UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Stan said:

end of January I'd imagine.

Isn’t that the new deadline. I want to know what the deadline after January 31 will be.

[Stan]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Isn’t that the new deadline. I want to know what the deadline after January 31 will be.

Ah thought you meant that one. Misread your post.

[SirBalon]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There’s a new deadline. I wonder when the next deadline will be.

So many celebrating the EU's A50 Extension and I am confused as to what it achieves other than to be able to comfortably troll Boris Johnson, Michael Gove et al due to their statements. Other than that it only brings on a GE and as far as I'm concerned there are only two outcomes... A hung Parliament which achieves more mayhem or a narrow Tory victory and Brexit with an immediate far-right UK world which for me personally is unliveable. An open pathway for Brexiters to troll Remainers which tbh is what it's all about for them now as it's now established that there are no tangible benefits to leaving the EU, the total contrary.

[SirBalon]

 

[Stan]

This is worrying. The NHS should not and should never be part of a trade deal with the US. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Whooooaaa if the UK ends up with anywhere near same shite system of healthcare as the US, that's not good news for anyone. American drug prices are an absolute fucking scam and the American pharmaceutical industry is so incredibly predatory. You couple that with private health insurance and the entire healthcare industry looks like an awful awful scam here. Here I get my health insurance through work, but I still have to pay a fraction of it out of my wages - I think I pay about 4% of my paycheck into my insurance. I have good coverage, but it still feels like a ripoff. And in the U.S., I think most people don't have their employers pay for their insurance (I think it's 51% have their own insurance) - for them the costs are higher because they're paying 100% of that bill.

Right now even drug companies in the U.S. give preferential rates to Medicaid - their state run health system. For everyone else in the country, the rates are significantly higher for drug prices because they've negotiated with individual health insurance companies what the values of each drug costs. So @Stan is absolutely right, if the rate NHS pays for drugs is on the negotiating table, it is CRITICAL that the information about the pricing is made public.

If drug prices in the UK get anywhere near what they are in the U.S. - the NHS is absolutely fucked. The austerity goons will point to how expensive it is to maintain the NHS after these new drug prices come into effect, and then all of a sudden there will be a huge push for the dismantling of the NHS and selling facilities to private caregivers. This is after a bus was driven around the city saying the money we pay to the EU will go towards the NHS - so this is a pretty big betrayal to Brexit voters who may have believed that load of shite, and surely by now must have come to terms with the fact that NHS would in fact probably be working with a smaller budget after Brexit than what as promised (although those people were fucking true).

If we move to the U.S. model of healthcare, it's not going to be good for the working class - just like it's not for the working class in the United States (source: https://www.apexedi.com/medical-bills-the-leading-cause-of-bankruptcy-in-the-united-states/). It's also not good for business generally - there's lots of evidence that shows having a well working public health system (like NHS) means that employers don't need to provide expensive health insurance for their workers (because in a business perspective, a healthy workforce is a productive workforce - if you've got people that are constantly ill, that's people that you either need to replace, which costs money, or those workers are less productive because they're constantly ill, which costs money). And it's particularly bad for smaller businesses, as health insurance can be very costly - so that's a big chunk of capital that smaller businesses would be otherwise using to grow their businesses.

So really two opposite ends that feel the biggest brunt of that... assuming that these pharmaceuticals are interested in having UK prices be closer to what they are in the US. And even if it doesn't come close to US prices and is just a minor increase, any price increase means a higher cost to maintain the NHS at it's current standards.

As said above, the NHS should not and should never be a part of a trade deal with any nation. Especially not the one developed country with the predatory form of healthcare.

[Stan]

 

 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 25/10/2019 at 09:47, RandoEFC said:

@SirBalon quoting and agreeing with his own post is the greatest evidence yet that this thread is becoming the echo-chamber that @Fairy In Boots calls it .

Echo chamber when it’s the same several individuals agreeing with themselves, don’t know why you bothered with the ninja just call it as is. 

On 25/10/2019 at 21:37, The Artful Dodger said:

Guarantee you're the kind of lad who dresses up in peaky blinder clobber and whose bird fancies any other fella she comes in contact with.

Shall we do the nobhead Nostradamus stuff anymore? You sound like a bad scab, nothing worse than working people slagging off other working people.

Or working people slagging off none working people. 

Also the bizarre first sentence is inaccurate and shows you for the acidic tosser you are. 

Guaremtee you’re a union rep. 

[SirBalon]

So the HoC have voted down Johnson's December 12 General Election after not obtaining a two thirds of the chamber. They're bickering over a number of days which tells us how divided they are, as divided as the nation. The good thing is that this Government is on its last legs, its legs are wobbling and they need just one last jab on the nose to collapse like a house of cards. Boy would I love to see that but I'm sure there'll be a consensus for a GE soon enough although I prefer to see the Tories get more blows to finish them off for a decade at least.

[The Artful Dodger]

11 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Echo chamber when it’s the same several individuals agreeing with themselves, don’t know why you bothered with the ninja just call it as is. 

Or working people slagging off none working people. 

Also the bizarre first sentence is inaccurate and shows you for the acidic tosser you are. 

Guaremtee you’re a union rep. 

You can give it but you can't take it, it seems.

You really don't have a clue if you think I'd be a union rep. Was briefly a member of Unite but they're mainly full of careerists looking for a jolly off union members backs and they always sell out working people at the crunch. They are essentially tools for the management nowadays. Only union needed is working people.

[RandoEFC+]

Corbyn is now backing an election. Looks like it'll take place on 9-12 December.

Possibly the beginning of the endgame here but could just as easily be another hung parliament and another deadlock.

The Lib Dems are starting to concern me with the way they keep distancing themselves from Labour even more than from the Tories. I'm afraid if Labour and the Lib Dems want to have any shot at a second referendum or revoking Article 50 they'll almost certainly have to work together. First they have to hope the Conservatives fail to reach a majority, then Swinson will have to look beyond her Corbyn issue. Too many ifs for me.

Hopefully Corbyn can pull off another mega campaign. Last time Labour were trailing by 24 points in the polls when the election was called.

Boris will be a better campaigner than Theresa May but let's also not forget that his people basically muzzled him during the Conservative leadership contest because of how good he is at coming out with terrible bullshit when put on the spot. No running away from the debates this time.

If theres any way they can get the votes at 16 amendment through in time that will only help Labour too.

[Fairy In Boots]

5 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

You can give it but you can't take it, it seems.

You really don't have a clue if you think I'd be a union rep. Was briefly a member of Unite but they're mainly full of careerists looking for a jolly off union members backs and they always sell out working people at the crunch. They are essentially tools for the management nowadays. Only union needed is working people.

Lol I can take it my friend, calling you acidic is not me getting sensitive it’s just me telling you how you come across. 

A typical embittered liberal frustrated and quick to anger at anyone who doesn’t see the world from your view. It’s why you’re frequently acidic in your criticism of them. Lennon is a spot on avatar he was a tedious preachy cunt by the end. 

Also unions are shite, I’ve had expierience with the Mrs who paid in against my advice and they shafted her, you’re accurate in your description of them. 

Disagree on working people though, people by and large are thick and prone to group thought so I naturally steer clear of such shite. 

[Guest]

@Fairy In Boots I have no idea why you would consider being a union rep an insult. Most union reps are proud to be one

[The Artful Dodger]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Fairy In Boots I have no idea why you would consider being a union rep an insult. Most union reps are proud to be one

I'm guessing he thinks they're all lazy, freeloaders etc etc. I have to say I found my experience of trade unionism very depressing, to be fair most of the reps were sound and well meaning but the whole thing is set up to eventually compromise and agree with the bosses. They've been neutered by the laws which make it harder to call a strike than to win an election, it's farcical and therefore unions are basically useless.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Corbyn is now backing an election. Looks like it'll take place on 9-12 December.

Possibly the beginning of the endgame here but could just as easily be another hung parliament and another deadlock.

The Lib Dems are starting to concern me with the way they keep distancing themselves from Labour even more than from the Tories. I'm afraid if Labour and the Lib Dems want to have any shot at a second referendum or revoking Article 50 they'll almost certainly have to work together. First they have to hope the Conservatives fail to reach a majority, then Swinson will have to look beyond her Corbyn issue. Too many ifs for me.

Hopefully Corbyn can pull off another mega campaign. Last time Labour were trailing by 24 points in the polls when the election was called.

Boris will be a better campaigner than Theresa May but let's also not forget that his people basically muzzled him during the Conservative leadership contest because of how good he is at coming out with terrible bullshit when put on the spot. No running away from the debates this time.

If theres any way they can get the votes at 16 amendment through in time that will only help Labour too.

Tories will probably be wiped out in Scotland, London and lose their DUP support. They have to make to rely on Brexit being the main issue for everyone, for people to forget what this party has done to our towns, councils and the way it treats the most vulnerable among us. Unfortunately they may well do it.

The Tories are now threatening to pull the election if an amendment passes allowing Settled EU nationals the right to the vote. Beneath contempt.

[RandoEFC+]

 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm guessing he thinks they're all lazy, freeloaders etc etc. I have to say I found my experience of trade unionism very depressing, to be fair most of the reps were sound and well meaning but the whole thing is set up to eventually compromise and agree with the bosses. They've been neutered by the laws which make it harder to call a strike than to win an election, it's farcical and therefore unions are basically useless.

 

He probably does think that. Although if it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have many rights.

[RandoEFC+]

The Tories crying now that it would take 6 months administratively to put in place the 16/17 year old vote amendment. This is the party that wanted to get the entire withdrawal agreement bill through the house in 3 days. 

[Inverted]

I'm hoping Scotland at least partially comes to its senses regarding the SNP and Labour. 

Corbyn has said that Labour has no intentions of blocking Indy ref 2, so there's not really any point of voting SNP over Labour in a GE. The SNP only needs a majority at Holyrood as a symbol of popular support for another referendum, their Westminster seats are wasted. 

 

[SirBalon]

I'm not giving up but what I do know is that a General Election does NOT sort out Brexit at all where the people's wishes are concerned right now. A People's Vote should've been executed first, get Brexit out of the way whichever way it goes and then use a General Election for what it's meant to be which are policies for local people and to undo the damage 9 years of Tory Governments have done.

Even though Brexit will be a big part of the campaign jargon for all parties, we know there are safe seats and is there really any point in a remainer or a leaver voting in a respectively closed safe seat on their wishes? NO! Of course there isn't!

To make matter worse we have to take into consideration why we are in this Brexit mess in the first place (ignoring David Cameron's ruinous idea to implement the referendum in the first place so as to save the Tory Party from UKIP and in-fighting)...

These are the reasons and this is why it's over unfortunately...

Labour and the Lib Dems will not just be fighting the Tories in the GE, they will be fighting:

BBC
LBC
TalkRadio
Times
Telegraph
Daily Mail
Metro
London evening standard
Sun
Daily Express
Taxpayers alliance
Newsnight
Question Time
Marr show
Nick Ferrari 
Farage
Robinson
kuenssberg
Pierce

FIGHTING EACH OTHER!!!
et al

[Inverted]

Its actually amazing that the Tories managed to stop themselves from laughing harder after being reminded of dozens of poor people burning to death. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, Inverted said:

Its actually amazing that the Tories managed to stop themselves from laughing harder after being reminded of dozens of poor people burning to death. 

 

Weird when Theresa May comes across as not as out of touch as some of her colleagues

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Labour and the Lib Dems will not just be fighting the Tories in the GE, they will be fighting:

Lib Dems might get some attacks from the press - but they won't be fighting the media anywhere near as much as Labour. For all the complaints about "lefty journalists" the press loves to give Labour and Corbyn a hard time - Tories and even further to the right always get the kid gloves treatment. But Lib Dems are really just the watered down version of Tories - and let's not forget their stance is "WE WANT TO REMAIN (unless that means we make a coalition with Corbyn's labour!)." There's no doubt in my mind that if it was between forming a coalition that would result in Corbyn as PM but the UK remaining in the EU, or forming a coalition with the Tories and leaving with BoJo the Clown's deal... Swinson would be all aboard Brexit. Ideological backbone is NOT a Lib Dem strongsuit. Falling in line with Tories is though.

[SirBalon]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lib Dems might get some attacks from the press - but they won't be fighting the media anywhere near as much as Labour. For all the complaints about "lefty journalists" the press loves to give Labour and Corbyn a hard time - Tories and even further to the right always get the kid gloves treatment. But Lib Dems are really just the watered down version of Tories - and let's not forget their stance is "WE WANT TO REMAIN (unless that means we make a coalition with Corbyn's labour!)." There's no doubt in my mind that if it was between forming a coalition that would result in Corbyn as PM but the UK remaining in the EU, or forming a coalition with the Tories and leaving with BoJo the Clown's deal... Swinson would be all aboard Brexit. Ideological backbone is NOT a Lib Dem strongsuit. Falling in line with Tories is though.

Those are all assumptions by either using historic errors or nit picking at certain aspects of recent times. Shall we look at Labour's record on Brexit over the past three+ years?

This current Lib Dem lot have attacked (and continue to do so) the Tories as much as Labour.

[RandoEFC+]

Have there been any "magical money trees" headlines in response to the Tories planning to open more schools, hospitals and employ more police yet?

Lefty media . The Guardian fair enough but the rest have been running a coordinated smear campaign against Corbyn for about 4 years.