American Politics Discussion

[nudge]

7 minutes ago, Mpache said:

Sorry if I'm barging in unwanted with this tweet, but I'm posting it because I absolutely despise that South Americans will go out to say there is no democracy in their country yet they want to flee to the USA as if they were any better.

What's so hard to understand though? In most cases, they flee to the USA in hopes of earning more money for themselves and their families. In other words, it has little to do with the state of democracy, just following the dollar. 

[Mpache]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf it's not that long ago Colombia was a very unstable country ravaged by the USA's "war on drugs" with tons of instability and... civil war issues. It might have been ignorant of how Colombia is now, but it's not all that offensive that a reporter would compare it with a place that's had noted instability (and noted US influence and presence).

It does show that the big talking heads on the big news networks are full of fucking shit.

To me, though, the biggest similarity is with the Middle East. Particularly, America's projects in Iraq and Afghanistan where we've seen US buildings attacked and sieged by radicalised militia groups which... actually look a lot like the people attacking US buildings in the US itself.

I can assure to you that Colombia is absolutely a better democracy than the USA now. As is Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. Yet we have knobheads in the continent who are desperate to move over there.

I would add Peru into that but our presidential situation has also been a mess so it's not really valid anymore!

[Mpache]

Just now, nudge said:

What's so hard to understand though? In most cases, they flee to the USA in hopes of earning more money for themselves and their families. In other words, it has little to do with the state of democracy, just following the dollar. 

Or the American dream, as there's a dozen countries that provide more assurance and quality of life. To start off, you can move north of the border or hell even to Argentina/Uruguay.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, nudge said:

What's so hard to understand though? In most cases, they flee to the USA in hopes of earning more money for themselves and their families. In other words, it has little to do with the state of democracy, just following the dollar. 

This is probably the biggest reason anyone comes to the US. Just speaking from personal experience.

Also loads of people leave unstable environments for places they might not necessarily agree with the politics just because those places offer more stability and opportunity. And in a few situations, like people in my family who were too left-wing for the Shah's Iran but just left-wing enough for the UK... people do actually move because of the political freedom/not getting persecuted for political beliefs (which tbf, is probably a lot of people who've come to the US as refugees from the third world).

Btw it blows my mind how long it's taken the US Government to regain control of it's capitol. It's not something you'd expect from a super power. Then again, you also wouldn't expect a superpower to be led by Donald Trump... so I guess I should temper expectations.

[Mpache]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is probably the biggest reason anyone comes to the US. Just speaking from personal experience.

Also loads of people leave unstable environments for places they might not necessarily agree with the politics just because those places offer more stability and opportunity. And in a few situations, like people in my family who were too left-wing for the Shah's Iran but just left-wing enough for the UK... people do actually move because of the political freedom/not getting persecuted for political beliefs (which tbf, is probably a lot of people who've come to the US as refugees from the third world).

Btw it blows my mind how long it's taken the US Government to regain control of it's capitol. It's not something you'd expect from a super power. Then again, you also wouldn't expect a superpower to be led by Donald Trump... so I guess I should temper expectations.

Except I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about now.

Colombia's past is terrible, Peru's past is terrible. USA's past is absolutely glorious. When I moved back to Peru in 2016 some of the rich people just looked at me funny and asked me why I would live there and how the USA is the best country in the world, probably because they've been to Disney World once in their life. It's the sort of thing that irks me out.

Also just a correction to a reply to @nudge, Argentina's peso has lost a ton of value so it's not really a valid point. That doesn't change that there is plenty of better countries where you can chase the dollar. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, most of Europe, etc. 

And to clear something up I love the USA as a country, but I hate the people that ape them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Mpache said:

I can assure to you that Colombia is absolutely a better democracy than the USA now.

Press X to doubt: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/colombias-inspector-general-corruption-is-the-new-cartel/

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the US is some bastion of democracy either. But emerging democracies where corruption has been king generally have issues in dealing with smoothly transitioning over. Let's also not forget, this is central America - if a democracy steers too far from US interests it usually gets subverted by the CIA lol.

And if anything, the last 4 years have been really eye opening as to how fragile stability in the west really is. Especially when a demagogue can subvert democracy and incite a riot without any shred of evidence to support his claims at all. As a Brit in the US, I find it worrying the Tories are on the path of completely Americanising our politics - because I think this is the end result when you treat politics like sport.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Mpache said:

USA's past is absolutely glorious.

Ehhh... it's a country. It's got good bits of it's past, it's got very fucked up bits of it's past.

[Mpache]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Press X to doubt: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/colombias-inspector-general-corruption-is-the-new-cartel/

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the US is some bastion of democracy either. But emerging democracies where corruption has been king generally have issues in dealing with smoothly transitioning over. Let's also not forget, this is central America - if a democracy steers too far from US interests it usually gets subverted by the CIA lol.

And if anything, the last 4 years have been really eye opening as to how fragile stability in the west really is. Especially when a demagogue can subvert democracy and incite a riot without any shred of evidence to support his claims at all. As a Brit in the US, I find it worrying the Tories are on the path of completely Americanising our politics - because I think this is the end result when you treat politics like sport.

Cherry picking much my man? Colombia still has a few cartel problems but they are all out on the west coast for the most part. Today Colombia has become the 3rd most stable country in South America after Uruguay and Chile.

[Mpache]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ehhh... it's a country. It's got good bits of it's past, it's got very fucked up bits of it's past.

They have a lot of great achievements to date and became the world power for a reason though mate. Sure they have had a lot of issues in the past but what country doesn't?

[nudge]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

This is probably the biggest reason anyone comes to the US. Just speaking from personal experience.

Also loads of people leave unstable environments for places they might not necessarily agree with the politics just because those places offer more stability and opportunity. And in a few situations, like people in my family who were too left-wing for the Shah's Iran but just left-wing enough for the UK... people do actually move because of the political freedom/not getting persecuted for political beliefs (which tbf, is probably a lot of people who've come to the US as refugees from the third world).

Btw it blows my mind how long it's taken the US Government to regain control of it's capitol. It's not something you'd expect from a super power. Then again, you also wouldn't expect a superpower to be led by Donald Trump... so I guess I should temper expectations.

Oh of course, there are plenty of people who come to the US seeking asylum due to instability of their home country or persecution they face back home for their political/religious beliefs or even sexual orientation. But still, seeking "better life" in terms of financial gain and wellbeing has been always one of the main reasons of moving there; that was the key thing behind the "American Dream". A rich land full of opportunities to make a living. Not much different from East Europeans emigrating to the UK or Scandinavian countries in search of better paid jobs and quality of life. 

[nudge]

3 minutes ago, Mpache said:

Also just a correction to a reply to @nudge, Argentina's peso has lost a ton of value so it's not really a valid point. That doesn't change that there is plenty of better countries where you can chase the dollar. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, most of Europe, etc. 

Much easier for a South American to migrate to the USA than to Australia, New Zealand or Western Europe though... To be allowed in, and then to work and live in most of those countries you have to fit a pretty strict list of requirements, and it's hard to sneak through illegaly if the air route is the only way in.

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, nudge said:

Much easier for a South American to migrate to the USA than to Australia, New Zealand or Western Europe though... To be allowed in, and then to work and live in most of those countries you have to fit a pretty strict list of requirements, and it's hard to sneak through illegaly if the air route is the only way in.

Yeah that's true, but I'm not knocking the people who actually do move to the USA though.

It's more on how much they harp on about the USA and how much they hate their own country. They do this in most third world countries and isn't just a South American thing.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Mpache said:

Cherry picking much my man? Colombia still has a few cartel problems but they are all out on the west coast for the most part. Today Colombia has become the 3rd most stable country in South America after Uruguay and Chile.

Is that cherry picking? It's an article about widespread corruption in Colombia, and widespread corruption is not a hallmark of a robust democracy. It's why the US has looked less and less democratic over the last 4 years.

Honestly, I think recent history has been really unkind with democracy all around the world. It's really the public's fault. 

Apparently the Senate is meeting to reconvene to certify the votes now that the rioters have been cleaned out from the building. I hope they seriously consider impeaching Trump and removing him just so we don't have to deal with 2 more weeks of his bullshit anymore - but like I said earlier, I think that's very unlikely.

[Mpache]

Actually @nudge I did say something about wanting to chase the dollar. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I was talking about it a bit. Won't deny it.

Though my 2nd point is still my biggest gripe!

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Is that cherry picking? It's an article about widespread corruption in Colombia, and widespread corruption is not a hallmark of a robust democracy. It's why the US has looked less and less democratic over the last 4 years.

Honestly, I think recent history has been really unkind with democracy all around the world. It's really the public's fault. 

Apparently the Senate is meeting to reconvene to certify the votes now that the rioters have been cleaned out from the building. I hope they seriously consider impeaching Trump and removing him just so we don't have to deal with 2 more weeks of his bullshit anymore - but like I said earlier, I think that's very unlikely.

Fair enough a lot of democracies have corruption but I can assure you Colombia is stable for the most part. They still have some development issues but overall it doesn't deserve to live off it's past reputation as it's simply one of the best countries in South America today.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Mpache said:

Fair enough a lot of democracies have corruption but I can assure you Colombia is stable for the most part. They still have some development issues but overall it doesn't deserve to live off it's past reputation as it's simply one of the best countries in South America today.

Every country's got corruption, imo. You can go look up the corruption index though, it's not necessarily great reading for Colombia in terms of a country with "minimal" corruption - though it shows that the government acknowledges and has made steps to address the corruption issues.

[Danny]

Let’s be honest this is no surprise, we’ve seen how Trump has emboldened racists in Charlottesville and around the States. Largely this attack on the Capitol is Trump and his supporters giving white America the same treatment he’s been giving black America throughout his tenure.

Sad to hear that someone died from this too, there shouldn’t be a single supporter remaining amongst the Republican politicians but sadly that won’t be the case 

[nudge]

3 minutes ago, Mpache said:

Yeah that's true, but I'm not knocking the people who actually do move to the USA though.

It's more on how much they harp on about the USA and how much they hate their own country. They do this in most third world countries and isn't just a South American thing.

 

1 minute ago, Mpache said:

Actually @nudge I did say something about wanting to chase the dollar. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I was talking about it a bit. Won't deny it.

Though my 2nd point is still my biggest gripe!

 

Well, not being satisfied with the quality of life, living conditions, corrupt politicians, low wages, lack of transparity and equality, lack of adequate education and career opportunies is a pretty good reason to criticise your own country, I'd say, and that often happens to be the case in the so-called "third world". Everyone wants to be able to live a comfortable life, and if your country can't offer you that, you're naturally going to be disillusioned with it. 

[Danny]

 

[nudge]

 

 

[Mpache]

Just now, nudge said:

 

 

Well, not being satisfied with the quality of life, living conditions, corrupt politicians, low wages, lack of transparity and equality, lack of adequate education and career opportunies is a pretty good reason to criticise your own country, I'd say, and that often happens to be the case in the so-called "third world". Everyone wants to be able to live a comfortable life, and if your country can't offer you that, you're naturally going to be disillusioned with it. 

They could be valid or not, but there's 2 extremes: either they've been to the USA once and it was a trip to Disney World, or they haven't even been to the corner of his own house. As someone who has lived in both a third world and a first world, I can tell you I feel I have more opportunities in Canada but I'm much much happier in Peru, which I think is a pretty important factor too. Here I also must have a car to go to places, and I don't like driving, but the public transport is god awful.

They'll be discriminated here as well. My family has been discriminated many times for being Latino.

I think each have advantages and disadvantages.

[nudge]

15 minutes ago, Mpache said:

They could be valid or not, but there's 2 extremes: either they've been to the USA once and it was a trip to Disney World, or they haven't even been to the corner of his own house. As someone who has lived in both a third world and a first world, I can tell you I feel I have more opportunities in Canada but I'm much much happier in Peru, which I think is a pretty important factor too. Here I also must have a car to go to places, and I don't like driving, but the public transport is god awful.

They'll be discriminated here as well. My family has been discriminated many times for being Latino.

I think each have advantages and disadvantages.

There's always pros and cons everywhere. You're not exactly part of the poor working class that is dependent on low paid jobs which you can't even quit because you have to feed your family though, are you? You're also privileged because you already have a choice due to your Canadian connection, most people living in third world countries don't. That will always make a huge difference in attitudes. Personally, I'm happier living in developing countries as well (for different reasons), but only when the source of my income is based in a developed country with a strong economy and high wages. There's no way I'd like to live in a third world country on an average third world wage though.

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I’ve said some stuff about trump and America in general but this beyond the pale. He needs to be locked up. He is a criminal. 

Rudy Giuliani needs to go too as far as I'm concerned. Was at that rally earlier mouthing off about trial by combat or something before they marched up the hill. An utter disgrace.

[Danny]

Award for dumb fuck of the hour goes to:

 

[Stan]

Great report here:

At one point he's asking rioters 'what's the reason for storming Congress?' 

A voice replies 'how the hell do I know?!' 

Says it all!