Slippy G vs Fat Frank

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Ideally yeah, but it'd be hard for a player to curb their drilled responses and lampard would bomb in the box with late runs, which would leave the midfield dead to be run over in a counter. but hey if spain can fit xavi, iniesta, alonso, fabregas, silva, mata, de la red, senna, and a bunch of other midfielders, england should have been able to do it as well

Lampard had the ability to play deep imo, didn't think Gerrard had the same discipline in those positions.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Danny said:

Lampard had the ability to play deep imo, didn't think Gerrard had the same discipline in those positions.

Honestly if you are feeling cheeky you could play a 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Rooney as the strikers

[Danny]

Just now, Spike said:

Honestly if you are feeling cheeky you could play a 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Rooney as the strikers

Play a 4-4-2 with 2 players who love to be everywhere bar one specific rigid position? It'd turn into a 4-6-0

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Danny said:

Play a 4-4-2 with 2 players who love to be everywhere bar one specific rigid position? It'd turn into a 4-6-0

rooney can do it as a central striker, he did it for fergie a few seasons

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

Honestly if you are feeling cheeky you could play a 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Rooney as the strikers

Rafa’s plan with Gerrard once his legs were going was to move him further up forward, Rodgers saw him more as a deep lying playmaker when his legs were going.

I think Rafa’s plan would have been more useful in Gerrard’s later years and he could have kept going for a bit longer as a forward.

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

rooney can do it as a central striker, he did it for fergie a few seasons

Na done it for 1 season I'm sure, that 40 goals season and then dropped off after

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Rafa’s plan with Gerrard once his legs were going was to move him further up forward, Rodgers saw him more as a deep lying playmaker when his legs were going.

I think Rafa’s plan would have been more useful in Gerrard’s later years and he could have kept going for a bit longer as a forward.

I agree with Rafa on this. So many players are moved back when they are older but they should be moved forward. Look at Yaya Toure, he should have been an attacking midfielder from day one instead of a DM and a CB. Alex Meier in germany became a phenomenal forward when he was older

[Lucas]

4 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

So are other top midfielders of that generation and of the last twenty years not as good as Gerrard because he did it in a lesser team?

Nope, definitely didn't say that. You'd be slightly twisting my statement if you went down that road especially if we started to talk about your Iniesta's etc.

But in this particular case where the topic is comparing who was better out of Lampard and Gerrard, I think it benefitted Lampard having such great players around him to let him play to his strengths. How could it not with a rock solid defence and the likes of Makelele and Essien around you.

I don't think Gerrard necessarily had that luxury. For that reason, I would always plump for Gerrard. 

But that is just my opinion and definitely not one that everyone will agree with.

[Danny]

Just now, Lucas said:

Nope, definitely didn't say that. You'd be slightly twisting my statement if you went down that road especially if we started to talk about your Iniesta's etc.

But in this particular case where the topic is comparing who was better out of Lampard and Gerrard, I think it benefitted Lampard having such great players around him to let him play to his strengths. How could it not?

I don't think Gerrard necessarily had that luxury. For that reason, I would always plump for Gerrard. 

But that is just my opinion and definitely not one that everyone will agree with.

You could make the argument that Lampard had to fit into more of a system around these players, whereas because of the lack of some quality at Liverpool Gerrard was given free reign and so never really proved himself at a side where the expectation is higher

[Lucas]

8 minutes ago, Danny said:

You could make the argument that Lampard had to fit into more of a system around these players, whereas because of the lack of some quality at Liverpool Gerrard was given free reign and so never really proved himself at a side where the expectation is higher

You could. And I'd acknowledge the point.

But I don't think Lampard could carry a club on his shoulders like Gerrard. That was a heavy burden.

It felt to me like Gerrard had to do it all at Liverpool. In truth, we will never know because Lampard hasn't been in that position but his test of character as a manager is found wanting which makes me doubt as a player he could have done that.

No one will change my mind on it. As i said earlier, you will have a pretty much split poll because the truth is they were two great players of that generation, and different people look for different things when they come to form opinions on these matters.

[Spike]

Just now, Lucas said:

You could. And I'd acknowledge the point.

But I don't think Lampard could carry a club on his shoulders like Gerrard. That was a heavy burden.

It felt to me like Gerrard had to do it all at Liverpool. In truth, we will never know because Lampard hasn't been in that position but his test of character as a manager is found wanting which makes me doubt as a player he could have done that.

No one will change my mind on it. As i said earlier, you will have a pretty much split poll because the truth is they were two great players of that generation, and different people look for different things when they come to form opinions on these matters.

 

Really? He succeeded at West Ham where he was possibly one of their most hated players of all time, that is a pretty good achievement in regards to a burdens

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

Really? He succeeded at West Ham where he was possibly one of their most hated players of all time, that is a pretty good achievement in regards to a burdens

Was he? How come? 

[MUFC]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Rafa’s plan with Gerrard once his legs were going was to move him further up forward, Rodgers saw him more as a deep lying playmaker when his legs were going.

I think Rafa’s plan would have been more useful in Gerrard’s later years and he could have kept going for a bit longer as a forward.

I remember when Rafa was getting stick for playing Gerrard on the right wing for a season, didn't Gerrard have his best season stats wise that season? Anyway what I'm saying is that Rafa moved Ferrard on the right for a season and later on just behind torres. After the season where he played Gerrard on the right, he was interviewed by one of the UK newspapers regarding why Gerrard was played on the right. So he gave a tactical breakdown, in a nutshell he said that he didn't fully trust Gerrard in the middle especially the deeper areas because he kept squandering possession in dangerous areas. As his career as a whole I can't say myself if this is true as you lot will know much better. But in my time I have seen on 4 occasions lose the ball which has led to goals. The most famous one was vs Chelsea when Ba scored, few years earlier he did it vs Chelsea where Drogba scored, he did it vs Arsenal and Henry got onto the back pass and scored and he also did it vs France in the Euros, again Henry got onto it and the keeper brought him down. 

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Lucas said:

You could. And I'd acknowledge the point.

But I don't think Lampard could carry a club on his shoulders like Gerrard. That was a heavy burden.

It felt to me like Gerrard had to do it all at Liverpool. In truth, we will never know because Lampard hasn't been in that position but his test of character as a manager is found wanting which makes me doubt as a player he could have done that.

No one will change my mind on it. As i said earlier, you will have a pretty much split poll because the truth is they were two great players of that generation, and different people look for different things when they come to form opinions on these matters.

Yeah it wasn't necessarily a point I was arguing, but interesting to counter to the one you made.

I don't think Lampard's mentality as a manager effects him as a player tbh, if anything it backs up why he was so good, cos he could sulk and throw a fit but then go into training or another match and just produce the goods.

Yeah it is difficult, I do think Gerrard was more of a moments player with bigger peaks and Lampard was probably not as good in terms of ability but had a drive to be the best. A bit similar to Messi/Ronaldo but also not similar at all cos neither are anywhere near as good as them 

[Spike]

Just now, Stan said:

Was he? How come? 

because his uncle and his dad were at the club when he broke through, so I think it seemed like old boy nepotism to the west ham fans, and there is one thing working class people don't like, it'd be that. that's what i've been told at least, @Danny would know more

[Lucas]

Just now, Spike said:

Really? He succeeded at West Ham where he was possibly one of their most hated players of all time, that is a pretty good achievement in regards to a burdens

Behave 

The two are not even comparable in the slightest.

[Spike]

Just now, Danny said:

Yeah it wasn't necessarily a point I was arguing, but interesting to counter to the one you made.

I don't think Lampard's mentality as a manager effects him as a player tbh, if anything it backs up why he was so good, cos he could sulk and throw a fit but then go into training or another match and just produce the goods.

Yeah it is difficult, I do think Gerrard was more of a moments player with bigger peaks and Lampard was probably not as good in terms of ability but had a drive to be the best. A bit similar to Messi/Ronaldo but also not similar at all cos neither are anywhere near as good as them 

you can always find evidence to the contrary in the lamps v gerrard debate

 

[Danny]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

Really? He succeeded at West Ham where he was possibly one of their most hated players of all time, that is a pretty good achievement in regards to a burdens

Lampard was disliked at West Ham but the main hatred came after he left for Chelsea. He got a good reception when he returned to play in a testimonial though, despite some boos, a lot of autographs pitchside.

He never really carried West Ham though, was just one of many promising young talents. The man who carried West Ham was Di Canio

[Spike]

Just now, Lucas said:

Behave 

The two are not even comparable in the slightest.

of course they are, the pressure is immense on both sides of that coin. being the talisman and being public enemy number one are huge psychological battles, at least gerrard had the fans on his side to spur him on

[Cicero]

Just now, Spike said:

you can always find evidence to the contrary in the lamps v gerrard debate

 

Again, Peak Lampard > Peak Gerrard and Peak Scholes

 

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

you can always find evidence to the contrary in the lamps v gerrard debate

 

I always rated his game technically, but I don't think this negates the point that Gerrard had more ability. That's why his big moments for Liverpool feel much more important than Lampard's

[MUFC]

I'd have had a midfield 2 of Scholes and Hargreaves, 2 players who can keep possession sitting deep and controlling the game. I'd put Gerrard behind the striker, like the period where he played behind Torres. 

[Spike]

1 minute ago, MUFC said:

I'd have had a midfield 2 of Scholes and Hargreaves, 2 players who can keep possession sitting deep and controlling the game. I'd put Gerrard behind the striker, like the period where he played behind Torres. 

*knees explode after his third pass* ah the hargreaves special

[Lucas]

7 minutes ago, Spike said:

of course they are, the pressure is immense on both sides of that coin. being the talisman and being public enemy number one are huge psychological battles, at least gerrard had the fans on his side to spur him on

Jesus christ, public enemy number one?

My god, that situation is so over glorified. 

He had a section of boo boys at the club that thought he wasn't in the squad on merit because his dad and uncle were at the club.

And he proved them wrong by showing them what a good talent he was through his displays that alerted us and you to go for him. We very nearly had him infact and at the last minute he went to you.

There were equally plenty of West Ham fans that loved him as one of their own during his time. It was never that bad a picture you paint.

The way you describe it, you'd think he'd gone through what David Beckham went through with a burning effigy 

[MUFC]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

*knees explode after his third pass* ah the hargreaves special

I dig that lol, but when he had them years injury free he was immense. He was known as Bayerns enforcer, replaced Effenberg for a game and Effenberg never got back in. I remember our 2007-2008 season when we won the CL and league. He was injury free all season and just controlled the midfield against the top sides in Europe and in the league. He also had a great Euro's for Eng;and, such a shame he had them injuries. Bayern used to call him their midfield enforcer.