manager debate because a lot of managers with his CV wouldn't go near it, although I'm sure his wages played a part.

I do worry though, Everton seem to be able throw money around and not make anything stick. There is something rotten ingrained in the mentality there, their away record at the the 'big 6' is absolutely embarrassing. They need to go and beat someone decent away from home next season, that would be a start.

The mentality is the issue. Whenever this squad have an excuse not to win, they just accept it. Any game where you could say that in that single game, a defeat would be understandable, it happens, whether that be away games against the top six or even just teams in better form, if we've got injuries or suspensions, if we get a bad decision go against us, if it's a game like yesterday where the other team has something to play for and need to win more than us, then we just seem to shrug and roll over. The only time these players look arsed is when they run out of excuses which is why we never reach the properly inexcusable lows of losing 4-5 games in a row or getting dragged into the depths of the bottom half.

It's also worth mentioning that these games behind closed doors have made a myth of the Goodison crowd being a hindrance to our performances. We won 1 of our 5 home games since the restart, that one coming against Leicester and we were battered for most of the game. Our fans give our players a lot of shit at Goodison because if they don't, the players are happy to spend 90 minutes shirking responsibility, passing sideways and showing no intent to get stuck into the opposition. If anything, it looks like that pressure from the crowd has actually forced them into grinding out more results at home, not less. Without our fans in the stadium, this current crop of Everton players have allowed Goodison to become an easy place to come rather than the bear pit it used to be when Moyes was manager.

[Cicero]

8 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Do you rate Guardiola? Genuine question. Because the very reason you don’t rate Ancelotti should be the very reason wouldn’t rate Guardiola either?

Guardiola's football revolutionised the game. He's been able to adapt his philosophy in three different leagues now successfully. His philosophy of the game does not only bring success, it's sustainable. Ancelotti managed us, PSG, Real, and Bayern. Four clubs who arguably had the biggest transfer kitty in their league, yet was sacked given his football and management isn't cut out for a sustainable period. 

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid. Three clubs renowned in world football for being good places to build something long term and sustainable of course. All of the other elite managers who went their managed to succeed where Ancelotti didn... oh wait.

[Cicero]

22 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid. Three clubs renowned in world football for being good places to build something long term and sustainable of course. All of the other elite managers who went their managed to succeed where Ancelotti didn... oh wait.

We are not talking about other managers, we are talking about Guardiola.

Barca/Bayern/City are all three jobs with high amounts of pressure and yet Pep's football has built them stability. Ancelotti has had 4 high profile jobs after Milan and crumbled the second season given his inability to adjust tactically when things turn sour, in spite having the largest transfer kitty in the league. 

The notion 'Chequebook manager' is a bit of a misconception given it only benefits managers that have actually built a sustainable foundation within the team. 

[DeadLinesman]

58 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Guardiola's football revolutionised the game. He's been able to adapt his philosophy in three different leagues now successfully. His philosophy of the game does not only bring success, it's sustainable. Ancelotti managed us, PSG, Real, and Bayern. Four clubs who arguably had the biggest transfer kitty in their league, yet was sacked given his football and management isn't cut out for a sustainable period. 

 

 

Mad lad said “He has never had a job where his team is shite and needs rebuilding, hence why he has not improved Everton one bit since he arrived.“ and you said that’s why I don’t rate him. Forgive me, but Guardiola has taken over the best or second best team 3 times. He’s never had a job where the team was shite or needed rebuilding because they were already winners.
 

PSG, Madrid and Chelsea also happen to be 3 of the most unstable clubs in world football over the past 10 years. The foundations at Bayern were set well before Guardiola and City had also won the league around the time he arrived (with the biggest chequebook). Barcelona were always one of the big two in Spain. His next job will be PSG, without a doubt. 

[Cicero]

Just now, DeadLinesman said:

Mad lad said “He has never had a job where his team is shite and needs rebuilding, hence why he has not improved Everton one bit since he arrived.“ and you said that’s why I don’t rate him. Forgive me, but Guardiola has taken over the best or second best team 3 times. Now you’re changing your reasoning.

You  have to look at that first season at Barca.

Barca were trophy-less for the second year running + finished 3rd and 20 points behind Real the season prior to Pep's arrival. The side fundamentally built around Ronaldinho and Deco, Pep decided to sell both of them, which was ridiculous at the time. Pep completely changed their tactics, gave both Messi and Iniesta more integral roles, had Xavi the focal point of their build up, trusted academy products in Busquets and Pique, and fundamentally implemented a philosophy that revolutionised the game and brought out the best in his players. He then took this same philosophy to two different leagues and found the same success given its proven to be sustainable. 

 

[DeadLinesman]

14 minutes ago, Cicero said:

You  have to look at that first season at Barca.

Barca were trophy-less for the second year running + finished 3rd and 20 points behind Real the season prior to Pep's arrival. The side fundamentally built around Ronaldinho and Deco, Pep decided to sell both of them, which was ridiculous at the time. Pep completely changed their tactics, gave both Messi and Iniesta more integral roles, had Xavi the focal point of their build up, trusted academy products in Busquets and Pique, and fundamentally implemented a philosophy that revolutionised the game and brought out the best in his players. He then took this same philosophy to two different leagues and found the same success given its proven to be sustainable. 

 

Whilst it’s admirable, the emergence of Messi as pretty much the greatest player to have ever played the game didn’t exactly hinder him, plus he’s always been able to spend. My point was that there’s a million factors that build success, but always being at a top team helps. He’s never managed a mediocre side. City finished how many points behind Liverpool this season? They’re hardly shite are they? Even taking the Man Utd job right now isn’t taking utter shite and a total rebuild on. That’s exactly what Everton are right now. Barcelona just needed tweaking. The players were already there to be fair. Having the money to add helps. He’s wasted millions on a terrible defence at City.

[The Artful Dodger]

33 minutes ago, Cicero said:

You  have to look at that first season at Barca.

Barca were trophy-less for the second year running + finished 3rd and 20 points behind Real the season prior to Pep's arrival. The side fundamentally built around Ronaldinho and Deco, Pep decided to sell both of them, which was ridiculous at the time. Pep completely changed their tactics, gave both Messi and Iniesta more integral roles, had Xavi the focal point of their build up, trusted academy products in Busquets and Pique, and fundamentally implemented a philosophy that revolutionised the game and brought out the best in his players. He then took this same philosophy to two different leagues and found the same success given its proven to be sustainable. 

 

Milan were in a similar position to Barcelona when Ancelotti took them over, chaos and he stabilised them and made them successful. The league state gets thrown out him but let’s not forget that Serie A was the best in the world back then. I also thought the football Chelsea played in 09-10 was superb, the best I’ve seen you play as a top side. Whether Everton proves beyond him remains to be seen but I think you’re a bit harsh on him.

 

[RandoEFC+]

We're probably beyond the help of anyone to be fair.

[Cicero]

1 hour ago, DeadLinesman said:

Whilst it’s admirable, the emergence of Messi as pretty much the greatest player to have ever played the game didn’t exactly hinder him, plus he’s always been able to spend. My point was that there’s a million factors that build success, but always being at a top team helps. He’s never managed a mediocre side. City finished how many points behind Liverpool this season? They’re hardly shite are they? Even taking the Man Utd job right now isn’t taking utter shite and a total rebuild on. That’s exactly what Everton are right now. Barcelona just needed tweaking. The players were already there to be fair. Having the money to add helps. He’s wasted millions on a terrible defence at City.

Guardiola is essentially the reason why Messi developed into the player he is today. Go back 12 years and pretend it was Mourinho that got the Barca job instead of Pep. You think a manager who emphasises on defensive structure, work rate and counter attacking play would get the best out of a 20 year old who sits at 15-17 goals a season and thrives in an attacking set up? Iniesta didn't even have an integral role for Barcelona before Pep and Deco was always the man to lead the midfield, not Xavi. 

City lost Kompany and had Laporte out 3/4 of the season tbf. Not to mention they lost Sane who I consider their best winger. They've already won everything domestically. Keeping the players hungry and mentally sharp was always going to be difficult, especially against the greatest Liverpool side in the PL era. They still finished second, won the league cup and are still considered among the favorites for the CL.

Most importantly, and this essentially my entire point, there are zero signs that show a weakness in Pep's football that can't be fixed with personnel. His football is sustainable. With Ancelotti, when things got sour there were no positive signs and he looked lost tactically. This has happened on 4 separate occasions and on every one there were signs of complacency.

46 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Milan were in a similar position when Ancelotti took them over, chaos and he stabilised them and made them successful. The league state gets thrown out him but let’s not forget that Serie A was the best in the world back then. I also thought the football Chelsea played in 09-10 was superb, the best I’ve seen you play as a top side. Whether Everton proves beyond him remains to be seen but I think you’re a bit harsh on him.

 

There's no denying his success at Milan, however his inability to manage both the league and CL was glaring, which was odd given the quality he had at his disposal. 

The 09-10 season, Ancelotti essentially milked every last drop our spine had. The football was great but we dropped an absurd amount of points throughout the season. Circumstances also benefited us massively given United lost Ronaldo and Tevez ( and yet we only won the league by 1 point on the last day) and managed to avoid all the top clubs during our run in the FA Cup and faced a relegated Portsmouth in the final. Grateful for that season, but context can't be ignored. 

The second season Ancelotti just looked clueless.  He didn't change anything tactically and merely hoped things worked out itself by playing the same players and system over and over again. There were no positive signs and nothing indicating he could be trusted to build a side given he actually convinced the club for Torres over Aguero, a decision which stalled us for half a decade to battle for the league.  

[LFCMadLad]

To be fair, we have benefitted from having the best manager in the world bar none. 

He's not bad for a glorified chearleader as some used to say.

[LFCMike]

13 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Everything @RandoEFC has said is sort of an echo of everything all the Everton fans I know (at least all the same ones) have to say about their club this season.

I think it’s hard to judge Ancelotti on this current squad. And when he starts actually getting to change the squad, who knows how it goes as he’s never really been asked to make a club turn the corner like he’s being asked at Everton. Except being asked to turn the corner into beating Juve to the Serie A title with Napoli (or win the CL with him).

I'm not sure how much change he's going to be able to make to be honest. If I'm not mistaken, Ancelotti and the players have taken wage deferrals for a period of three months? Also reports that they've just borrowed more money against future revenue. That surely points to little or no transfer budget