Companies Going Woke

[Goku de la Boca]

I am not a misogynist nor racist nor xenophonic yet I can see a certain agenda pushed against while males. Some people have lost the concept of "equal rights" and "entertainment" in order to push an agenda.

Alien, Rush Hour, etc, are examples of strong independent women or black protagonists that are not shoehorned in. So it's not that the public is racist or misogynist that we aren't supporting Disney movies, it's that we're tired of them making those agendas look worse and worse.

I think them hiring an activist as a director highlights that perfectly. It's fine to show progressive rights but Disney IMO are doing it the most obvious way possible that doesn't teach any moral rights.

What are your opinions?

[RandoEFC+]

If you don't like those films then don't watch them. That's my opinion. There are plenty of good films and bad films with white male leads. There are also plenty of good and bad films with female/minority/LGBT leads. I'll concede that Disney/Marvel have been very ham-fisted on some occasions where it feels forced to draw attention to female empowerment or gay rights but what it always comes back to is that it appeals someone and if it doesn't appeal to you then you don't have to watch it.

Generally, people who use the word "woke" tend to be silly tits in my experience who aren't able to string three sentences together to explain what their problem is in their own words.

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

If you don't like those films then don't watch them. That's my opinion. There are plenty of good films and bad films with white male leads. There are also plenty of good and bad films with female/minority/LGBT leads. I'll concede that Disney/Marvel have been very ham-fisted on some occasions where it feels forced to draw attention to female empowerment or gay rights but what it always comes back to is that it appeals someone and if it doesn't appeal to you then you don't have to watch it.

Generally, people who use the word "woke" tend to be silly tits in my experience who aren't able to string three sentences together to explain what their problem is in their own words.

I don't know what other word to use - but the first point of your post I disagree with strongly. "If you don't like those films", a lot of people don't like those films and that's leading Disney to lose a lot of money. Now, I agree that there are plenty of good films with female, blacks and LGBT's but most of the good ones have a focus on making a good film and not pushing an agenda.

The strong independent women cliche has existed since the beginning of time. Alien is an amazing franchise that features one, but that was a natural lead and not ham fisted like Disney are doing, and to be fair even if Disney do ham fist leads, it shouldn't matter too much. It would bother me much, much less if they didn't try to make men look terrible and the outright moral villains, demoralizing us. That literally defeats the equal rights argument. The new director apparently said that she's gonna work hard to make men feel uncomfortable. That is not progressiveness or equal rights, that's called revenge.

[nudge]

Lol I like how they describe her as just a "Pakistani feminist activist" in that tweet, it's so fucking reductive. She won multiple Oscars and Emmys for directing documentaries, her work in animation has also won awards and was critically acclaimed, and she also directed live action TV show in the Marvel universe. 

My opinion is that I will give everyone a fair chance and reserve my judgement until after the movie is released, everything else makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited January 4 by nudge

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, nudge said:

Lol I like how they describe her as just a "Canadian feminist activist" in that tweet, it's so fucking reductive. She won multiple Oscars and Emmys for directing documentaries, her work in animation has also won awards and was critically acclaimed, and she also directed live action TV show in the Marvel universe. 

My opinion is that I will give everyone a fair chance and reserve my judgement until after the movie is released, everything else makes no sense whatsoever.

That is definitely unfair but she does not have a good interview history.

https://thatparkplace.com/upcoming-star-wars-director-sharmeen-obaid-chinoy-i-like-to-make-men-uncomfortable-i-enjoy-making-men-uncomfortable/

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

The strong independent women cliche has existed since the beginning of time.

And yet misogyny has run rampant throughout human history and women still have to fight for equal rights and protections as men... basically all over the world. As a result, it's not surprising there are TV shows, films, books, etc... that have political messaging in support of equality for women.

Companies having political values or putting out political messages isn't anything new. Especially in films, which are a form of art. There's always been politics in art, in the Rennaissance... most art was actually political (even the very religious stuff). Art has famously been used for propaganda (which is political) since... probably since the concept of "art" became a thing.

As a result, it's not surprising a filmmaker puts their political values into a film. And honestly... Star Wars itself originally is a story about fighting off fascism to restore democracy. The prequels are very much about how easy it is to lose democracy and slide into fascism - with a lot of not-so-subtle criticisms of Bush and the Iraq war. So political ideas in a Star Wars film are not new either.

Feminist ideas aren't even new to Star Wars. The leader of the Rebel Alliance is Mon Mothma, a woman portrayed as a strong and respected leader fighting for freedom in the galaxy. Princess Leia needs to be rescued by Luke, Han, and Chewie... but she never seems like a weak character. She withstands getting tortured by the Empire, watches her family (and planet) get murdered in front of her eyes, and never once seems to display weakness at all before Imperial leadership. Her character is considered a feminist hero by many for good reason.

I think Disney are pretty not subtle about the way they do it... and a lot of what they do tbh feels like obvious "LOOK WE ARE INCLUSIVE AND THEREFORE GOOD" to pat themselves on the back. And then other times, like with Andor, their political messaging is really well done and brilliant. I don't think anyone likes sloppy political messaging that just seems like forcing in some sort of ideas of diversity - it's just lazy tokenism.

What I liked least about the Disney trilogy of Star Wars was the absolute dogshit writing. I didn't hate Rey because she was a woman Jedi, disliked Rey because she's a poorly written character it was fucking stupid that with barely any guidance or training she's suddenly a master at the force. If this director that "End Wokeness" is worried about can put her political messaging in line with... the traditional political messaging of Star Wars and can tell a good story that's well written, I will probably like her film. If her political messaging is sloppy tokenisms and the film is poorly written, I'll think it's shit.

But I'm not going to think it's shit because of "wokeness" - I think wokeness is an entirely meaningless term. "Oh no, some film and TV show has political messaging" - no shit, that's always been the case. If you don't like the political messaging, don't watch it. And I do think that the people who use the terms "woke" and "wokeness" as a pejorative descriptor are definitively racist and/or. They don't like the idea of people they don't believe as equal to be portrayed as equal to them in popular culture.

For instance, if the idea of Disney casting a black woman as Ariel in the Little Mermaid upset anyone... I know 100% that they are a racist. It's a fucking mermaid, why does the skin colour matter? It doesn't, it's just people being pissed off something they remember from their childhood is now depicting Ariel as someone they see as "lesser" - and they see her as lesser because they're racist. So then they say things like "Disney is woke" and "go woke, go broke" because otherwise what they'd want to say and tweet would probably include the n word and get them widespread condemnation.

If someone made the works of Ayn Rand into a film or TV show, I'm not going to watch it because I know it's going to be shoving libertarian values that lead society towards fascism down my throat. And Ayn Rand was a terrible writer aside from being a terrible person. By the same token, I don't know why any libertarians or far right people would want to watch Star Wars - it's a franchise where the political messaging has always been against their values.

tl;dr - films are a form of art, art has always been political, worrying about politics in art too much is stupid.

[Whiskey]

This thread needs that Simpsons Grandpa gif.

[nudge]

25 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

That is definitely unfair but she does not have a good interview history.

https://thatparkplace.com/upcoming-star-wars-director-sharmeen-obaid-chinoy-i-like-to-make-men-uncomfortable-i-enjoy-making-men-uncomfortable/

Well considering that just her appointment as a director of a Star Wars movie is apparently already making many men uncomfortable, I find this pretty hilarious lol. In all seriousness though, I don't really see a problem with that statement, given the context. As a journalist and filmmaker focusing heavily on women's issues, making some men uncomfortable is always gonna be on her mind. Art is often political, it provokes, challenges the status quo, and ignites conversations.

That website is pure AIDS though. "During an appearance at the Women in the World summit alongside fellow insufferable activist and director Ava DuVernay and actress Meryl Streep..." yeah, quality journalism there.

[Goku de la Boca]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

And yet misogyny has run rampant throughout human history and women still have to fight for equal rights and protections as men... basically all over the world. As a result, it's not surprising there are TV shows, films, books, etc... that have political messaging in support of equality for women.

Companies having political values or putting out political messages isn't anything new. Especially in films, which are a form of art. There's always been politics in art, in the Rennaissance... most art was actually political (even the very religious stuff). Art has famously been used for propaganda (which is political) since... probably since the concept of "art" became a thing.

As a result, it's not surprising a filmmaker puts their political values into a film. And honestly... Star Wars itself originally is a story about fighting off fascism to restore democracy. The prequels are very much about how easy it is to lose democracy and slide into fascism - with a lot of not-so-subtle criticisms of Bush and the Iraq war. So political ideas in a Star Wars film are not new either.

Feminist ideas aren't even new to Star Wars. The leader of the Rebel Alliance is Mon Mothma, a woman portrayed as a strong and respected leader fighting for freedom in the galaxy. Princess Leia needs to be rescued by Luke, Han, and Chewie... but she never seems like a weak character. She withstands getting tortured by the Empire, watches her family (and planet) get murdered in front of her eyes, and never once seems to display weakness at all before Imperial leadership. Her character is considered a feminist hero by many for good reason.

I think Disney are pretty not subtle about the way they do it... and a lot of what they do tbh feels like obvious "LOOK WE ARE INCLUSIVE AND THEREFORE GOOD" to pat themselves on the back. And then other times, like with Andor, their political messaging is really well done and brilliant. I don't think anyone likes sloppy political messaging that just seems like forcing in some sort of ideas of diversity - it's just lazy tokenism.

What I liked least about the Disney trilogy of Star Wars was the absolute dogshit writing. I didn't hate Rey because she was a woman Jedi, disliked Rey because she's a poorly written character it was fucking stupid that with barely any guidance or training she's suddenly a master at the force. If this director that "End Wokeness" is worried about can put her political messaging in line with... the traditional political messaging of Star Wars and can tell a good story that's well written, I will probably like her film. If her political messaging is sloppy tokenisms and the film is poorly written, I'll think it's shit.

But I'm not going to think it's shit because of "wokeness" - I think wokeness is an entirely meaningless term. "Oh no, some film and TV show has political messaging" - no shit, that's always been the case. If you don't like the political messaging, don't watch it. And I do think that the people who use the terms "woke" and "wokeness" as a pejorative descriptor are definitively racist and/or. They don't like the idea of people they don't believe as equal to be portrayed as equal to them in popular culture.

For instance, if the idea of Disney casting a black woman as Ariel in the Little Mermaid upset anyone... I know 100% that they are a racist. It's a fucking mermaid, why does the skin colour matter? It doesn't, it's just people being pissed off something they remember from their childhood is now depicting Ariel as someone they see as "lesser" - and they see her as lesser because they're racist. So then they say things like "Disney is woke" and "go woke, go broke" because otherwise what they'd want to say and tweet would probably include the n word and get them widespread condemnation.

If someone made the works of Ayn Rand into a film or TV show, I'm not going to watch it because I know it's going to be shoving libertarian values that lead society towards fascism down my throat. And Ayn Rand was a terrible writer aside from being a terrible person. By the same token, I don't know why any libertarians or far right people would want to watch Star Wars - it's a franchise where the political messaging has always been against their values.

tl;dr - films are a form of art, art has always been political, worrying about politics in art too much is stupid.

No it isn’t racist if they don’t want to see the little mermaid. There have been a lot of black protagonists and people wouldn’t boycott. Star Wars is an example, only a racist minority would actually boycott the new trilogy, but most went to see it, and here it’s the same deal. There are racists who’s didn’t go to see it but for most it was for another reason.

People didn’t go see the Little Mermaid because it was clear as day the movie was shifted to give a political lesson and not tell an actual story that people will be entertained by.

[Goku de la Boca]

17 minutes ago, nudge said:

Well considering that just her appointment as a director of a Star Wars movie is apparently already making many men uncomfortable, I find this pretty hilarious lol. In all seriousness though, I don't really see a problem with that statement, given the context. As a journalist and filmmaker focusing heavily on women's issues, making some men uncomfortable is always gonna be on her mind. Art is often political, it provokes, challenges the status quo, and ignites conversations.

That website is pure AIDS though. "During an appearance at the Women in the World summit alongside fellow insufferable activist and director Ava DuVernay and actress Meryl Streep..." yeah, quality journalism there.

It is 100% an issue. There is no “equal rights” if men are making women uncomfortable or vice versa. It defeats the purpose of femenism. Even if she was joking which I think is most likely, not everyone is going to interpret it like that. It is quite clearly a shocking public statement to make.

I will obviously give her a chance as well, as everyone deserves one on a new ground, but calling her an activist while unfair on one end, is what you get when you make those sort of comments in public and push it in your films on another. I disagree with it but most people forget your Oscar’s if they do not maintain a good image with the press.

[Cicero]

I've lost all interest in Star Wars. The new trilogy was shit and it left a permanent scar on the franchise for me. They did make a slight comeback with Rogue One, which for me is the 3rd best Star Wars film ever made. Solo was also a decent watch. It's no secret Disney want to create more diversity and inclusivity, but don't do it for the sake of doing it and pissing about with the plot. Rogue One is a brilliant way to go about it. Mandalorian was good for me up until season 3. Obi Wan was a major let down. Haven't seen Andor (which tbf looks something I'd like) and don't have the motivation to watch Asokha. 

Don't get me started on Marvel. Junk food cinema. I'd say after seeing Godzilla Minus One, Hollywood as a whole is looking shit. Lazy, cookie cutter plots with high production time and time again. 

Edited January 4 by Cicero

[nudge]

7 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

It is 100% an issue. There is no “equal rights” if men are making women uncomfortable or vice versa. It defeats the purpose of femenism. Even if she was joking which I think is most likely, not everyone is going to interpret it like that. It is quite clearly a shocking public statement to make.

I will obviously give her a chance as well, as everyone deserves one on a new ground, but calling her an activist while unfair on one end, is what you get when you make those sort of comments in public and push it in your films on another. I disagree with it but most people forget your Oscar’s if they do not maintain a good image with the press.

I think you're completely ignoring the context here, though. Her answer is to the host's (a man's) question about whether her work, while aiming to empower women, also targets men. To which she replies that yes, she likes to make men uncomfortable, because any significant, long lasting social change can only happen through difficult conversations and uncomfortable realizations. Her goal is not to make men uncomfortable in general because she wants them to be miserable lol, it's to make them see that maybe they themselves have those certain internalized attitudes that are the root of the problem. Which is pretty obvious when you think about the issues that she tackles in her work - women and child abuse, domestic violence, acid attacks and honour killings of women in Pakistan, rights of refugees and marginalized groups, Pakistani boys groomed in Taliban-run schools to carry out attacks against civilians, etc. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

39 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

People didn’t go see the Little Mermaid because it was clear as day the movie was shifted to give a political lesson and not tell an actual story that people will be entertained by.

What was the political lesson? That black people can be mermaids too?

And for the record, I didn't say it's racist if you didn't go see the live action Little Mermaid. I said it's racist if you cared that Disney took a mermaid cartoon character and then for the live action film cast a black woman. I didn't care to see the live action remake because I didn't want to see Disney fuck with my childhood memories. But I literally could not give a shit that a black person was cast as a mermaid in a film for kids. They could have cast any race - who fucking cares?

Mermaids aren't real.

I've just googled it and guess what... the story is the exact same. So the only political message being rejected here is a black person being cast for a fictional character who is something that doesn't exist in the real world. Anyone who seriously gave a shit about the race being cast of a fucking Disney mermaid is absolutely a racist.

Only a racist would care about that.

[Goku de la Boca]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What was the political lesson? That black people can be mermaids too?

And for the record, I didn't say it's racist if you didn't go see the live action Little Mermaid. I said it's racist if you cared that Disney took a mermaid cartoon character and then for the live action film cast a black woman. I didn't care to see the live action remake because I didn't want to see Disney fuck with my childhood memories. But I literally could not give a shit that a black person was cast as a mermaid in a film for kids. They could have cast any race - who fucking cares?

Mermaids aren't real.

I've just googled it and guess what... the story is the exact same. So the only political message being rejected here is a black person being cast for a fictional character who is something that doesn't exist in the real world. Anyone who seriously gave a shit about the race being cast of a fucking Disney mermaid is absolutely a racist.

Only a racist would care about that.

Mate I think it’s quite clear that they made the protagonist black to send a political message. That’s what people are annoyed at. As with all issues involving racism, there is definitely a group that didn’t see the movie because she was made black, but most who didn’t are annoyed at the political message they are clearly trying to give. If she was made a white man it would be the same deal.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Goku de la Boca said:

Mate I think it’s quite clear that they made the protagonist black to send a political message. That’s what people are annoyed at. As with all issues involving racism, there is definitely a group that didn’t see the movie because she was made black, but most who didn’t are annoyed at the political message they are clearly trying to give. If she was made a white man it would be the same deal.

What's the political message?

If it was a white man cast, it'd be the Little Merman (and this sounds like a funny parody). But what's the political message in making a mermaid black?

[Spike]

Racial purity is a dangerous fantasy. Being concerned about the skin colour of a fictional character is brain rot.

There is a discussion that can be had about accurate representation of historical figures in fictional settings but this isn’t it. This thread is reactionary conservatism based in irrational fears. 

[Goku de la Boca]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What's the political message?

If it was a white man cast, it'd be the Little Merman (and this sounds like a funny parody). But what's the political message in making a mermaid black?

Before I answer your question properly, I’ll ask another question. The Little Mermaid is a white protagonist. Why do they need to change it just randomly?

Just to give another example, Mulan in the original animated film was a shy woman who ended up become strong and independent by the end of the film. In the remake she was a badass from the start. This is why people going woke is making Disney lose millions. That killed off the character development from the original entirely because they wanted to push an agenda. The original wasn’t a masterpiece but from a character development point, it worked.

[Goku de la Boca]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

Racial purity is a dangerous fantasy. Being concerned about the skin colour of a fictional character is brain rot.

There is a discussion that can be had about accurate representation of historical figures in fictional settings but this isn’t it. This thread is reactionary conservatism based in irrational fears. 

I think you’re right about that coming from a psychological point of view, but people can definitely spot what is entertainment and what is politics. Disney’s president even said a while back that the company lost its focus.

[Spike]

Just now, Goku de la Boca said:

I think you’re right about that coming from a psychological point of view, but people can definitely spot what is entertainment and what is politics. Disney’s president even said a while back that the company lost its focus.

Everything is politics, everything is ideology, but not all ideology is subversive and is trying to lie or trick you. 
 

Explain to me, what in the representation of the little mermaid being black is a harmful or dangerous political statement?

[Goku de la Boca]

Just now, Spike said:

Everything is politics, everything is ideology, but not all ideology is subversive and is trying to lie or trick you. 
 

Explain to me, what in the representation of the little mermaid being black is a harmful or dangerous political statement?

It’s not about it being dangerous or harmful. I don’t think anyone believes Disney do this in a negative light. What I do believe however is that people watch movies to be entertained and disconnect from the world, but it is hard to find that in Disney these days. Some are blended in well, but they repeat the same message EVERY. FUCKING. MOVIE, some people will get tired about it.

mind you I know Disney has always repeated formulas, but when it becomes more about sending a political message, people will not take it well.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Goku de la Boca said:

It’s not about it being dangerous or harmful. I don’t think anyone believes Disney do this in a negative light. What I do believe however is that people watch movies to be entertained and disconnect from the world, but it is hard to find that in Disney these days. Some are blended in well, but they repeat the same message EVERY. FUCKING. MOVIE, some people will get tired about it.

mind you I know Disney has always repeated formulas, but when it becomes more about sending a political message, people will not take it well.

Everything is political. Everything is ideological.

the little mermaid is a patriarchal story about an oppressed young woman that trades her self expression for self determination to marry someone outside her social group. 
 

how is making the character black politicising it? Being black isn’t a political statement 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Goku de la Boca said:

Before I answer your question properly, I’ll ask another question. The Little Mermaid is a white protagonist. Why do they need to change it just randomly?

Just to give another example, Mulan in the original animated film was a shy woman who ended up become strong and independent by the end of the film. In the remake she was a badass from the start. This is why people going woke is making Disney lose millions. That killed off the character development from the original entirely because they wanted to push an agenda. The original wasn’t a masterpiece but from a character development point, it worked.

I mean, when the story of The Little Mermaid was first written, is there even a mention of her race? I don't think there is. Does it matter that in the cartoon she was white and in the live action she's black? What's the political messaging there other than "black people are equal to white people" - which is only controversial to people who are... racist.

In Mulan the animated film she starts off as strong and independent. She doesn't quite fit in 100% with cultural norms at the beginning - and the matchmaker calls her a disgrace to her family because of her independence. She then learns her father, an old man, is about to be sent to war... so she takes his sword, cuts her hair, and goes off to war in his place. That's the beginning of the film. She's independent, strong, and wants to protect her family while also bring honour to her family. That's strength and confidence.

She begins to doubt herself in training because she is physically weaker and thinks that just because she's a girl she will never have what it takes to be a good soldier. That moment of the story shows her strength, confidence, and independence take a hit. And from a character development point, she overcomes all of that in training - ultimately winning the respect of the men in the story (and all of China).

Again, I never saw the remake - but Mulan started off as a strong and independent character from the beginning in the cartoon too. Maybe the hit she takes to her self-belief doesn't happen in the live action movie, I don't know.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I can't believe you've made me explain plots and character development of fuckin' cartoon characters mate.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean, when the story of The Little Mermaid was first written, is there even a mention of her race? I don't think there is. Does it matter that in the cartoon she was white and in the live action she's black? What's the political messaging there other than "black people are equal to white people" - which is only controversial to people who are... racist.

In Mulan the animated film she starts off as strong and independent. She doesn't quite fit in 100% with cultural norms at the beginning - and the matchmaker calls her a disgrace to her family because of her independence. She then learns her father, an old man, is about to be sent to war... so she takes his sword, cuts her hair, and goes off to war in his place. That's the beginning of the film. She's independent, strong, and wants to protect her family while also bring honour to her family. That's strength and confidence.

She begins to doubt herself in training because she is physically weaker and thinks that just because she's a girl she will never have what it takes to be a good soldier. That moment of the story shows her strength, confidence, and independence take a hit. And from a character development point, she overcomes all of that in training - ultimately winning the respect of the men in the story (and all of China).

Again, I never saw the remake - but Mulan started off as a strong and independent character from the beginning in the cartoon too. Maybe the hit she takes to her self-belief doesn't happen in the live action movie, I don't know.

Mulan is also a (may have been) real person, kinda in that Robin Hood vein of uncertainty. 
 

The lack of a character arc and bad writing isn’t a politicisation of a character. The character defying social and cultural norms is, once again the character is already more political than whatever the controversy is.

[Goku de la Boca]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean, when the story of The Little Mermaid was first written, is there even a mention of her race? I don't think there is. Does it matter that in the cartoon she was white and in the live action she's black? What's the political messaging there other than "black people are equal to white people" - which is only controversial to people who are... racist.

In Mulan the animated film she starts off as strong and independent. She doesn't quite fit in 100% with cultural norms at the beginning - and the matchmaker calls her a disgrace to her family because of her independence. She then learns her father, an old man, is about to be sent to war... so she takes his sword, cuts her hair, and goes off to war in his place. That's the beginning of the film. She's independent, strong, and wants to protect her family while also bring honour to her family. That's strength and confidence.

She begins to doubt herself in training because she is physically weaker and thinks that just because she's a girl she will never have what it takes to be a good soldier. That moment of the story shows her strength, confidence, and independence take a hit. And from a character development point, she overcomes all of that in training - ultimately winning the respect of the men in the story (and all of China).

Again, I never saw the remake - but Mulan started off as a strong and independent character from the beginning in the cartoon too. Maybe the hit she takes to her self-belief doesn't happen in the live action movie, I don't know.

I expressed myself wrong. She was as you said, but they skip everything else in the remake. As for the little mermaid, there is a mention of her race. She’s a white mermaid, unless I am colourblind mate. I’m pretty sure she was white. And believe me movies that whitewash are just as bad as the other side, but it’s much less common with the big hitters at least.