American Politics Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Is every Christian far right?  America is a secular state,  religious values may determine public policy,  but the Church does not rule.   It is not far right to consider the moral implication of abortion up to child birth,  but that a rational balance is needed ergo like 99% of the world the mean average is 12 weeks abortion is permitted on the consent of the mother,  after that it requires a medical professional to determine whether abortion is necessary based on rational factors such as health of the mother,  health of the child.    these are not Christian values they are just western moral values.   

Pro-Authoritarian,  I would say the current regime is very pro authoritarian,  political persecution and weaponization police and justice system against wrong think and trying to imprison and then kill a political opponent is all the kind of things that will make Vlad proud. 

I would say that about 80% of america whether democrat or republican are still very normal and not pushed to either extreme,  most will be Judeo/christian nuclear families that want simple things like safety,  liberty which is constrained in a Bill of Rights and rule of Law. 

1.) No not every Christian is far right - but Christian Nationalists are far right, that's not exactly difficult to understand. Christian Nationalists are an enemy of any secular country, as they believe in the internal politics of a society being governed by Christianity first and foremost.

That view isn't any less radical than fundamentalist Muslims wanting to govern with Islam first and foremost. And in a secular society like the US, they are an enemy.

2.) Trump's criminal trials aren't political prosecutions. In New York he was found guilty of fraud - that's not even in any way connected to the fedearl government and has fuck all to do with Joe Biden. His federal crimes were related to: 1.) calling Georgia's secretary of state and commanding him to "find the votes" to change the result of an election; 2.) improper handling of classified documents... you know, the same shit that he would have crowds of knuckle draggers chanting "lock her up" at Clinton for.

He's not even been sentenced and he's likely not going to be sentenced. He's still free, running for political office. Furthermore, he's been granted basic immunity by his own "deep state" the unelected officials that he's given lifetime appointments to.

And I think a registered republican who had Trump signs in his front yard shooting at Trump doesn't really count as "trying to kill a political opponent" - it seems like the Trump-Epstein news was enough to make someone told numerous times to "shoot their local pedo" to go find the highest profile pedo that was around him at the time.

But sure, the democrats are the true radicals with their things like: wanting to maintain America's longstanding tradition of freedom of religion. They are authoritarians for wanting rule of law to apply to even those who loudly shouted "law and order" as they violated as many laws as they could in 4 years - not the guy saying "I want to be a dictator" "I have great respect for Putin/Xi/Kim Jong" and "term limits shouldn't apply to me." Have I got that right?

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, OrangeKhrush said:

It is called the rainbow nation for a reason,

[RandoEFC+]

Unelected bureaucrats.... did I walk into some sort of Brexit Bingo thread here?

[OrangeKhrush]

4 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

At the bolded part, you're aware the values of the so called western world are pretty much based on this world's historical moral values deriving  from their religion and therefore Christianity? That alone should make your statement these weren't Christian values doubtful.

Western values are what they are because of judeo/christian foundations

[OrangeKhrush]

7 minutes ago, Spike said:

A state isn’t secular when religion is indirectly and directly determines policy. ‘In God We Trust’ and watchmaker analogy founding fathers, how is the USA secular?

The Church does not determine or make Law, it doesn't regulate administrative action and it doesn't act as the Judiciary.   You don't have to believe in a God to know that. 

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

It is called the rainbow nation for a reason,  South Africa has a strong appreciation of our history,  even if that came with struggles.   We have a national anthem with 12 different languages,  we have preservation sites that secure customs and traditions of all from Ndebele, Siswati, Zulu to Afrikaner,  preserved because history is important to learn from.   

Yes we have African nationalists and Afrikaner nationalist however neither hold any significant power.  We have problems but moved on from that,  we have what is quoted as the best written Constitution and Bill of Rights document,  we have an independent judiciary and an independent electoral commission that exercise their scope beyond fear or favour from the executive and legislature.    We also have one of the best Labour and Union systems.

 

 

‘We have problems but we moved on from that’. Since you’ve so much to say on every other country maybe we can all talk about yours? @Rucksackfranzose @Dr. Gonzo @Gunnersaurus

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/12/06/chart-of-the-week-how-south-africa-changed-and-didnt-over-mandelas-lifetime/

[Rucksackfranzose]

26 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Western values are what they are because of judeo/christian foundations

What judeo foundations? Have a look at European and American history Jews were marginalised until Napoleon, to name the first historical person to give them some citizen rights.

Edited July 22 by Rucksackfranzose

[Spike]

Just now, OrangeKhrush said:

The Church does not determine or make Law, it doesn't regulate administrative action and it doesn't act as the Judiciary.   You don't have to believe in a God to know that. 

You don’t know what ‘secular’ means. You are talking about separation of church and state

A politician making legislation based on their personal religion means that the legislation is not secular. We aren’t talking about organised religious mandates.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

‘We have problems but we moved on from that’. Since you’ve so much to say on every other country maybe we can all talk about yours? @Rucksackfranzose @Dr. Gonzo @Gunnersaurus

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/12/06/chart-of-the-week-how-south-africa-changed-and-didnt-over-mandelas-lifetime/

Does South Africa really have stringent labour laws? https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/employment-compensation/south-africa-do-we-really-have-stringent-labour-laws 

[OrangeKhrush]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If you don't know that South Africa was labelled the Rainbow nation long before "woke" was a thing,  the reference was part to the flag but mostly to the diverse race and languages of the population. 

Woke culture doesn't do well in South Africa,  predominantly in the African community,  homosexuality for instance is regarded as bad omen,  muti (traditional witch doctors) killings of homosexuals is something of a problem.   African customary law which is protected as the 4th and lowest tier of law also protects the right of the patriachy,  woman can not take positions of power. 

[Cicero]

Will Harris appeal to the moderate voters?

[OrangeKhrush]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

‘We have problems but we moved on from that’. Since you’ve so much to say on every other country maybe we can all talk about yours? @Rucksackfranzose @Dr. Gonzo @Gunnersaurus

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/12/06/chart-of-the-week-how-south-africa-changed-and-didnt-over-mandelas-lifetime/

You are free to

[Spike]

‘Woke’ doesn’t do well in South Africa because it’s a Black American cultural phenomenon of knowing the implicit biases that the USA has against Black people. It has nothing to do with homosexuality.

[Rucksackfranzose]

6 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Church does not determine or make Law, it doesn't regulate administrative action and it doesn't act as the Judiciary.   You don't have to believe in a God to know that. 

You're sure you know the difference between laicist and secular? Asking because you apparently don't.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Lmao imagine taking my joke-y image post and treating it as: 1.) serious, 2.) thinking you need to tell me how great South Africa is by saying: it's shit for women and gays here too!

[OrangeKhrush]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Does South Africa really have stringent labour laws? https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/employment-compensation/south-africa-do-we-really-have-stringent-labour-laws 

The Labour Relations Act - regulates the employer/employee relationship, collective bargaining rights and fair labour practices

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act - regulates minimum conditions of employment and rights arising out of the contractual relationship

The employment equity Act - Regulates against unfair discrimination 

Bargaining Councils - Regulate industry specific Rules and conditions of employment.

Some examples,  an employer cannot just dismiss and employee without just reason and fair process which is conducted in a hearing with evidence and an independent facilitator to determine the sanction.   Employees can then refer dismissals to a Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration commission or bargaining council to sit before a Commissioner that may determine if dismissal was fair.     

Unions and collective Bargaining is why there are Bargaining Councils to begin with.  

[OrangeKhrush]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lmao imagine taking my joke-y image post and treating it as: 1.) serious, 2.) thinking you need to tell me how great South Africa is by saying: it's shit for women and gays here too!

It isn't shit for woman or Gays unless you follow traditional practices which most don't,   Crime is a problem but thats the same everywhere.    

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Labour Relations Act - regulates the employer/employee relationship, collective bargaining rights and fair labour practices

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act - regulates minimum conditions of employment and rights arising out of the contractual relationship

The employment equity Act - Regulates against unfair discrimination 

Bargaining Councils - Regulate industry specific Rules and conditions of employment.

Some examples,  an employer cannot just dismiss and employee without just reason and fair process which is conducted in a hearing with evidence and an independent facilitator to determine the sanction.   Employees can then refer dismissals to a Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration commission or bargaining council to sit before a Commissioner that may determine if dismissal was fair.     

Unions and collective Bargaining is why there are Bargaining Councils to begin with.  

I take it you didn't read the article then. South Africa's got good labour laws compared to other developing nations... which I think most people would expect, honestly. But compared to say... where 99% of the forum lives, not so much.

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Labour Relations Act - regulates the employer/employee relationship, collective bargaining rights and fair labour practices

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act - regulates minimum conditions of employment and rights arising out of the contractual relationship

The employment equity Act - Regulates against unfair discrimination 

Bargaining Councils - Regulate industry specific Rules and conditions of employment.

Some examples,  an employer cannot just dismiss and employee without just reason and fair process which is conducted in a hearing with evidence and an independent facilitator to determine the sanction.   Employees can then refer dismissals to a Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration commission or bargaining council to sit before a Commissioner that may determine if dismissal was fair.     

Unions and collective Bargaining is why there are Bargaining Councils to begin with.  

Awesome labour laws, must be why a colonial minority (7%) earns six times the majority demographic (80%+)

[OrangeKhrush]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

‘Woke’ doesn’t do well in South Africa because it’s a Black American cultural phenomenon of knowing the implicit biases that the USA has against Black people. It has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Racism is not endemic to one Country, race, sexuality or religious group,  Racism goes all ways.   Woke has evolved beyond that scope and now comes down to reconditioning people to accept something that is scientifically false and persecute them for not believing it.

[OrangeKhrush]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

Awesome labour laws, must be why a colonial minority (7%) earns six times the majority demographic (80%+)

Colonials?  is this 1652 again?   

[Dr. Gonzo]

11 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Will Harris appeal to the moderate voters?

It's hard to say tbh. I'm not so sure moderate swing voters are really what's being targeted anymore. I'm not sure how a candidate like Donald Trump really appeals to moderates, realistically.

I think really what both parties are targeting is getting their party to turn up to actually vote in those battleground states. I don't think Biden stepped down because he wasn't winning over any "moderates" - I think with this election, you've seen 4 years of Trump as president & you've seen 4 years of Biden as president... I don't think there's many people who haven't made their minds up.

I think they wanted to avoid another 2016 Clinton scenario, where it's a candidate that not enough democratic voters in the swing states liked enough to turn up and actually vote - whereas with 2020 there was the ineptitude of the pandemic response and 4 years of Trump's chaos, so democrat voter turnout was at record highs. In 2024, Biden's rapid deterioration had him making lots of democrat voters thinking "I'll stay home this election, I don't like Trump but I can't vote for both." Polling was indicating that democrats simply get better turnout if Biden stepped out of the race for someone younger - which means even if they don't win the presidency, they have a better shot at doing better in congress.

And looking at how the donor money came flowing through for Harris since the announcement - she had the record day for small individual donations of $5-$25. That indicates she's at least got more democrat voter enthusiasm than Biden was bringing to the ticket.

Honestly, I'm not too sure how much of a role "undecided voters" will play in this election. Maybe amongst the fringe belief crowd, there might be people undecided between RFK and Trump and that might be enough to make a difference. But I think for most people, you're either all aboard the Trump train or you want the Trump train to crash and burn.

[OrangeKhrush]

19 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Will Harris appeal to the moderate voters?

It may be a desperation thing but some of the commentators are not happy with the selection

[Rucksackfranzose]

7 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Racism is not endemic to one Country, race, sexuality or religious group,  Racism goes all ways.   Woke has evolved beyond that scope and now comes down to reconditioning people to accept something that is scientifically false and persecute them for not believing it.

What exactly are these scientifically false things wokeness wants people to accept? May I guess you're talking about being gay not being an anormality demanding  psychological treatment?

[OrangeKhrush]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

1.) No not every Christian is far right - but Christian Nationalists are far right, that's not exactly difficult to understand. Christian Nationalists are an enemy of any secular country, as they believe in the internal politics of a society being governed by Christianity first and foremost.

That view isn't any less radical than fundamentalist Muslims wanting to govern with Islam first and foremost. And in a secular society like the US, they are an enemy.

2.) Trump's criminal trials aren't political prosecutions. In New York he was found guilty of fraud - that's not even in any way connected to the fedearl government and has fuck all to do with Joe Biden. His federal crimes were related to: 1.) calling Georgia's secretary of state and commanding him to "find the votes" to change the result of an election; 2.) improper handling of classified documents... you know, the same shit that he would have crowds of knuckle draggers chanting "lock her up" at Clinton for.

He's not even been sentenced and he's likely not going to be sentenced. He's still free, running for political office. Furthermore, he's been granted basic immunity by his own "deep state" the unelected officials that he's given lifetime appointments to.

And I think a registered republican who had Trump signs in his front yard shooting at Trump doesn't really count as "trying to kill a political opponent" - it seems like the Trump-Epstein news was enough to make someone told numerous times to "shoot their local pedo" to go find the highest profile pedo that was around him at the time.

But sure, the democrats are the true radicals with their things like: wanting to maintain America's longstanding tradition of freedom of religion. They are authoritarians for wanting rule of law to apply to even those who loudly shouted "law and order" as they violated as many laws as they could in 4 years - not the guy saying "I want to be a dictator" "I have great respect for Putin/Xi/Kim Jong" and "term limits shouldn't apply to me." Have I got that right?

1) I haven't seen a case of Christian fundamentalism,  I would agree that any religious fundamentalism is bad but I don't see where there is religious influence in American politics.   America's problems is that the people the Government is expected to regulate are the ones regulating the government and this is across the political aisle. 

2) the charges were 35 charges similarly worded but all of them are regarded as misdemeanors in terms of the statute of limitations that was escalated to a felony due to an impartial justice system that can either be Blue or Red which is another fundamental issue in that America doesn't have strong separation of powers.    

3) The guy that tried to kill trump has a tik tok account full of marxist ideology predominantly lenism he posted a video that he intends to kill trump and republicans.   he is only 20 making it his first time voting and placing republican on a registration doesn't make him one.   Witnesses from his school stated that he was mentally unstable and when you disagreed with him he got violent.

4) Paul Joseph Watson posted a video of cuts from CNN, MSNBC of numerous hosts calling for the killing of Trump and the villainising and dehumanising of Republicans,  the media have torn fractures into america and this is well on track with Yuri Bezmenov's interview on Russian cultural subversion plans set in motion as early as the 60's.    that video is quite chilling at just how candidly it was said.   We also saw Destiny get deplatformed for a rather grotesque take on the murder of an American citizen.   Calls for Joy Reid to also be deplatformed are underway.    

At least forever blue no matter who Bill Maher got it right,  the assassination attempt was a dark day in America,  it should be condemned no matter who.